Legalism doesn't help

[Elin]

Psa 119:172 "..all thy commandments are righteous" that means obeying God's commands is doing/submitting to God's righteousness (Rom 10:3) and one cannot be of God until he does God's righteousness (commandments) 1 Jn 3:10.

In Romans, Paul's uses "righteousness" in two ways, to refer to justification and to refer to sanctification.
He does not use "righteousness" to refer to God's commands.

If you insert that meaning of "righteousness" into Romans, you will misunderstand Paul's meaning.

Those Jews in Rom 10:3 were for they were doing their OWN righteousness and had not submitted/obeyed GOD'S righteousness.

Rom 4:13 "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

The promises given to Abraham were given not given through
the OT law of Moses and the flawless law-keeping that OT law required but was given to Abraham for he had an obedient,
righteous doing faith, that is, the promises were given through the right doing of Abrahams' faith (righteousness of faith)

There was no Mosaic law at the time of Abraham.
There was only the law of circumcision.

Paul excludes "doing" (works) from the cause of Abraham's righteousness (Ro 4:2-3, 5-6, 9-11).

 

[Elin]

I agree that being justified is acquittal of guilt. It does not mean one was never guilty of wrong doing but that his wrong doing is not held against him.

No verse says being justified is based on "faith only", that is your theological bias.

We are not justified by righteous works of law keeping (Ro 3:28, 4:5; Gal 2:16, 3:11; Eph 2:8-9).

James 2; Abraham was justified at the point of his obedient work in offering Issac,

Nope.

Abraham was justified in Ge 15 (v. 6).
His obedient work was not until Ge 22.

His obedient work of Ge 22 simply demonstrated the faith which had already justified him in Ge 15:6.

Rahab justified by her obedient works also

Nope, like Abraham, her obedient work demonstrated the faith which justified her.

 

[Elijah19]

None of this is said with anger or hate, but with loving warning. Sometimes reprimands have to be tough to get through appropriately... Jesus said the same thing to the Pharisees in MUCH harsher language.

 

[oldthennew]

GENESIS 26:5.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[The_highwayman]

Jesus is the righteousness of God.

Actually 2 COr 5.21 says you are the righteousness of God and Jesus was made SIN.

 

[The_highwayman]

A direct relationship with God and a study of the Word...only God knows if each of us is righteous.

God declares you righteous in 2 Cor 5.21....

 

[Hizikyah]

Paul says and I agree:

Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

 

[Elin]

GENESIS 26:5.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Does the text state that is the cause of Abraham's righteousness of Ge 15:6,

or is it a statement acknowledging his faithfulness to the covenant of Ge 17?

 

[newbirth]

Jesus is the righteousness of God.

sounds nice...yet we cannot find that phrase in scripture......Jesus became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in him...
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
God wants us to be his representation of righteousness here on earth....

 

[newbirth]

God declares you righteous in 2 Cor 5.21....

no he did not....scripture says that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him...might being the operative word...vs 15 gives an indication of what is required....

 

[john832]

Does the text state that is the cause of Abraham's righteousness of Ge 15:6,

or is it a statement acknowledging his faithfulness to the covenant of Ge 17?

What it does say is that God would complete His part of the bargain, the Covenant because of Abraham's obedience...

Gen 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries;

The birthright portion of the Covenant.

and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

The Scepter portion of the Covenant.

All for this reason...

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[notuptome]

no he did not....scripture says that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him...might being the operative word...vs 15 gives an indication of what is required....

Oh great now you accuse God of equivocation. God is all that is required. Imputation is at the determination of God alone.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[newbirth]

Does the text state that is the cause of Abraham's righteousness of Ge 15:6,

or is it a statement acknowledging his faithfulness to the covenant of Ge 17?

God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness....Abraham believed God the day God told told him to come out of his father's house....and he would make him a father of many nations...and it is only when he and his wife was old did he say to God I have no son so I will have to give a stranger my inheritance.....he did not understand God's plan but he believed it would come to pass...

 

[The_highwayman]

no he did not....scripture says that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him...might being the operative word...vs 15 gives an indication of what is required....

The greek phrase might be made means: to be made, finished

 

[Elin]

GENESIS 26:5.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Does the text state that is the cause of Abraham's righteousness of Ge 15:6,

or is it a statement acknowledging his faithfulness to the covenant of Ge 17
on which that covenant was conditioned?

What it does say is that God would complete His part of the bargain, the Covenant because of Abraham's obedience...

"As for me. . ." (Ge 17:4)

"As for you. . ." (Ge 17:9)

Gen 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries;

The birthright portion of the Covenant.

Yes, the unconditional covenantal promise of the land to Abraham (Ge 15:9-21)
and the conditional covenantal promises of Ge 17 were Isaac's birthright.

and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

The Scepter portion of the Covenant.

That is the Promise of Messiah, the seed (Ge 17:19; Gal 3:16) in whom all nations of the earth would be blessed with the gospel.
It was faith in that Promise (Christ) which was credited to them as righteousness (Ro 4:13, 16).

All for this reason...

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Yes, the covenant was conditioned on obedience (Ge 17:4, 9).

No obedience on Abraham's part, no fulfillment of the covenantal promises of Ge 17 on God's part.

 

[newbirth]

The greek phrase might be made means: to be made, finished

earlier parts of the chapter points toward that verse that there are conditions to be met and maintained...there is no indication of a declaration that you are righteous...
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

 

[newbirth]

"As for me. . ." (Ge 17:4)

"As for you. . ." (Ge 17:9)


Yes, the unconditional covenantal promise of the land to Abraham (Ge 15:9-21)
and the conditional covenantal promises of Ge 17 were Isaac's birthright.


That is the Promise of Messiah, the seed (Ge 17:19; Gal 3:16) in whom all nations of the earth would be blessed with the gospel.
It was faith in that Promise (Christ) which was credited to them as righteousness (Ro 4:13, 16).


Yes, the covenant was conditioned on obedience (Ge 17:4, 9).

No obedience on Abraham's part, no fulfillment of the covenantal promises of Ge 17 on God's part.

God had already made a covenant with Abraham in Ch 15 and that covenant was before the covenant of circumcision...the first covenant was concerning the whole world through faith....the second was concerning his bloodline...in the flesh

Gen 15..
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?


[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

vs 18 is the covenant of promise...which would include the uncircumcised....because he was not yet circumcised....

 

[Elin]

"As for me. . ." (Ge 17:4)

"As for you. . ." (Ge 17:9)

Yes, the unconditional covenantal promise of the land to Abraham (Ge 15:9-21)
and the conditional covenantal promises of Ge 17 were Isaac's birthright.

Ge 12:3 is the Promise of Messiah, the seed (Ge 17:19; Gal 3:16) in whom all nations of the earth would be blessed with the gospel.
It was faith in that Promise (Christ) which was credited to them as righteousness (Ro 4:13, 16).


Yes, the covenant of Ge 17 was conditioned on obedience (vv. 4, 9).

So no obedience on Abraham's part meant no fulfillment of the covenantal promises of Ge 17 on God's part.

God had already made a covenant with Abraham in Ch 15 and that covenant was before the covenant of circumcision...
the first covenant was concerning the whole world through faith....the second was concerning his bloodline...in the flesh

Gen 15..
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

vs 18 is the covenant of promise...which would include the uncircumcised....because he was not yet circumcised....

Ge 15:18 is the covenant of the land promise made to Abraham, not made to the "uncircumcised,"
and only to Abraham's seed (descendants) who, in fact, were circumcised.

 

[newbirth]

Ge 15:18 is the covenant of the land promise made to Abraham, not made to the "uncircumcised,"
and only to Abraham's seed (descendants) who, in fact, were circumcised.

how so when he himself was not circumcised??...he did not even know he would be circumcised...that covenant was made on the promise that his seed be as the number of the stars...as God had promised him when he first called him...

.[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
the origin of that promise is in Ch 12...
Genesis 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[oldthennew]

Elin, we appreciate your knowledge and input, you obviously
do some 'heavy-digging', thank you.

how we love Abraham's humanness.

in the account in Gen.12., where the Lord tells him to leave country and family
there doesn't seem to be any doubt in him at that point, he just picks up
and goes, no questioning about it, he obeys His voice promply
but in the Gen.15., account,
the first thing God says to him is, 'don't be afraid', then Abraham goes on
to challenge or question God saying, 'where's this child that you promised'?
so, God reassures him that he will indeed have an heir from his own body.

we see God's humor and mercy, because in Gen.26:5, He says that,
'Abraham obeyed My voice', God seems to be choosing the account in
Gen.12, to draw on - and not the Gen.15, where Abraham seems to be
very doubtful - what can we say? - the more we read, the more we
Love our Father in heaven!

after this doubting and questioning, God speaks to him once again,
and he then believes and God accounts his belief for righteousness...

we can so identify with Abraham, as after conversion the zeal that
overcomes us is amazing, seems that there's nothing that we won't do,
to glorify God - but, after awhile, down the line, our 'old nature'
says, 'things aren't working out like I thought', - what can I say but
THANK THE LORD for ABRAHAM, DAVID, PAUL, ISAIAH, JOHN.........
we all have our moments of weakness, so.....in short,
God always gets things done in spite of man, (us)...