Hebrew Roots Movement

[sparkman]

Can someone educate me on this Hebrew Roots movement?

One person posted a list of questions from 119ministries.org, although he did not provide his source.

It seems like Hebrew Roots says that a fruit of salvation is keeping the Torah or the Old Covenant. Logically this implies that if you are not keeping the Torah, including the Sabbath and festivals, you are unsaved.

In addition, it seems like there is a tendency to have a Unitarian Monotheism view.

Can someone outline how, in general, Hebrew Roots Movement is different than evangelical Christianity?

I suppose it differs amongst groups but I am just wondering in general what is taught by them, who the major personalities are, etcetera.

 

[just-me]

Can someone educate me on this Hebrew Roots movement?

One person posted a list of questions from 119ministries.org, although he did not provide his source.

It seems like Hebrew Roots says that a fruit of salvation is keeping the Torah or the Old Covenant. Logically this implies that if you are not keeping the Torah, including the Sabbath and festivals, you are unsaved.

In addition, it seems like there is a tendency to have a Unitarian Monotheism view.

Can someone outline how, in general, Hebrew Roots Movement is different than evangelical Christianity?

I suppose it differs amongst groups but I am just wondering in general what is taught by them, who the major personalities are, etcetera.

There are many factions to the movement, as I understand. I'm not a part of it, so I don''t know much about it. I understand some are not too bad, and others are a Pharisaical epitome. The Torah is good as long as humans stop trying to define it with carnal understanding. (1 Timothy 1:8)

Jesus said the following directly to the Pharisees that made the Torah a burden to many.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" Matthew 23:23

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Can someone educate me on this Hebrew Roots movement?

One person posted a list of questions from 119ministries.org, although he did not provide his source.

It seems like Hebrew Roots says that a fruit of salvation is keeping the Torah or the Old Covenant. Logically this implies that if you are not keeping the Torah, including the Sabbath and festivals, you are unsaved.

In addition, it seems like there is a tendency to have a Unitarian Monotheism view.

Can someone outline how, in general, Hebrew Roots Movement is different than evangelical Christianity?

I suppose it differs amongst groups but I am just wondering in general what is taught by them, who the major personalities are, etcetera.

Study through http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/dangersHRM.html with your open Bible, then return here to consider the subject. I found they are sometimes parallel to the "Circumcision", who showed up at the first Christian Counsel at Jerusalem in Acts 15. They are continually among us, as with the apostles.

I should caution that not all "Messianic Jews" follow anti NT scriptures. I have associated with two congregations in the USA that use the OT scriptures to introduce the New Testament, amplifying Jesus and Lord as Savior from a Christian-Jewish point of view. They used the hidden parts of the Old to reveal the New.

Unfortunately some of that genre seek to bring Christian Gentiles under the Law even today, just like from the beginning of the Church,, as cited in Acts 15, showing up challenging Paul's message wherever he went and preached. "Works unto salvation" doesn't save anyone, but requires another Messiah than Jesus.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Can someone educate me on this Hebrew Roots movement?

One person posted a list of questions from 119ministries.org, although he did not provide his source.

It seems like Hebrew Roots says that a fruit of salvation is keeping the Torah or the Old Covenant. Logically this implies that if you are not keeping the Torah, including the Sabbath and festivals, you are unsaved.

In addition, it seems like there is a tendency to have a Unitarian Monotheism view.

Can someone outline how, in general, Hebrew Roots Movement is different than evangelical Christianity?

I suppose it differs amongst groups but I am just wondering in general what is taught by them, who the major personalities are, etcetera.

It all depends on the Hebrews Roots ministry, there are some that believe that, and then there are some that do not believe that. There are also some that believe that if you are not of Jewish blood you don't have to follow Torah, but you should still respect it to the point where you are following it. Just like Christianity is split up into different sects (baptists, lutheran, evangelistic, etc) Hebrews Roots ministries are the same as well.

There is also a sad side to a majority of Hebrews Roots because a lot of them do not practice what they are preaching.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Now on top of what I said there are groups that would appear to be Hebrews Roots, but they are not. For example, the synagogue I'm a part of is a Jewish synagogue, but we do follow Yeshua as Messiah, and we recognize Yeshua is the only way to salvation. But that does not keep us from being Torah observant. We're also taught not to force what we've learned on others, or call people out and tell them they are wrong. Which is why I have the disclaimer.

 

[sparkman]

Biblelogic01 does your group teach that those Christians who never observe Torah are unsaved or spiritually inferior?

Also, do they hold the position of the Trinity in terms of orthodox Christian beliefs? It seems as if I see some indication that some Hebrew Roots people deny the Trinity or redefine it in some way different than orthodox Christianity has held. I understand that a lot end up accepting a Unitarian Monotheism and denying the deity of Christ. Others end up denying the writings of Paul as well.

 

[crossnote]

JGIG who frequents here on CC has her own blog where she specializes in exposing the HRM.

https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/

I would highly recommend.

 

[crossnote]

JGIG who frequents here on CC has her own blog where she specializes in exposing the HRM.

https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/

I would highly recommend.

Here is a helpful excerpt from her introductory page...

Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

The term “Messianic” is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

 

[Jeff_56]

(1)Can someone educate me on this Hebrew Roots movement?........
I suppose it differs amongst groups but I am just wondering in general what is taught by them, who the major personalities are, etcetera.

(1) not exactly. just in general, it seems in general that A LOT of people are seeking something from life,
that they are missing growing up ,

and with both good and bad and mixed motives, some of those people are looking into (or being pulled into? by friends/others) .... hr to see if they can find out more 'correctly' how to enjoy life the way yahweh intends....

now, to interject a good bad example..... remember richard wurmbrand ? (tortured for christ; out of the holocaust)
he sought truth until he found it. (from an old man yahweh sent him to in the mountains of switzerland or similar)
before that, and afterwards, 'others' were used or allowed by yahweh to direct his direction - his steps .... EVEN IF THEY WERE NOT BELIEVERS..... yes, even HERETICS....

richard wurmbrand found yahweh because he was seeking yahweh.

along the way, heretics were used for housing, meeting places, ability(permits) to meet, even 'protection' from gestapo type authorities.

as richard said later - yahweh used them all to direct his steps, and eventually he came to Christ Jesus Savior King and Lord; yahweh used them in directing his steps, BUT THEY COULD NOT BRING HIM TO CHRIST, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN CHRIST(they did not know CHRIST).

so, possibly, some this and some that of different groups/movements may be used by yahweh to direct people's steps/directions according to yahweh's purpose, regardless of whether or not they know Christ or abide in Him or have ever been forgiven.

 

[crossnote]

(1) not exactly. just in general, it seems in general that A LOT of people are seeking something from life,
that they are missing growing up ,

and with both good and bad and mixed motives, some of those people are looking into (or being pulled into? by friends/others) .... hr to see if they can find out more 'correctly' how to enjoy life the way yahweh intends....

now, to interject a good bad example..... remember richard wurmbrand ? (tortured for christ; out of the holocaust)
he sought truth until he found it. (from an old man yahweh sent him to in the mountains of switzerland or similar)
before that, and afterwards, 'others' were used or allowed by yahweh to direct his direction - his steps .... EVEN IF THEY WERE NOT BELIEVERS..... yes, even HERETICS....

richard wurmbrand found yahweh because he was seeking yahweh.

along the way, heretics were used for housing, meeting places, ability(permits) to meet, even 'protection' from gestapo type authorities.

as richard said later - yahweh used them all to direct his steps, and eventually he came to Christ Jesus Savior King and Lord; yahweh used them in directing his steps, BUT THEY COULD NOT BRING HIM TO CHRIST, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN CHRIST(they did not know CHRIST).

so, possibly, some this and some that of different groups/movements may be used by yahweh to direct people's steps/directions according to yahweh's purpose, regardless of whether or not they know Christ or abide in Him or have ever been forgiven.

Probably the wrong Wurmbrand who was a Romanian Pastor under Communism not the Holocaust. ..from Wiki...

Richard Wurmbrand (March 24, 1909 – February 17, 2001) was a RomanianChristian minister of Jewish descent. He was a youth during a time of anti-Semitic activity in Romania, but it was in 1948, 10 years after becoming a believer in Jesus Christ as Messiah, and daring to publicly say that Communismand Christianity were not compatible, that he experienced imprisonment and torture for his beliefs. After serving five years (1959-1964) of a second prison sentence, he was ransomed for $10,000. His colleagues in Romania urged him to leave the country and work for religious freedom from a location less personally dangerous. After spending time in Norway and England, he and his wife Sabina, who had also been imprisoned, emigrated to America and dedicated the rest of their lives to publicizing and helping Christians who are persecuted for their beliefs. He wrote more than 18 books, the most widely known being Tortured for Christ. Variations of his works have been translated into more than 60 languages. He founded the international organization Voice of the Martyrs, which continues to aid Christians around the world who are persecuted for their faith.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Biblelogic01 does your group teach that those Christians who never observe Torah are unsaved or spiritually inferior?

Also, do they hold the position of the Trinity in terms of orthodox Christian beliefs? It seems as if I see some indication that some Hebrew Roots people deny the Trinity or redefine it in some way different than orthodox Christianity has held. I understand that a lot end up accepting a Unitarian Monotheism and denying the deity of Christ. Others end up denying the writings of Paul as well.

If you're reffering to that Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit) are 3-in-1, then yes we believe in the trinity. In Torah there is a command to recognize God is one, and there is a pray called the Shema.

Shema Israel, Adonai Elehenu, Adonai Echad.
Hear O' Israel, the Lord your God is one.

Now there is more to the Shema than that, but that's the basics of it.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Biblelogic01 does your group teach that those Christians who never observe Torah are unsaved or spiritually inferior?

Also, do they hold the position of the Trinity in terms of orthodox Christian beliefs? It seems as if I see some indication that some Hebrew Roots people deny the Trinity or redefine it in some way different than orthodox Christianity has held. I understand that a lot end up accepting a Unitarian Monotheism and denying the deity of Christ. Others end up denying the writings of Paul as well.

As far as I know I have never heard a message spoken by our rabbi stating that those who do not follow Torah are unsaved. I've heard him multiple times state that Yeshua is the only way to salvation.

 

[Jeff_56]

yes, that's the wurmbrand , thank you....>>
...after the holocaust 'proper' i guess, his life/book(s) read just like living through the holocaust 'continued' ...

...Wurmbrand who was a Romanian Pastor under Communism not the Holocaust. ..from Wiki...

Richard Wurmbrand (March 24, 1909 – February 17, 2001) was a RomanianChristian minister of Jewish descent. He was a youth during a time of anti-Semitic activity in Romania, but it was in 1948, 10 years after becoming a believer in Jesus Christ as Messiah, and daring to publicly say that Communismand Christianity were not compatible, that he experienced imprisonment and torture for his beliefs. After serving five years (1959-1964) of a second prison sentence, he was ransomed for $10,000. His colleagues in Romania urged him to leave the country and work for religious freedom from a location less personally dangerous. After spending time in Norway and England, he and his wife Sabina, who had also been imprisoned, emigrated to America and dedicated the rest of their lives to publicizing and helping Christians who are persecuted for their beliefs. He wrote more than 18 books, the most widely known being Tortured for Christ. Variations of his works have been translated into more than 60 languages. He founded the international organization Voice of the Martyrs, which continues to aid Christians around the world who are persecuted for their faith.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

the hebrew roots movement is an amalgamation of many groups with varied doctrines and practices...it is impossible to categorize the entire movement...

in general the hebrew roots movement has a 'light side' and a 'dark side'...the 'light side' is very similar to messianic judaism...it appreciates the hebrew traditions and mindset without compromising the gospel...an example would be the fans of rabbi kirt schneider of 'discovering the jewish jesus'...

on the other hand the 'dark side' of the hebrew roots movement is like just about every other cult...filled with error and even heresy as well as an exclusivism that claims that 2,000 years of christians worldwide have been wrong and hellbound and that these mostly self proclaimed 'rabbis' are the few that actually teach the real truth...an example would be michael rood...

 

[JGIG]

Can someone educate me on this Hebrew Roots movement?

One person posted a list of questions from 119ministries.org, although he did not provide his source.

It seems like Hebrew Roots says that a fruit of salvation is keeping the Torah or the Old Covenant. Logically this implies that if you are not keeping the Torah, including the Sabbath and festivals, you are unsaved.

In addition, it seems like there is a tendency to have a Unitarian Monotheism view.

Can someone outline how, in general, Hebrew Roots Movement is different than evangelical Christianity?

I suppose it differs amongst groups but I am just wondering in general what is taught by them, who the major personalities are, etcetera.

The HRM is a Torah-centric, Law 'keeping' movement, and as you accurately deduced above, "It seems like Hebrew Roots says that a fruit of salvation is keeping the Torah or the Old Covenant. Logically this implies that if you are not keeping the Torah, including the Sabbath and festivals, you are unsaved."

Two major departures from Christianity:

• To accurate deduction above I would add that that they believe that if you're a believer, and they 'enlighten' you to your obligation to 'keep' Torah and you willfully reject their teaching, that you were either not really saved to begin with or will lose your salvation.

• There is a belief in the HRM that 'Yeshua is the Living Torah', as well, reducing Christ Jesus to a written history and code of law rather than the fullness of the Deity in bodily form (God in the flesh). Some even elevate Torah to godhood, giving it eternal properties and the Hebrew language the position of having actually created the universe (this belief stems from Jewish Mysticism, Luranic Kabbalah, which most HRMers don't even know they're getting their beliefs from).

Those are the two major ways that the HRM differs from Christianity, along with the more obvious things such as Feast and day keeping, dietary law keeping, tzitzit wearing, and other selected laws found in the Old Covenant.

• Many in HRM leadership come out of Fundamentalism, COGs, IFB Seventh Day, SDA, WWCG, the Way Int'l., and other Law-keeping and/or legalistic streams of belief.

• HRMers hold to a version of British Israelism, which they call the 'Two House' or 'Ephraimite' or 'Lost Tribes' doctrine. You can read more about that here, under the letter 'E', 'Articles regarding The Two House/Ephraimite Doctrine'.

The major personalities:

• Michael Rood - 'A Rood Awakening', formerly of cult, The Way, Int'l.) Lots available about this character online.
• Brad Scott - Wildbranch Ministries - stealthily teaches Kabbalah/Jewish Mysticism.
• Passion For Truth Ministries - Founded by Jim Staley. Largely internet based but with a small congregation in the St. Louis area. Teaches classic HRM theology with a mixture of weird spirituality which has resulted in the broader HRM community distancing themselves from Staley. Side note: Jim Staley will be sentenced July 29 for financial fraud committed while he was a teacher of Torah: Controversial St. Charles pastor admits defrauding elderly investors Jim Staley also has liens against him for significant tax evasion (document here).
• 119 Ministries - Headed up by 'Jon' and 'Steve', who sat under Jim Staley's teaching for a number of years before leaving PFT and expanding their own ministry. Fully internet based.
  119's method is classic thought reform techniques: tear down what people believe asking flawed questions and giving flawed information and replace those deconstructed beliefs with carefully crafted doctrines built on false premises presented as facts or constructed by asking flawed questions. MOST HRM teachers are skilled in the art of flawed/leading questions where a false dichotomy will be presented followed by more questions that deceptively lead the hearer into a paradigm of false beliefs.
• New2Torah - Zachary Bauer, who is now part of a 'Torah community' somewhere in the Arkansas hills. Fully internet based, much the same methodology of 119 Ministries, but with attitude.
• Health Watchman/Raw Life - Paul Nison, a Torah-centric health 'guru'. Promotes adult circumcision for males and typical HRM doctines.
• Shoreshim Ministries - Bill Cloud. Internet based. Teaches typical HRM doctrine and Jewish Mysticism.
• Torah Institute/Torah Zone - Lew White. Largely marginalized in the HRM community now (he has been the co-owner of a head shop which sells drug paraphernalia, sex toys, pagan worship items, etc. in Kentucky for more than 20 years. Author of 'Fossilized Customs', a staple in some HRM communities, a book based on 'The Two Babylons' by Alexander Hislop.
• Rico Cortes - Wisdom in Torah - also teaches Jewish Mysticism
• The Refiner's Fire - Headed up by Carmen Welker and Andrew Gabriel Roth. Andrew has penned his own 'translation' of the NT, called the Aramaic English New Testament (AENT). Lots of issues with the 'translation', including charges of plagiarism, no peer review, no team of translators, etc. A lone wolf effort. The AENT is the primary source of reference for The Refiner's Fire website, which draws heavily on Roth's extensive commentary from an HRM/Netzarim perspective.
• Avi Ben Mordechai - Kabbalist who denies the Deity of Christ and redefines Biblical terms to suit his theology/agenda. Not terribly popular, but many HRM teachers draw from his teaching.
• Monte Judah - Lion and Lamb ministries. An exposed false prophet and Kabbalist. Another who is not terribly popular, but many contemporary teachers draw from doctrine fashioned from Monte.
• Eddie Chumney - Hebraic Heritage Ministries. One of the oldies in the HRM business, eclipsed now by the likes of PFT and 119 Ministries. He, Rico, Bill, Brad, and Avi, and a few others are featured on the Hebraic Roots Network.

There are others, but those are some of the major players.

As for how I learned about the HRM, you can read my story here, which details how I became aware of the HRM and how Joyfully Growing In Grace came to be:

How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement


-JGIG

 

[MarcR]

Study through http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/dangersHRM.html with your open Bible, then return here to consider the subject. I found they are sometimes parallel to the "Circumcision", who showed up at the first Christian Counsel at Jerusalem in Acts 15. They are continually among us, as with the apostles.

I should caution that not all "Messianic Jews" follow anti NT scriptures. I have associated with two congregations in the USA that use the OT scriptures to introduce the New Testament, amplifying Jesus and Lord as Savior from a Christian-Jewish point of view. They used the hidden parts of the Old to reveal the New.

Unfortunately some of that genre seek to bring Christian Gentiles under the Law even today, just like from the beginning of the Church,, as cited in Acts 15, showing up challenging Paul's message wherever he went and preached. "Works unto salvation" doesn't save anyone, but requires another Messiah than Jesus.

Word_Swordsman,

Since I find most of what you post to be quite sound; I was quite surprised to see you associate yourself with this link.

IMO, which I consider to be well informed, These people are sharing their ignorance!

As I see it, the Hebrew Roots Movement is comprised of a following that is more than 95% gentiles who are putting themselves under Law with little or no understanding of Judaism. Most of them hold to a form of replacement theology.

These people promote what they call 'Paleo-Hebrew'; which, IMO, involves forcing the inherent meanings of each letter of the Hebrew words in order to give words non-standard meanings which support heretical doctrine.

Jewish believers, like me, use the words 'Messianic Jew' to maintain a tie to our ethnic heritage. We tend not only not to be legalistic; but to be anti-legalistic without being antinomian.

We tend to encourage other believers to observe the appointed times of Lev 23--NOT UNDER COMPULSION OF LAW; but as an aid in understanding many of the figurative passages in the NT.

We tend to enthusiastically support the doctrines of eternal security and Grace alone; and we have no interest in judaizing.

I can understand that you might have found the site and thought it looked informative; but the only truth I found there is that the Hebrew Roots Movement is indeed a dangerous cult.

 

[atwhatcost]

Can someone educate me on this Hebrew Roots movement?

One person posted a list of questions from 119ministries.org, although he did not provide his source.

It seems like Hebrew Roots says that a fruit of salvation is keeping the Torah or the Old Covenant. Logically this implies that if you are not keeping the Torah, including the Sabbath and festivals, you are unsaved.

In addition, it seems like there is a tendency to have a Unitarian Monotheism view.

Can someone outline how, in general, Hebrew Roots Movement is different than evangelical Christianity?

I suppose it differs amongst groups but I am just wondering in general what is taught by them, who the major personalities are, etcetera.

The only Hebrew Roots Movement that can work is using dye in your hair to hide your roots. lol

That said, yes, there has always been a thing among the Jews where they actually think they're keeping the Torah, and therefore are saved. BUT, the biggie problem is, it didn't take long before the Israelites figured out they can't keep the honest law. (As in, Moses hadn't even brought all of it down, before they were breaking it.) Therefore, they started inching away from it.

A lot of the Targums and a lot of ancient Hebrew writing is going from inching away from the actual law to missing it by miles.

By the time Jesus came, the Pharisees had ways to avoid keeping the Sabbath in very creative methods. One thing they decided couldn't be done on the Sabbath was to draw water with a rope. That's labor. BUT, a woman could tie a girdle on the Sabbath; therefore, the obvious thing to do to keep the law and get water anyway was to tie girdles together to draw water.

Another creative-law-keeping method was you couldn't walk but so far on the Sabbath.

Well, an old saying is, "Where your cloak is is your home." So the day before Sabbath, they'd take their cloaks out for a walk, and leave them at specific distance. That way they could walk far, because their cloak is right around the bend, so, right around the bend, is home. They aren't walking anywhere but to their home.

Man has always had it in our mind that we can keep the law.

God actually gave the Israelites a choice -- let me dwell with you or I'll give you my law. Well, they were already freaking from God's presence on Mt. Sinai, so they screamed, "We will do whatever you want, just as long as you don't dwell with us.

They knew, even then, that they couldn't keep the law ir God dwelling with them wouldn't have freaked them out.

How's it different? Well, we know we can't, therefore need Jesus. And even in what Jesus did he truly, literally fulfilled the law. There was a goat sacrament once a year for atonement of sin. Two goats were required. One was to be slaughtered, and the other one the Israelites put their hands on the goat, confessed their sin and then let that goat go out into the wilderness. (They may have let it off a cliff in the wilderness, since one place that law is explained, a cliff is mentioned.) That wilderness goat was the scapegoat. Jesus was our scapegoat and our sacrificial goat in one person.

They're still making up excuses why they cant. After all, why aren't they sacrificing in Jerusalem still?

 

[KohenMatt]

Can someone educate me on this Hebrew Roots movement?

I suppose you could say I'm part of the HRM, but I hesitate to use that term for many of the reasons already stated. There can be too much weirdness in parts of it. And has been stated already, there is so much variation on what is taught that you can't really lump the doctrine together in the same way you can a specific denomination.

That being said, personally......

It seems like Hebrew Roots says that a fruit of salvation is keeping the Torah or the Old Covenant. Logically this implies that if you are not keeping the Torah, including the Sabbath and festivals, you are unsaved.

Torah obedience is NOT the source of salvation, nor has it ever been. Salvation was offered and granted through Passover (a type and shadow of Jesus' sacrifice) and Israel's acceptance of it. Torah-obedience is what set Israel apart from the nations, and set-apart as holy unto God. The great thing about Torah is that it affects EVERY part of your life; there isn't a part of your life that isn't touched by God and His commandments (even how you go to the bathroom).

Now, while I definitely believe salvation isn't based on Torah, obedience to it should a be a fruit of that salvation. Just as our lives should change and be obedient to the Holy Spirit and the NT, so should our lives be changed by being obedient to the Torah (as well as the Holy Spirit and the NT).

I also recognize that all Christians are at different points of spiritual maturity, and that it isn't beneficial to demand or suggest that everyone be living their life in the exact same way. This includes the things we are obedient to, including Torah and the NT. When God places a particular service or act of obedience on your heart and spirit to do, you are responsible for being obedient to it. But unless the Spirit moves you to do it, I shouldn't expect that you have to do it. At the same time, it's callous of us to automatically dismiss obedience to the Torah as unacceptable for Christians to do.

Biblelogic01 does your group teach that those Christians who never observe Torah are unsaved or spiritually inferior?

Again, no salvation through Torah. But your question about spiritual inferiority can be a troublesome idea. Again, while I recognize that people are at different points of spiritual maturity, Jesus DOES say this:

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." -Matthew 5:19

I'll leave that to others to work through.

Also, do they hold the position of the Trinity in terms of orthodox Christian beliefs? It seems as if I see some indication that some Hebrew Roots people deny the Trinity or redefine it in some way different than orthodox Christianity has held.

The doctrine of the Trinity is also varied in it's understanding. When the idea of the Trinity starts saying that there are 3 distinct and separate manifestations of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, I have a problem with it. There is only 1 God, and when we see any of those "personalities" in Scripture, it is the exact same God. The same God who gave the Torah is the same Jesus that was sacrificed and is the same Holy Spirit that indwells us today. And all 3 have existed at the same time. Which means Jesus gave the Torah and the Holy Spirit was just as much of a source of it.

I understand that a lot end up accepting a Unitarian Monotheism and denying the deity of Christ. Others end up denying the writings of Paul as well.

Perhaps there are some sects of the HRM that deny the deity of Jesus. But, Jesus IS God. End of story.

And perhaps there are some sects of the HRM that deny Paul's writings. Personally, Paul's writings are inspired by God and given to Him from God. My only contention is not with Paul himself, but how we interpret what he says. Jesus IS God; Paul isn't. Which means the Torah and Jesus' words need to be the original source of life and truth. Paul offers a commentary on those words which are completely true, but we need to understand the original source, and THEN study Paul's relationship to it. Not vice versa.

As a point of interest, I've started hearing the following idea within Christianity and even on this forum: "Jesus' words were not intended for the Gentiles, but only Jews. Paul's writings are for the Gentiles and should be the ones we follow."

There you go. Just one man's understanding of the HRM.

 

[Chica]

Here is a helpful excerpt from her introductory page...

Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

The term “Messianic” is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

It's interesting like you said:

Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics.

 

[sparkman]

The doctrine of the Trinity is also varied in it's understanding. When the idea of the Trinity starts saying that there are 3 distinct and separate manifestations of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, I have a problem with it. There is only 1 God, and when we see any of those "personalities" in Scripture, it is the exact same God. The same God who gave the Torah is the same Jesus that was sacrificed and is the same Holy Spirit that indwells us today. And all 3 have existed at the same time. Which means Jesus gave the Torah and the Holy Spirit was just as much of a source of it.



Perhaps there are some sects of the HRM that deny the deity of Jesus. But, Jesus IS God. End of story.

Would your view of the Trinity hold to the distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Or is there a tendency to deny the distinct Personhood? If so, would this be typical? I have heard that some Hebrew Roots people tend toward Unitarian Monotheists like the Jews. I am wondering if the 119ministries guys hold this view.