Hebrew Roots Movement

[KohenMatt]

Would your view of the Trinity hold to the distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Or is there a tendency to deny the distinct Personhood? If so, would this be typical? I have heard that some Hebrew Roots people tend toward Unitarian Monotheists like the Jews. I am wondering if the 119ministries guys hold this view.

I haven't delved into the subject too much, but at first thought, I would say I don't believe in 3 distinct persons, but just 1 God. But again, I haven't spent much time on it and its a discussion that's never warranted a lot of debate in my mind. I don't think it would change my beliefs practically one way or the other.

And I don't know anything about 119 ministries. Actually, I've never heard of them until this thread.

 

[crossnote]

I haven't delved into the subject too much, but at first thought, I would say I don't believe in 3 distinct persons, but just 1 God. But again, I haven't spent much time on it and its a discussion that's never warranted a lot of debate in my mind. I don't think it would change my beliefs practically one way or the other.

And I don't know anything about 119 ministries. Actually, I've never heard of them until this thread.

If you don't believe in 3 distinct Persons (yet one God) how would you not say that the Father is the Son, the Son is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Father (modalism) etc.?

 

[KohenMatt]

If you don't believe in 3 distinct Persons (yet one God) how would you not say that the Father is the Son, the Son is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Father (modalism) etc.?

I do say that the Father is the Son, the Son is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Father. I just don't believe they're as distinct and separate as some people say.

 

[crossnote]

I do say that the Father is the Son, the Son is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Father. I just don't believe they're as distinct and separate as some people say.

So you think that when the Son prays to the Father as in John 17, He is actually talking to Himself?

 

[KohenMatt]

So you think that when the Son prays to the Father as in John 17, He is actually talking to Himself?

To some extent, yes. But like I said, I haven't really delved into that topic very much, so I'm not tremendously passionate either way.

 

[sparkman]

I think there's a tendency amongst Hebrew Roots people to "progress" to a Unitarian Monotheistic belief of the nature of God, from what I've heard so far. The nearer to Judaism the better, in their eyes. That's one reason I would never seriously consider them.

 

[KohenMatt]

I think there's a tendency amongst Hebrew Roots people to "progress" to a Unitarian Monotheistic belief of the nature of God, from what I've heard so far. The nearer to Judaism the better, in their eyes. That's one reason I would never seriously consider them.

I agree. There is a big difference between traditional Judaism and the Torah as God set forth. I don't want to do what people tell me I should do. I want to do what God tells me to do.

 

[Elin]

(1) not exactly. just in general, it seems in general that A LOT of people are seeking something from life,
that they are missing growing up ,

and with both good and bad and mixed motives, some of those people are looking into (or being pulled into? by friends/others) .... hr to see if they can find out more 'correctly' how to enjoy life the way yahweh intends....

now, to interject a good bad example..... remember richard wurmbrand ? (tortured for christ; out of the holocaust)
he sought truth until he found it. (from an old man yahweh sent him to in the mountains of switzerland or similar)
before that, and afterwards, 'others' were used or allowed by yahweh to direct his direction - his steps .... EVEN IF THEY WERE NOT BELIEVERS..... yes, even HERETICS....

richard wurmbrand found yahweh because he was seeking yahweh.

along the way, heretics were used for housing, meeting places, ability(permits) to meet, even 'protection' from gestapo type authorities.

as richard said later - yahweh used them all to direct his steps, and eventually he came to Christ Jesus Savior King and Lord; yahweh used them in directing his steps, BUT THEY COULD NOT BRING HIM TO CHRIST, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN CHRIST(they did not know CHRIST).

so, possibly, some this and some that of different groups/movements may be used by yahweh to direct people's steps/directions according to yahweh's purpose,

God's purpose is belief in Jesus of Nazareth as the Way (not the law), the Truth (by faith) and the Life (not by law keeping).

regardless of whether or not they know Christ or abide in Him or have ever been forgiven.

The issue is not people, the issue is belief of truth.

I do not note Wurmbrand being helped by any religious beliefs apart from the gospel.

 

[sparkman]

Matt, if you ever decide it's worthwhile to do the study, I'd suggest the book Forgotten Trinity by James White. It's the best book I've seen and isn't very lengthy. It is for a normal reader. I'm not arguing about this issue, just suggesting a resource.

 

[KohenMatt]

Matt, if you ever decide it's worthwhile to do the study, I'd suggest the book Forgotten Trinity by James White. It's the best book I've seen and isn't very lengthy. It is for a normal reader. I'm not arguing about this issue, just suggesting a resource.

Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[Rhythm801]

Can someone educate me on this Hebrew Roots movement?

One person posted a list of questions from 119ministries.org, although he did not provide his source.

It seems like Hebrew Roots says that a fruit of salvation is keeping the Torah or the Old Covenant. Logically this implies that if you are not keeping the Torah, including the Sabbath and festivals, you are unsaved.

In addition, it seems like there is a tendency to have a Unitarian Monotheism view.

Can someone outline how, in general, Hebrew Roots Movement is different than evangelical Christianity?

I suppose it differs amongst groups but I am just wondering in general what is taught by them, who the major personalities are, etcetera.

I believe that to understand more fully the New Testament you need to view it through the lens of the old testament . You don't pick up a book from the library and read about half of it and tell me what the author was trying to say. Same token, don't pretend to know what Yahweh was trying to say without weighing it against the Old Testament.

I believe the real Hebrew roots movement might come with a purer form of worship of Yahweh . After all Yahshua was Jewish and visited the synagogue too. He more than likely spoke two or maybe three languages too? I just offer food for thought too.

 

[sparkman]

I believe that to understand more fully the New Testament you need to view it through the lens of the old testament . You don't pick up a book from the library and read about half of it and tell me what the author was trying to say. Same token, don't pretend to know what Yahweh was trying to say without weighing it against the Old Testament.

I believe the real Hebrew roots movement might come with a purer form of worship of Yahweh . After all Yahshua was Jewish and visited the synagogue too. He more than likely spoke two or maybe three languages too? I just offer food for thought too.

I agree that a knowledge of the Old Testament is essential to understanding Scripture well. Some would say you need to view the lesser revelation (the Old Testament) in light of the greater revelation (the New Testament,and Jesus Christ), though.

Here's another thing I'm wondering. Do the guys who teach in the Hebrew Roots movement tend to exalt themselves as authority figures, and claim that Scripture can really only be understood well by being taught by them? In other words, is there some sort of priesthood role that they try to impose? Does it tend to be a sort of dominance struggle with them, in trying to bring others under their control?

I realize we are talking about a large movement and generalizations wouldn't apply to each individual.

Has anyone heard of these books or authors? The content might be applicable to this discussion. A pastor with a degree from Moody Bible Institute and a master's degree in Jewish Studies recommended them. He is a very sharp person.

The Missing Link in Systematic Theology by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum

Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures, Meno Kalisher

Thanks for all the replies.

Robert

 

[Elin]

I believe that to understand more fully the New Testament you need to view it through the lens of the old testament . You don't pick up a book from the library and read about half of it and tell me what the author was trying to say. Same token, don't pretend to know what Yahweh was trying to say without weighing it against the Old Testament.

I believe the real Hebrew roots movement might come with a purer form of worship of Yahweh . After all Yahshua was Jewish and visited the synagogue too. He more than likely spoke two or maybe three languages too? I just offer food for thought too.

There is no purer form of worship of God than the new covenant ordinances in which we participate in the benefits of the realities themselves, and not in their weak and useless (Heb 7:18) shadows
(Col 2:17; Heb 10:1) of the old covenant.

Nor is any other form of worship authorized by God for the new covenant.

It is not for us to improve on God's new covenant ordinances of worship.

 

[Rhythm801]

I agree that a knowledge of the Old Testament is essential to understanding Scripture well. Some would say you need to view the lesser revelation (the Old Testament) in light of the greater revelation (the New Testament,and Jesus Christ), though.

Here's another thing I'm wondering. Do the guys who teach in the Hebrew Roots movement tend to exalt themselves as authority figures, and claim that Scripture can really only be understood well by being taught by them? In other words, is there some sort of priesthood role that they try to impose? Does it tend to be a sort of dominance struggle with them, in trying to bring others under their control?

I realize we are talking about a large movement and generalizations wouldn't apply to each individual.

Has anyone heard of these books or authors? The content might be applicable to this discussion. A pastor with a degree from Moody Bible Institute and a master's degree in Jewish Studies recommended them. He is a very sharp person.

The Missing Link in Systematic Theology by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum

Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures, Meno Kalisher

Thanks for all the replies.

Robert

What I think is that to many people think that God is this cruel dictator that is going to zap you if you get out of line. And yet sometimes to try and tow that line sometimes it gets hard to do. And we all fail ourselves sometimes just as much as we do others. It had to be a struggle back then just to survive I imagine. Then had no running water, no refrigerators and the food maybe was going bad as well. What about spices ? Could you imagine having mana all those years and no complaints too? Maybe I would have complained too? Every day eating some sort of bread in the wilderness. It would seem to me a drab diet at best. lol

 

[sparkman]

What I think is that to many people think that God is this cruel dictator that is going to zap you if you get out of line. And yet sometimes to try and tow that line sometimes it gets hard to do. And we all fail ourselves sometimes just as much as we do others. It had to be a struggle back then just to survive I imagine. Then had no running water, no refrigerators and the food maybe was going bad as well. What about spices ? Could you imagine having mana all those years and no complaints too? Maybe I would have complained too? Every day eating some sort of bread in the wilderness. It would seem to me a drab diet at best. lol

They did get quail as well..but they weren't even satisfied with that either

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I do say that the Father is the Son, the Son is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Father. I just don't believe they're as distinct and separate as some people say.

if you study the doctrine of the trinity you will find that people tend to err in one of two directions...the ancient athanasian creed mentions and refutes both types of nontrinitarian error...

the first mistake is when people overemphasize the distinctness of the three persons...insisting that they are separate beings bordering on a teaching of three Gods...

the second mistake is when people underemphasize the distinctness of the three persons...blurring the lines between them as if they are just three different titles or roles of the same divine person...

 

[JGIG]

I agree that a knowledge of the Old Testament is essential to understanding Scripture well. Some would say you need to view the lesser revelation (the Old Testament) in light of the greater revelation (the New Testament,and Jesus Christ), though.

Here's another thing I'm wondering. Do the guys who teach in the Hebrew Roots movement tend to exalt themselves as authority figures, and claim that Scripture can really only be understood well by being taught by them? In other words, is there some sort of priesthood role that they try to impose? Does it tend to be a sort of dominance struggle with them, in trying to bring others under their control?

I realize we are talking about a large movement and generalizations wouldn't apply to each individual.

Has anyone heard of these books or authors? The content might be applicable to this discussion. A pastor with a degree from Moody Bible Institute and a master's degree in Jewish Studies recommended them. He is a very sharp person.

The Missing Link in Systematic Theology by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum

Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures, Meno Kalisher

Thanks for all the replies.

Robert

Elitism and arrogance are fruits of Law-keeping doctrine, whether it be in the HRM, WWCG, or any other Law-keeping sect.

And I want to encourage folks of this very important thing:

You don't need to have the HRM or any other false belief system all figured out in order to recognize/refute them. From JGIG the blog:

As often happens on forums, questions come up to try to clarify the Law/Grace issue. The following is a post posed by one person trying to sort out if there are differences between those who are part of the modern ‘Hebrew Roots Movement’ and the Judaizers that Paul spoke about in his letter to the Galatians. Following is her inquiry and my response:

​

Originally Posted by LabbyLove –>
I’m trying really hard to understand this Hebrew Roots information that I get in bits and pieces. You know I struggle with the Sabbath and what to do with that law…
Anyway, if you follow HRM or are VERY familiar with its teachings, then would you please tell me what the DIFFERENCES are between people who follow some laws some as dietary, circumcism, sabbath, passover observances, etc., (which I think are HRM) and those that were named Judaizers in Paul’s day.

Did Judaizers believe that you had to follow the laws in order to be saved, or once you were saved by Jesus Christ that you had to follow the laws? Did they equate following the laws with gaining salvation, or were they okay with people becoming Christians, but felt they needed to follow Jewish laws to be in line with God’s will? What if they didn’t follow the laws, did they feel salvation would be lost?

It seems the Gentile Christians were told after the Council at Jerusalem that they only needed to follow the four rules set before them by the apostles, thus freeing them from following all of the mosaic law. Trying also to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians about all of this.

My impression is that HRM differs from the original Judaizers in that they don’t feel it’s necessary, but helpful or loving to follow some of the law? Do I have that right?



​

From JGIG:
Hi LabbyLove,
Bank tellers, when trained to identify counterfeit money, are trained first to become thoroughly familiar with genuine money. They handle it, examine it, study it, becoming so familiar with it’s look and feel that when a counterfeit bill comes across their path, something will feel/seem ‘off’ enough to them that they will examine it further.

That’s how it was for me when the concepts/teachings in the Hebrew Roots Movement came across my path. The perspective was fascinating; the motives of its followers seemed to be pure. After all they were just doing what they were doing because they love and want to obey and please God, right? Yet something seemed a little ‘off’ to me, so I determined to learn more.

As a Christian I understood how the Feasts of God, Sabbaths and other observances in Mosaic Covenant Law pointed to Christ and for some to decide to celebrate them now in order to learn the beauty of how the Law points to Christ did not disturb me at all.

I have Jewish/Hebrew Christian friends who maintain their heritage and traditions of Feasts and Days and dietary observances. They see the beauty of God’s provision of the Law for Israel and take great joy in celebrating Jesus, the Fulfillment of what the Law pointed to. It is no longer Law to them now, however. Their lives revolve around the Reality in Christ, not around the shadows of the Law.

Then I started hearing things like,

“If you really love God, you will keep His Laws – all of them”,
“If you don’t keep God’s Law, you’ll be called least in the kingdom”,
“If you’re really saved, you’ll keep the Law”,
“Jesus is coming back for the Bride – if you don’t keep the Law you aren’t part of the Bride”

. . . and more. You may have heard similar things said in a more ’round-about way.

As I heard those things and heard more teaching from those who had chosen Torah observance, many Scriptures came to mind. The teachings that I was hearing were not matching up with what my heart had hidden deep within me – the Word. It is not the ‘teachings from pastors or church fathers’ or the ‘brainwashing of the modern church’ which cause me to disagree with the teachings I have discerned as false, it is the Word hidden in my heart! I’d see a teaching and the thought process behind it (which more often than not seemed reasonable on the surface), but it wouldn’t sit right in my heart. The words of Scripture would come to mind, I’d go look them up, and sure enough, error was revealed in whatever particular teaching by a plain reading of the Word.
It seems that you may be experiencing some of the same from what you say here:

It seems the Gentile Christians were told after the Council at Jerusalem that they only needed to follow the four rules set before them by the apostles, thus freeing them from following all of the mosaic law. Trying also to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians about all of this.

My impression is that HRM differs from the original Judaizers in that they don’t feel it’s necessary, but helpful or loving to follow some of the law? Do I have that right?


​

Judaizers, in one form or another, have been around since the infancy of the Body of Christ. They come in many forms . . . the sect that Paul addressed directly in the letter to the Galatians, those who have more concern about religious observance than about abiding in Christ, and more recently, those in the HRM streams of thought who preach adherence to Mosaic Covenant Law in addition to the simplicity of the Gospel.

In short, and in principle, a Judaizer is anyone who adds to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To be saved or to stay saved, it’s Jesus + (insert pet theology here). While the term Judaizer definitely lends itself to the Law and traditions given to Israel, the spirit behind Judaizing takes many forms and its intent is to take the believer’s focus away from the complete work of Christ and abiding and resting in Him and to put the believer’s focus and efforts into what they must do in order to be pleasing to God and remain in His good graces.

So while the ‘mechanics’ of Judaizing or legalistic movements may be different from group to group and age to age, the underlying intent of the Enemy is the same: To take your focus off of Jesus and to turn your focus back to yourself (what do I have to do to please God, what do I have to do to receive status in the kingdom, what do I have to do to stay saved, what must I do to be a part of the Bride, etc.).

The focus becomes very much on the flesh, and very little on the Spirit.

As you read through the writings to the Body of Christ after Pentecost, you will see over and over how God shifts focus from the Law and the flesh to Jesus and the Spirit. It is not that Law ceases to be, it is that our relationship to Law changes. We die to the Law in Christ, and the Law becomes obsolete in Christ. The message is clear.

If someone has to start telling you that the Scriptures don’t really say what they clearly say and then they have to build linguistic or theological contraptions to make their point, then red flags should start going up.

Be careful, as you consume HRM information in bits and pieces, that you don’t become as the metaphorical ‘frog in the pot’. Bit by bit is how many become deceived; if given the whole picture up front, many would reject false belief systems outright. For some, other elements come into the picture, such as discontent with churchianity, woundedness, etc. Read HERE for the progression of how it goes for many who choose Torah pursuance.

Keep the Law to be saved?
Keep the Law to stay saved?
Keep the Law to prove you’re saved?
Keep the Law to be blessed?
Keep the Law to not be cursed?
You can only please God by keeping His Law as given to Moses?
The only way to know and to stay in the will of God is to keep the Law?
You’ll be the least in the kingdom if you don’t keep Mosaic Covenant Law?

Yep, you will find a number of or all of those beliefs and more in the HRM.

I know you asked for a simple list of differences, and I’m sorry I could not do that for you.
The key is actually simpler than a list.

You just need to stay in the Word and become well grounded about who you are in Christ. Even if you were to just go through the New Testament and read through, paying special attention to every time the text says, “In Christ”, “Through Christ”, “Because of Christ”, “In Him”, etc. and keep in mind the HRM teachings you have under your belt thus far, you might find some confusion clearing up and begin to see the difference in focus between what you’re seeing plainly written in the Bible and what you hear from HRM sources.

You may also begin to see why one of the tenets in the HRM is that Yeshua is the Living Torah. That is a key false teaching in the HRM designed to take your focus off of the Living Christ Who did the work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the sending of His promised Holy Spirit and to put your focus on Torah instead. It is the attempt to replace the Living Christ with the written Law. Did Torah do all the things that Christ did? No! Then how can Yeshua be the Living Torah?

Torah is a partial revelation of God’s Word. Yeshua/Jesus is the FULL and LIVING expression of God Who bled and died and rose again to fulfill the promises of God.

I’m sorry this is so long. There were several points I thought important to make. It sounds like as you’re reading things like Acts 15 and Galatians for what they plainly say, you’re seeing some disconnects in what you’re learning from HRM sources. Those I know (and I know quite a few now) who have come out of the HRM, tell me that that’s exactly how it happened for them: When they just sat down with the Word and read what it says to the Body of Christ, it was clear to them that they truly were not under Law but under Grace. There are some testimonies from some former HRMers HERE, as well a more information about the HRM if you want to take a look.

When one’s focus remains on the finished work of Christ and who we are in Christ, so many things become so clear. May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

Blessings,
-JGIG
(Hebrew Roots Movement – Are They Judaizers?)

 

[KohenMatt]

if you study the doctrine of the trinity you will find that people tend to err in one of two directions...the ancient athanasian creed mentions and refutes both types of nontrinitarian error...

the first mistake is when people overemphasize the distinctness of the three persons...insisting that they are separate beings bordering on a teaching of three Gods...

the second mistake is when people underemphasize the distinctness of the three persons...blurring the lines between them as if they are just three different titles or roles of the same divine person...

I agree wholeheartedly. That's another reason why I've spent little time getting into the specifics of the matter. I'd rather not get caught up in one extreme or the other.

 

[sparkman]

Hi Judy,

I really like this post.

Regarding the "frog in the pot" analogy, it is an excellent one. Buying into the Sabbath was only a first step with Armstrongism. Really whacky teachings came later. It's a gradual process of indoctrination. These groups don't tell you everything up front.

In the end, though, people are responsible for their own lives. You can tell them the dangers, but if they don't care enough to question their thinking and insist on the correctness of it, there's not much you can do. Sometimes I think God allows self righteous people to be enslaved by legalism so that they can get their belly full of it and turn to Him and be regenerated.

The other remarks about the Living Torah were interesting too. Reducing Jesus Christ to a written code is ridiculous. He was a full revelation of God's holiness, whereas the Law was only a faint glimmer. Most of the Law was about specific applications to ancient Israel, with underlying moral principles that are valuable, but it was largely about specific applications.

Scripture does call Jesus the Word, but this is more oriented around a Greek concept involving the Logos as the ordering force that created all things, not the Living Torah analogy they pour into it. Jesus was the full revelation of God and his holiness, not some animated written code.

Elitism and arrogance are fruits of Law-keeping doctrine, whether it be in the HRM, WWCG, or any other Law-keeping sect.

And I want to encourage folks of this very important thing:

You don't need to have the HRM or any other false belief system all figured out in order to recognize/refute them. From JGIG the blog:

As often happens on forums, questions come up to try to clarify the Law/Grace issue. The following is a post posed by one person trying to sort out if there are differences between those who are part of the modern ‘Hebrew Roots Movement’ and the Judaizers that Paul spoke about in his letter to the Galatians. Following is her inquiry and my response:

​

Originally Posted by LabbyLove –>
I’m trying really hard to understand this Hebrew Roots information that I get in bits and pieces. You know I struggle with the Sabbath and what to do with that law…
Anyway, if you follow HRM or are VERY familiar with its teachings, then would you please tell me what the DIFFERENCES are between people who follow some laws some as dietary, circumcism, sabbath, passover observances, etc., (which I think are HRM) and those that were named Judaizers in Paul’s day.

Did Judaizers believe that you had to follow the laws in order to be saved, or once you were saved by Jesus Christ that you had to follow the laws? Did they equate following the laws with gaining salvation, or were they okay with people becoming Christians, but felt they needed to follow Jewish laws to be in line with God’s will? What if they didn’t follow the laws, did they feel salvation would be lost?

It seems the Gentile Christians were told after the Council at Jerusalem that they only needed to follow the four rules set before them by the apostles, thus freeing them from following all of the mosaic law. Trying also to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians about all of this.

My impression is that HRM differs from the original Judaizers in that they don’t feel it’s necessary, but helpful or loving to follow some of the law? Do I have that right?



​

From JGIG:
Hi LabbyLove,
Bank tellers, when trained to identify counterfeit money, are trained first to become thoroughly familiar with genuine money. They handle it, examine it, study it, becoming so familiar with it’s look and feel that when a counterfeit bill comes across their path, something will feel/seem ‘off’ enough to them that they will examine it further.

That’s how it was for me when the concepts/teachings in the Hebrew Roots Movement came across my path. The perspective was fascinating; the motives of its followers seemed to be pure. After all they were just doing what they were doing because they love and want to obey and please God, right? Yet something seemed a little ‘off’ to me, so I determined to learn more.

As a Christian I understood how the Feasts of God, Sabbaths and other observances in Mosaic Covenant Law pointed to Christ and for some to decide to celebrate them now in order to learn the beauty of how the Law points to Christ did not disturb me at all.

I have Jewish/Hebrew Christian friends who maintain their heritage and traditions of Feasts and Days and dietary observances. They see the beauty of God’s provision of the Law for Israel and take great joy in celebrating Jesus, the Fulfillment of what the Law pointed to. It is no longer Law to them now, however. Their lives revolve around the Reality in Christ, not around the shadows of the Law.

Then I started hearing things like,

“If you really love God, you will keep His Laws – all of them”,
“If you don’t keep God’s Law, you’ll be called least in the kingdom”,
“If you’re really saved, you’ll keep the Law”,
“Jesus is coming back for the Bride – if you don’t keep the Law you aren’t part of the Bride”

. . . and more. You may have heard similar things said in a more ’round-about way.

As I heard those things and heard more teaching from those who had chosen Torah observance, many Scriptures came to mind. The teachings that I was hearing were not matching up with what my heart had hidden deep within me – the Word. It is not the ‘teachings from pastors or church fathers’ or the ‘brainwashing of the modern church’ which cause me to disagree with the teachings I have discerned as false, it is the Word hidden in my heart! I’d see a teaching and the thought process behind it (which more often than not seemed reasonable on the surface), but it wouldn’t sit right in my heart. The words of Scripture would come to mind, I’d go look them up, and sure enough, error was revealed in whatever particular teaching by a plain reading of the Word.
It seems that you may be experiencing some of the same from what you say here:

It seems the Gentile Christians were told after the Council at Jerusalem that they only needed to follow the four rules set before them by the apostles, thus freeing them from following all of the mosaic law. Trying also to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians about all of this.

My impression is that HRM differs from the original Judaizers in that they don’t feel it’s necessary, but helpful or loving to follow some of the law? Do I have that right?


​

Judaizers, in one form or another, have been around since the infancy of the Body of Christ. They come in many forms . . . the sect that Paul addressed directly in the letter to the Galatians, those who have more concern about religious observance than about abiding in Christ, and more recently, those in the HRM streams of thought who preach adherence to Mosaic Covenant Law in addition to the simplicity of the Gospel.

In short, and in principle, a Judaizer is anyone who adds to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To be saved or to stay saved, it’s Jesus + (insert pet theology here). While the term Judaizer definitely lends itself to the Law and traditions given to Israel, the spirit behind Judaizing takes many forms and its intent is to take the believer’s focus away from the complete work of Christ and abiding and resting in Him and to put the believer’s focus and efforts into what they must do in order to be pleasing to God and remain in His good graces.

So while the ‘mechanics’ of Judaizing or legalistic movements may be different from group to group and age to age, the underlying intent of the Enemy is the same: To take your focus off of Jesus and to turn your focus back to yourself (what do I have to do to please God, what do I have to do to receive status in the kingdom, what do I have to do to stay saved, what must I do to be a part of the Bride, etc.).

The focus becomes very much on the flesh, and very little on the Spirit.

As you read through the writings to the Body of Christ after Pentecost, you will see over and over how God shifts focus from the Law and the flesh to Jesus and the Spirit. It is not that Law ceases to be, it is that our relationship to Law changes. We die to the Law in Christ, and the Law becomes obsolete in Christ. The message is clear.

If someone has to start telling you that the Scriptures don’t really say what they clearly say and then they have to build linguistic or theological contraptions to make their point, then red flags should start going up.

Be careful, as you consume HRM information in bits and pieces, that you don’t become as the metaphorical ‘frog in the pot’. Bit by bit is how many become deceived; if given the whole picture up front, many would reject false belief systems outright. For some, other elements come into the picture, such as discontent with churchianity, woundedness, etc. Read HERE for the progression of how it goes for many who choose Torah pursuance.

Keep the Law to be saved?
Keep the Law to stay saved?
Keep the Law to prove you’re saved?
Keep the Law to be blessed?
Keep the Law to not be cursed?
You can only please God by keeping His Law as given to Moses?
The only way to know and to stay in the will of God is to keep the Law?
You’ll be the least in the kingdom if you don’t keep Mosaic Covenant Law?

Yep, you will find a number of or all of those beliefs and more in the HRM.

I know you asked for a simple list of differences, and I’m sorry I could not do that for you.
The key is actually simpler than a list.

You just need to stay in the Word and become well grounded about who you are in Christ. Even if you were to just go through the New Testament and read through, paying special attention to every time the text says, “In Christ”, “Through Christ”, “Because of Christ”, “In Him”, etc. and keep in mind the HRM teachings you have under your belt thus far, you might find some confusion clearing up and begin to see the difference in focus between what you’re seeing plainly written in the Bible and what you hear from HRM sources.

You may also begin to see why one of the tenets in the HRM is that Yeshua is the Living Torah. That is a key false teaching in the HRM designed to take your focus off of the Living Christ Who did the work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the sending of His promised Holy Spirit and to put your focus on Torah instead. It is the attempt to replace the Living Christ with the written Law. Did Torah do all the things that Christ did? No! Then how can Yeshua be the Living Torah?

Torah is a partial revelation of God’s Word. Yeshua/Jesus is the FULL and LIVING expression of God Who bled and died and rose again to fulfill the promises of God.

I’m sorry this is so long. There were several points I thought important to make. It sounds like as you’re reading things like Acts 15 and Galatians for what they plainly say, you’re seeing some disconnects in what you’re learning from HRM sources. Those I know (and I know quite a few now) who have come out of the HRM, tell me that that’s exactly how it happened for them: When they just sat down with the Word and read what it says to the Body of Christ, it was clear to them that they truly were not under Law but under Grace. There are some testimonies from some former HRMers HERE, as well a more information about the HRM if you want to take a look.

When one’s focus remains on the finished work of Christ and who we are in Christ, so many things become so clear. May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

Blessings,
-JGIG
(Hebrew Roots Movement – Are They Judaizers?)

 

[MarcR]

The only correction I would like to offer; is that while many Jewish believers, myself included, continue to observe the appointed times of Lev 23 as figures and illustrations of various aspects of Jesus ministry on earth; few if any of us keep the dietary laws or are Torah observant; and any Jewish believer who, understands Eph 2:8-10, will not try to put believers under Law.


The HRM is NOT A JEWISH THING; in fact they are almost entirely Gentiles masquerading as Jews; and most of them hold to some form of replacement theology.


The only two truly Jewish Messianic groups that I am aware of are:

Friends of Israel, an outgrowth of American Board of Mission to the Jews.

Chosen People, a ministry started and led by Mitch and Zahavah Glasser, who were members of First Covenant Church of San Francisco, when I met them.



Neither of these are legalistic; and both encourage their members to attend and serve in Biblically sound mainstream churches.