Hebrew Roots Movement

sparkman · Jun 5, 2015

Hi Marc,

Thanks for your remarks.

I have another question that perhaps you or someone can answer. Maybe it's already been answered by someone.

Is there an attempt for Hebrew Roots people to claim that they are physical descendents of Jacob? Herbert Armstrong taught British Israelism in an attempt to do that. In fact, he claimed to be a descendant of King David himself. I guess if you pay someone enough money to do your geneology, you can get them to say anything you want.

It's funny how Scripture specifically addresses not getting involved in geneology things yet he did it anyways.

While racism was not supposed to be a factor in Worldwide Church of God, I know that on occasion this British Israelism did cause some degree of hard feelings amongst members of different racial backgrounds, and I wouldn't doubt if it affected the ministry selection process in earlier years. The idea was that the ministry was mostly formed of those who were descendants of Levi, so I am guessing that implied a preference for white men in their theology.

I don't think this is a big factor with Hebrew Roots from what I've heard so far, but I wonder if the racism thing does show up there.

Elin · Jun 5, 2015

atwhatcost said:

Nowhere in Scripture did God give Israel a choice to reject his law.

That is pure human fantasy.

Nowhere does Scripture state that Israel didn't want God to dwell with them.

That is pure human fantasy, found nowhere in the word of God written.

Elin · Jun 5, 2015

KohenMatt said:

Salvation from God's wrath on Israel's guilt of sin was not granted through Passover.

It was granted by the righteousness of faith (Ge 15:6), in anticipation of the coming payment for it by Jesus' propitiation (Ro 3:25).

Nope. . .the words spoken by the Son in theses last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers
reveal that the new covenant people of God are to live by the royal law of Christ
(Mt 22:37-40; Jas 2:8; Gal 6:2; Ro 13:8, 9, 10), not by the Mosaic regulations
which have been abolished in the flesh of Christ on the cross (Eph 2:15),
and the law given to the people set aside because it was weak and useless to make perfect
(Heb 7:18-19), as well as the old covenant made (past tense) worn out, ancient and old.

Obedience to the Mosaic regulations is not the mind of the new covenant word of God written
spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

Nope. . .Jesus' exceedingly great revelation personally given to Paul is not a "commentary,"
it also is God-breathed divine revelation (2Tim 3:16).

All of the new covenant word of God written is of equal authority and in agreement with itself.
None is any more true than any other, for the Holy Spirit is the author of it all, nor does he contradict himself.

This is HRM baloney. . .contrary to the mind of the new covenant word of God written.

JaumeJ · Jun 5, 2015

The expression, keeping Torah, is used here. Torah does not translate as law,. Acctually it translates closer to teaching. There is nothing wrong with "keeping Torah" when the veil of Moses is removed, and we all know what this means, that is, what removes that vel.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This quote from Ephesians could be called Torah. Keeping the meaning in this quote is the same.

It is in Ephesians also where we are taught that we were formerly children of diobedience, and this is true.

If we are now children of obedience, the words above are not null and voic if we choose to do our best to obey all laws and commandments of God just as did Jesus. That is to say according to how His teaching augments how and which laws ae to be obeyed, acording to HIs example, since we are to model ourselves after the Lord, Jesus, or do you prefer to call Him Yeshua, they are the same person. He is the Only Begotten of the Father.

It is not difficult nor is it being under the law attempting to be perfect here, it is simply following the teaching and the example of Jesus Christ.

God bless all who are truly His students and followers, amen.

MarcR · Jun 5, 2015

sparkman said:

Hi Marc,

Thanks for your remarks.

I have another question that perhaps you or someone can answer. Maybe it's already been answered by someone.

Is there an attempt for Hebrew Roots people to claim that they are physical descendents of Jacob? Herbert Armstrong taught British Israelism in an attempt to do that. In fact, he claimed to be a descendant of King David himself. I guess if you pay someone enough money to do your geneology, you can get them to say anything you want.

It's funny how Scripture specifically addresses not getting involved in geneology things yet he did it anyways.

While racism was not supposed to be a factor in Worldwide Church of God, I know that on occasion this British Israelism did cause some degree of hard feelings amongst members of different racial backgrounds, and I wouldn't doubt if it affected the ministry selection process in earlier years. The idea was that the ministry was mostly formed of those who were descendants of Levi, so I am guessing that implied a preference for white men in their theology.

I don't think this is a big factor with Hebrew Roots from what I've heard so far, but I wonder if the racism thing does show up there.

NOT THAT I KNOW OF; but they do think of themselves as the true Israel.

MarcR · Jun 5, 2015

JaumeJ said:

The expression, keeping Torah, is used here. Torah does not translate as law,. Acctually it translates closer to teaching. There is nothing wrong with "keeping Torah" when the veil of Moses is removed, and we all know what this means, that is, what removes that vel.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This quote from Ephesians could be called Torah. Keeping the meaning in this quote is the same.

It is in Ephesians also where we are taught that we were formerly children of diobedience, and this is true.

If we are now children of obedience, the words above are not null and voic if we choose to do our best to obey all laws and commandments of God just as did Jesus. That is to say according to how His teaching augments how and which laws ae to be obeyed, acording to HIs example, since we are to model ourselves after the Lord, Jesus, or do you prefer to call Him Yeshua, they are the same person. He is the Only Begotten of the Father.

It is not difficult nor is it being under the law attempting to be perfect here, it is simply following the teaching and the example of Jesus Christ.

God bless all who are truly His students and followers, amen.

Jaume,

I completely agree with you; however the HRM does NOT use the words torah observance as you just did.

Their use of those words is, IMO, heretical.

Gr8grace · Jun 5, 2015

Elin said:

John 19~~ 14Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold, your King!” 15So they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

JaumeJ · Jun 5, 2015

I am by no means expert on denominations, except for having attended many different denominations of Protestant churches while growing up. Becaue of the many times my family moved this occurred. I would go to the nearst church with a cross on it, being forbidden to attend Catholic or the no cross synagogues. At first it was godo because I had learned at the age of about four that Jesus loves me, so that was and still is my basic tjeology. I stopped going to these churches when I began to hear things from the pulpits that did not coincide with the way I understood Jesus. Jesus loves me, and this means He loves everyone. I cound not bear the racism, the anti-semitism, and politics being preached from the pupits.

At this point I stopped church altogether, and later, at 28, the Father filled me with the Holy Spirit, and my first feeling or understanding was and always will be HIs great love. My second, on th ehuman side perhaps, was profound indignation for what many denominations were doing to Jesus Christ's name. This left me, and leaves me completely free of any denomination, but I am very pleased to fellowship with any and all who love Jesus Christ for Who he is, or if you please, Yeshua.

My faith is the faith of Abraham, I like to think, there fore pariality or impartiality for any denomination or thelolgy under the guise of bein led by the Word of God is impossible forme in the sight of the Father.

We all must be of the faith Jesus taught before we claim any denomination, especially any that makes claims to be following the Word of God to the letter in the Holy Spirit, fo r their own divisions speak loudly that they are not.

All who love Yeshua for Who He is, are my family. God bless all who are truly in Jesus Christ........whether they call Him Yeshua or their tongues equivilent to Jesus........

MarcR said:

JGIG · Jun 5, 2015

sparkman said:

Actually, it's a HUGE part of the Hebrew Roots Movement and something which differentiates them from Messianic Judaism.

I addressed this in post #15:

HRMers hold to a version of British Israelism, which they call the 'Two House' or 'Ephraimite' or 'Lost Tribes' doctrine. You can read more about that here, under the letter 'E', 'Articles regarding The Two House/Ephraimite Doctrine'.

The last article in the list mentioned above is Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley, which is ridiculously long but gives good insight to many of the facets of the HRM and how they arrive at the teachings they do. British Israelism/the Ephraimite doctrine are both well addressed there, with references to the history of British Israelism and its relationship to the WWCG and in turn the relationship of the WWCG to the HRM.

And you're right; there is a definite racist component there, which is ironic, since many in the HRM will reject Calvinism's Unconditional Election/Limited Atonement doctrines (which I also reject, BTW) , yet will embrace the Ephraimite Doctrine, which denies salvation to anyone not of the Northern or Southern tribes of Israel. They try to make it seem as though 'anyone' can be grafted in (not into Christ and the Promise by faith but into Israel by the keeping of the commadments - you can read more about that HERE), but also believe that if you are 'drawn' to Yeshua, then you are actually part of the 'Lost Tribes', you just don't know it yet.

-JGIG

JGIG · Jun 5, 2015

Another informative article about how folks in the HRM gain footholds in the Body can be found here: Hebrew Roots Movement - Salesmanship 101

-JGIG

Elin · Jun 5, 2015

JaumeJ said:

Yes, the Holy Spirit.

Not so. . .

for the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers
teach that the Mosaic regulations are abolished in the flesh of Christ on the cross
(Eph 2:15),
the law given to the people (Heb 7:11) has been set aside by God because it was weak and useless to make perfect (Heb 7:18-19), and
the Mosaic (Sinaitic) Covenant has been made (past tense) worn out, ancient, old (Heb 8:13).

Elin · Jun 5, 2015

Gr8grace said:

Elin said:

John 19~~14Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold, your King!” 15So they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

Did that happen at Sinai, which is the topic of the post?

Elin · Jun 5, 2015

JaumeJ said:

And the faith Jesus taught is in the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

Elin · Jun 5, 2015

JGIG said:

1.) They will try to convince you that the belief system that you have been subjected to since the first century has been “Hellenized”, stripping “true first century beliefs” from their origins. They will tell you that you engage in pagan sun worship and idolatry, not to mention blatant disobedience to God’s Law. For an in-depth study dealing with these accusations by the HRM, refer to the post, “Hebrew Roots Movement – The Issue of ‘Hellenization’ “.

2.) They will re-define the New Covenant, changing it into a “renewed” Covenant, which is clearly communicated in the New Testament to be a NEW Covenant. Refer to the post, “Hebrew Roots Movement – New Covenant or ‘Renewed’ Covenant” for an overview of the HRM position and an in-depth word study proving the “renewed” position to be false.

3.) They will try to convince you that though a “New Covenant” exists, we are not yet under that New Covenant, and as as such, we must still “keep” Old Covenant Law. They will mis-use prophecy and the words of Jesus to support their position – always taken out of context and/or will mis-use the original language of a text in effort to support their error.

* They distort the biblical concept of repentance. For the redeemed believer in Christ, when we repent, we recognize our sin and Who Jesus is, and turn to the Grace of God and the completed work of Christ Jesus at the Cross for our salvation. To one in the HRM, repentance means to turn away from their sin and toward the Law of God, turning back to the keeping of Law with Jesus as the “Safety Net” for when they fail. The Biblical definition of repentance is to have a change of mind and heart, recognizing our sin, recognizing God’s Provision in Christ, and letting the Holy Spirit renew us, resulting in the changing of our behavior. For articles exploring this issue more, see “Hebrew Roots Movement – The Perversion of Repentance“, “Repentance For Those In Christ: A One Time Thing or an Every-Time-We-Sin Thing?“, and “Hebrew Roots Movement – Hebrews 10, Willful Sin, No More Sacrifice, and Judgement, Oh My!”

* Sanctification and the maintaining of their “salvation” is not in the hands of God, but in their own hands, dependant on their keeping of the Laws of the Old Covenant. Most in the HRM will try to deny this reality in their belief system, but if you systematically take each of their beliefs and see where they take you, there is no denying that their system of belief is upheld not by the Grace of God, but by the works of man.

Spot on! . . .

JGIG · Jun 6, 2015

Elin said:

Thanks

!

sparkman · Jun 6, 2015

I am listening to a youtube video on Hebrew Roots.

The individual in the video says that some within Hebrew Roots assert the title of Rabbi for themselves.

This is in spite of the Scriptural teaching against doing this:

Matthew 23:8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.

Rabbi means Master, so the term was applicable to Christ, but not to another man.

I am wondering how prevalent this practice is. Again, I am seeing elements of control and bondage with these sorts of assertions.

Word_Swordsman · Jun 6, 2015

MarcR said:

I suppose I tried too hard to keep a post short, leaving the wrong impression. I posted that link in #3 as what I think is a short introduction to why HRM ought to be avoided. I've never had personal experience with A HRM adherent, except online in debate, opposing their agenda.

I doubt it's good to lump all movements involving Judaism in with them, like some of the Messianic Jew congregations, of which there are many variations, some resembling the old Worldwide Church of God-Armstrong group, while others remind me of how it must have been for that soldier chained to Paul.

There are people I know are as Christian as Paul or Peter, or any of the most devout I personally, who have a Jewish background, who have embraced Jesus as Lord and savior. Two groups of them I am familiar with have members who are expert on everything Old Testament, cherishing every word, but also the New Testament. Both of them have their ministry focus on reaching Jews for Jesus, reaching gentiles along the way. Their manner is to prove the NT using the OT as much as will help. On Passover they celebrate that as a congregation, inviting gentiles to take part. Both conclude that by keeping the Lord's Supper, preaching the typology of scriptures for those ordinances. I had led in the Lord's Supper many times back home, but found I was doing so quite ignorantly, never hearing of the connection of the two.

Those two teach the whole Bible, but their work is to make disciples of Christ who understand the "whys and wherefores" of the entire background of what the apostles knew about Judaism and of Jesus. Such knowledge is powerful. It's why most Christian leaders and scholars have been in favor of keeping the OT bound to a NT volume in our Bibles.

The distinction I've observed from being around those people is they remain excited about the Lord 7 days a week, taking Jesus home with them, returning to church with Jesus. Their homes testify of Jesus, homes full of love, children remarkably obedient and pleasant. They all seemed very prosperous, healthy.

I never heard legalism from them. They all conclude with teachings centered on Jesus and his commandments, treasuring all the NT. They observe some Jewish feasts, but use those to teach the fulfillment in Christ. They meet on Saturdays and Sundays, Wednesdays, to accommodate people with different needs, and allow for times when a rancher just can't always leave home every Sunday. What they do would be very difficult to learn from modern books, and would require writing a book to explain this. So I am open to fellowship with Christian groups like theirs, but not the hardcore HRM into which the good Messianic groups are lumped. I wish I could be specific about where they are, but my clients are ranchers for whom I designed private lakes and still serve to update ecological management plans. I'll be visiting them every few years the rest of my useful life, enjoying living on their property, fellowshipping day and night. I know from them there are many more churches like theirs around the nation.

Sorry for the confusion.

Elin · Jun 6, 2015

Word_Swordsman said:

Actually, the OT is part of the Bible simply because it is the word of God written, and for no other utilitarian purpose.

And keeping in mind that there is no more powerful knowledge of the word of God than saving knowledge of the new covenant gospel.

JaumeJ · Jun 6, 2015

So it has come to this. Today the majority are not heeding Christ's teaching to love our enemies, replacing it with ideologies of man.

His words on the Cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do," are interpreted ñañs not including sinners whose sin is murder...........

It is no small wonder these same people argue constandtly against being chldren of obedience, and following Christ's Example and teaching..

Let us keep the almost-with-us folks in constant prayer for true understanding and salvation.

Elin · Jun 6, 2015

JaumeJ said:

Who is this majority. . .who is the enemy?

Actually, not including those whose sin is unbelief.

Straw man. . .no on argues against Mt 22:37-39.

Agreed. . .

Hebrew Roots Movement

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