Question: Is There an Innerrant Bible?

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Andrew1

Senior Member
May 11, 2013
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#1
Simple Question: Is (that's present tense not just the original autographs which no longer exist) the Bible (a tangible book you can hold in your hands containing within it the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) The inerrant (that means it has no errors or mistakes) word of God? If yes, then where can I find this inerrant Bible with no mistakes?

inerrant:
free from error (Merriam-Webster)
free from error; infallible. (dictionary.com)
Incapable of being wrong (oxford dictionaries.com)
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#2
Who told you the original compilation contained just the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#3
Simple Question: Is (that's present tense not just the original autographs which no longer exist) the Bible (a tangible book you can hold in your hands containing within it the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) The inerrant (that means it has no errors or mistakes) word of God? If yes, then where can I find this inerrant Bible with no mistakes?

inerrant:
free from error (Merriam-Webster)
free from error; infallible. (dictionary.com)
Incapable of being wrong (oxford dictionaries.com)
there is no inerrant Bible around today, although we have a NT which is 98% accurate.. But if God had wanted it to be so it would have been so. The Bible is so written that it accomplishes its purpose even when it has faults. If we had an inerrant Bible we would not use it inerrantly.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#4
I believe that the Greek and the Hebrew texts, as well as many modern versions are infallible. That does not mean it is perfect, but rather that the words convey to us what God wanted us to know and to live.

"Biblical infallibility is the belief that what the Bible says regarding matters of faith and Christian practice is wholly useful and true. It is the "belief that the Bible is completely trustworthy as a guide to salvation and the life of faith and will not fail to accomplish its purpose."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_infallibility
 

Andrew1

Senior Member
May 11, 2013
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#5
there is no inerrant Bible around today, although we have a NT which is 98% accurate.. But if God had wanted it to be so it would have been so. The Bible is so written that it accomplishes its purpose even when it has faults. If we had an inerrant Bible we would not use it inerrantly.
So all scripture only was given by inspiration of God and isno longer the inerrant word of God? What about 2Timothy 3:16?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Or does this passage no longer apply to modern day Christians?
 
Jun 23, 2015
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Who told you the original compilation contained just the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments?
He never used the word"original", you did. But we do know that the canon consists of only 66 books and that is what God has ordained.

“No one should use for the proof of doctrine books not included among the canonized Scriptures.” BF Westcott
 

Andrew1

Senior Member
May 11, 2013
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#7
I believe that the Greek and the Hebrew texts, as well as many modern versions are infallible.
Okay well most modern versions use a combination of the masoretic text and the Greek septuagint for the old-testament, and there are different Greek texts for the New Testament so, what's the correct underlying text?

That does not mean it is perfect, but rather that the words convey to us what God wanted us to know and to live.
So imperfection does not necessarily imply fallibility? Does that mean a book can contain mistakes and still be infallible? please explain your logic.

"Biblical infallibility is the belief that what the Bible says regarding matters of faith and Christian practice is wholly useful and true. It is the "belief that the Bible is completely trustworthy as a guide to salvation and the life of faith and will not fail to accomplish its purpose."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_infallibility
Are you sure wikipedia is an ideal theological source?
 
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Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#8
Simple Question: Is (that's present tense not just the original autographs which no longer exist) the Bible (a tangible book you can hold in your hands containing within it the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) The inerrant (that means it has no errors or mistakes) word of God? If yes, then where can I find this inerrant Bible with no mistakes?

inerrant:
free from error (Merriam-Webster)
free from error; infallible. (dictionary.com)
Incapable of being wrong (oxford dictionaries.com)
Firstly, only material errors matter, errors that alter other teachings.

There are no such material errors, therefore, God's word is true, providentially preserved by God for his people.

Secondly, a literal "inerrancy" is not what proves the truth of the Bible to a believer.
That proof is the powerful witness of the Holy Spirit to the spirit of the believer convincing him that the Bible is the true word of God.
 

Andrew1

Senior Member
May 11, 2013
160
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#9
Firstly, only material errors matter, errors that alter other teachings.

There are no such material errors, therefore, God's word is true, providentially preserved by God for his people.

Secondly, a literal "inerrancy" is not what proves the truth of the Bible to a believer.
That proof is the powerful witness of the Holy Spirit to the spirit of the believer convincing him that the Bible is the true word of God.
So what Biblical support do you have for this interesting teaching of "material inerrancy"?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#10
Okay well most modern versions use a combination of the masoretic text and the Greek septuagint for the old-testament, and there are different Greek texts for the New Testament so, what's the correct underlying text?



So imperfection does not necessarily imply fallibility? Does that mean a book can contain mistakes and still be infallible? please explain your logic.



Are you sure wikipedia is an ideal theological source?
Andrew,

Your question was not addressed to me; but I'm quite sure that Angela will agree with me.

I believe that God intentionally used imperfect men to record and transmit His perfect Word.

All translations contain human error in grammar and occasionally in fact.

I believe that God superintends the transmission of His Word so that the human errors that occur within it do NOT pervert the message and intent of the original text.

For example:


In Hebrew the text reads ben chemesh meowt shanah: ben usually means son or grandson; but before a number it signifies age; chemesh is 5; meowt is hundred; shanah is year (singular) but the number makes it years. There is an interesting problem here. If you do the arithmetic, it is easy to prove that Noah was born in the year 1056 from Adam’s creation; and Methuselah died in the year of the flood (1656). If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the flood (Ge 11:10); he was born in the year 1658. If Shem was 100 years old at the time of Arphaxad’s birth then Shem was born in 1558; which is 502 years after Noah’s birth. What follows is only informed speculation: One form of the Hebrew word for years is י sh’nay’ which is identical with the Hebrew word for two. These can be differentiated only by context. If the text had originally contained the word ‘sh’nay’ followed by ‘shanah’ or sh’nay instead of shanah, someone might have thought it to be an error and replaced ‘sh’nay shanah’ with ‘shanah’ which is the way the Hebrew text reads today. It is in any case certainly a human error; which does not really interfere with the message of the two passages.

I'm sure you will agree that the 2 year error in the text does NOT pervert the intent of the passage.


Regarding Wikipedia:

They have a well earned reputation for accurate and unbiased treatment of their subject matter in their articles.

They do a good job of explaining the distinctions between inerrancy and infallibility.

I would not look to any encyclopedia for commentary; but Wikipedia is reliable in matters of fact.
 

Andrew1

Senior Member
May 11, 2013
160
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#11
Andrew,

Your question was not addressed to me; but I'm quite sure that Angela will agree with me.

I believe that God intentionally used imperfect men to record and transmit His perfect Word.


So if God used imperfect men to record and transmit his perfect word, and he also used imperfect men to write down the originals, does that mean the originals have errors as well?

All translations contain human error in grammar and occasionally in fact.

I believe that God superintends the transmission of His Word so that the human errors that occur within it do NOT pervert the message and intent of the original text.


So when Luke translated the Hebrew words that Paul spoke in Acts 22 into Greek he as an imperfect man must have made mistakes?

For example:


In Hebrew the text reads ben chemesh meowt shanah: ben usually means son or grandson; but before a number it signifies age; chemesh is 5; meowt is hundred; shanah is year (singular) but the number makes it years. There is an interesting problem here. If you do the arithmetic, it is easy to prove that Noah was born in the year 1056 from Adam’s creation; and Methuselah died in the year of the flood (1656). If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the flood (Ge 11:10); he was born in the year 1658. If Shem was 100 years old at the time of Arphaxad’s birth then Shem was born in 1558; which is 502 years after Noah’s birth. What follows is only informed speculation: One form of the Hebrew word for years is י sh’nay’ which is identical with the Hebrew word for two. These can be differentiated only by context. If the text had originally contained the word ‘sh’nay’ followed by ‘shanah’ or sh’nay instead of shanah, someone might have thought it to be an error and replaced ‘sh’nay shanah’ with ‘shanah’ which is the way the Hebrew text reads today. It is in any case certainly a human error; which does not really interfere with the message of the two passages.

I'm sure you will agree that the 2 year error in the text does NOT pervert the intent of the passage.
So then the answer is no, God's word is not inerrant?
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
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#12
So all scripture only was given by inspiration of God and isno longer the inerrant word of God? What about 2Timothy 3:16?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Or does this passage no longer apply to modern day Christians?
Odd that one would claim to be a Christian/disciple of Christ, and then go off on such as this..........seriously dude?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#13
So what Biblical support do you have for this interesting teaching of "material inerrancy"?
What Biblical support do you have for the notion that inerrancy means not one letter out of place?

Your issue is an irrelevant red herring. . .the real issue of truth is whether any error is material or not.
 
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G

Gr8grace

Guest
#14
Okay well most modern versions use a combination of the masoretic text and the Greek septuagint for the old-testament, and there are different Greek texts for the New Testament so, what's the correct underlying text?



So imperfection does not necessarily imply fallibility? Does that mean a book can contain mistakes and still be infallible? please explain your logic.



Are you sure wikipedia is an ideal theological source?
I am sure there are many others here that agree with me.

Angela and Marc are probably the best "Go to people" on this forum for your question.

Their Posts are going to be more worthy than just a skim over.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#15
He never used the word"original", you did. But we do know that the canon consists of only 66 books and that is what God has ordained.

“No one should use for the proof of doctrine books not included among the canonized Scriptures.” BF Westcott
I believe you will find that, the 10th word of his OP referred to just that... the ORIGINAL writings.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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#16


So if God used imperfect men to record and transmit his perfect word, and he also used imperfect men to write down the originals, does that mean the originals have errors as well?


Not to the best of my knowledge and belief. However, whether or not they did, they perfectly accomplished God's purpose through His inspired word.

So when Luke translated the Hebrew words that Paul spoke in Acts 22 into Greek he as an imperfect man must have made mistakes?

Paul, who was fluent in Greek may well have done the translation himself. Also nothing precludes Luke from having learned Hebrew and Aramaic proficiently



So then the answer is no, God's word is not inerrant?
I f your intent is to cast doubt on the authority of Scripture, responding to you will be a waste of time.

If you are truly seeking to understand how the Scripture can be authoritative and still contain error; I am happy to continue this discussion.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
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#17
I f your intent is to cast doubt on the authority of Scripture, responding to you will be a waste of time.

If you are truly seeking to understand how the Scripture can be authoritative and still contain error; I am happy to continue this discussion.
Yeah, I go with the one in red.............given his other thread here on the BDF
 

Andrew1

Senior Member
May 11, 2013
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#18
What Biblical support do you have for the notion that inerrancy means not one letter out of place?

Your issue is an irrelevant red herring. . .the real issue of truth is whether any error is material or not.
I'm sorry but I'm still really interested in your position on how The Bible is only inerrant in a "material" sense this is an interesting definition of inerrancy. Does the Bible really say that?
 

Andrew1

Senior Member
May 11, 2013
160
10
18
#19
I f your intent is to cast doubt on the authority of Scripture, responding to you will be a waste of time.

If you are truly seeking to understand how the Scripture can be authoritative and still contain error; I am happy to continue this discussion.
Actually my intent is to do the exact opposite, I'm trying to get people to admit their true position that they don't truly believe in inerrancy and then I can point them in the right direction from their. Their most absolutely is an inerrant Bible that can be believed 100%
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
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#20
Okay well most modern versions use a combination of the masoretic text and the Greek septuagint for the old-testament, and there are different Greek texts for the New Testament so, what's the correct underlying text?



So imperfection does not necessarily imply fallibility? Does that mean a book can contain mistakes and still be infallible? please explain your logic.



Are you sure wikipedia is an ideal theological source?
In Seminary, we translated from the Masoretic texts. I know in Ph.D Greek courses, they translate the LXX. So yes, some differences appear. I have also spent some time studying the LXX in Greek, as well as comparing words to the ones that appear in Hebrew, and the Greek New Testament. But none of the differences affect doctrine. I know Jeremiah, the LXX takes away a lot of things. Hence, most translations use the Masoretic, although the things that are missing are mostly "The Lord says" and things which are not doctrinal in nature.

As far as the Greek texts, the same thing applies. The differences in the manuscripts are so tiny as to not affect doctrine. If you learned Greek, you could get a UBS or Nestle-Alland NT and all the textual differences are written below the text for every difference. After a while, you begin to see how these differences do not affect the text.

As for mistakes, we are talking sometimes one stroke of one letter, copied wrong, changing the word from men to donkeys, or things of that sort. Again, small errors that do not affect doctrine! Sometimes a difference might be the case of the word in Greek, or sometimes the tense of the verb - especially in Hebrew, where dropping a vowel point means a different vowel. (And yes, the vowel points were not in the original manuscripts, but that is because the people spoke Hebrew, and they didn't need them. When the Jews started losing Hebrew, the Masorets stepped in and added the vowel points for clarity and to preserve the unwritten aspect of the text)

The only reason I picked this quote from Wikipedia, is because it says exactly what my theological books say about infallibilty, so rather than type it all out, my fingers having some big issues these days, I copied and pasted. I would not normally use Wikipedia, unless it said exactly what was in my theology books.

I also compare between the modern translations and the Greek and Hebrew. It helps me to see the differences, but more important to appreciate the closeness of the texts. It says so much to me, that despite these human imperfections in transmitting the text, God totally preserves his Word. You don't need an inerrant text, you need to realize how God works in the lives of people to pass down his text, and for us, as long as 3500 years after some of the OT books, and 1900-1950 years later for the NT, we have the living Word of God to read, to study and to learn and grow from!


I hope that answers your questions. But feel free to ask more.