OSAS, the final answer

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#121
#121
KennethC said:
Yes it is solely based on faith and this again leads to issues because how some define faith.

1) Bible defines faith as an active faith of obedience to the Lord
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It is not only active, it is based on a trust and assurance,, ie more than just mere belief)

2) Some try to define it as simply believe, as they speak on the coming and hearing, but try to leave of the doing...
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ie, licentious gospel. Gospel of easy believism, Gospel of PRIDE (I can have my cake and eat it too)

These people were never saved, and never will be saved until the reach the point of Number 1)


The Separation of the Goats and Sheep should be taken into account in this study as both the Goats and Sheep call Jesus their Lord. Only one gets salvation and the other does not, and why is it they don't???
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1. They are trying to earn salvation (legalism)
2. They want salvation, and to live however they want at the same time (licentiousness)

Both are based on PRIDE. and lack humility, which is why there is no true faith, and why there will be no salvation unless they repent.

The Lord says because they have denied to help others in need they have denied Him, showing that denying the Lord is more then not believing in Him but also not believing and trusting to do what He said.....
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Yet one can help others and never be saved, So this would be a faulty view as to who is saved and who is not.

pure and simply it is those who do not have true faith in God.

we are saved by faith, If we have no faith (even if we believe) we are not saved. period.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#122
#122
RickyZ said:
Absolutely, and that goes back to point of works being a reliable indicator of your faith. One may by their lips profess in Christ, but the proof is in the pudding - if you're producing bad works your professed faith is hollow and empty indeed.
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yet the pharisee had many works (they were seen as the people who obeyed Gods commands)

a religious person can have works, yet have no faith in God. so to say works prove one is saved, may be a false indicator.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#123
#123
RickyZ said:
Given the scriptures below (thank you Kenneth), I don't think there's any part of the "falling away" aspect that God left ambiguous. The only ambiguous part is, are we going to pick and choose which scriptures we believe and which we deny, or are we going to believe all scripture and try to wrap our heads around it's entirety?

I find it's the milk babies who have the most trouble with that (no offense to anyone intended).
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Non of the passages kenny gave say eternal life can be lost.

When are people going to realise not everyone in church sitting next to you may be saved, And they can sit next to you weekly for years, and never really know God. then one day fall away (stop comming to church)

did they lose eternal life? Not they never had it

Did they fall away? Yes. they fell away from what could have saved them, why? because a dog returns to his vomit (James), To prove they were never of us (john)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#124
#124
Stephen63 said:
I'm gonna just say exactly what's on my mind right now, though against my better judgement.

First of all, I was talking to Angela, not you. Even though she & I disagree on quite a bit, she doesn't use a know-it-all attitude without scripture..... like you do.

She doesn't butt into my business..... like you do.

She doesn't jump into the conversation as if she's the only one who knows how to do it..... like you do.

So I can feel a little at ease when in discussion with her..... I don't feel that way with you.

You, on the other hand, sparsely use scripture, & rarely use the context. I usually hear that you're right, & I'm wrong & barely saved..... if at all. I wonder how many others hear it that way.

So, it shouldn't come as a surprise when I tell you that you come across to me as a superiority-complexed, pompous jerk.

I know that probably didn't help you much.....but believe me, I'm feeling much better now.:)
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Glad you feel better

Now lets get back to DISCUSSING the word.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#125
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#125
KennethC said:
Verse 24 says "reward of the inheritance," and the inheritance is the kingdom of heaven a.k.a. salvation/eternal life....
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no 'the reward of the inheritance' includes all that goes with the kingly rule of heaven, the reward that goes with the inheritance, the reward that Jesus Christ will give for faithful service. It is faithful service that the passage is talking about. And they are already 'saved'. they already have eternal life. they are already in the kingly rule of heaven,
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

Senior Member
#126
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
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#126
eternally-gratefull said:

yet the pharisee had many works (they were seen as the people who obeyed Gods commands)

a religious person can have works, yet have no faith in God. so to say works prove one is saved, may be a false indicator.
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Weren't the Pharisees called out time and time again because of their false works? Jesus taught that they were NOT following God's commands, except by their own false interpretations.
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

Senior Member
#127
Sep 20, 2012
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#127
eternally-gratefull said:
Non of the passages kenny gave say eternal life can be lost.

When are people going to realise not everyone in church sitting next to you may be saved, And they can sit next to you weekly for years, and never really know God. then one day fall away (stop comming to church)

did they lose eternal life? Not they never had it

Did they fall away? Yes. they fell away from what could have saved them, why? because a dog returns to his vomit (James), To prove they were never of us (john)
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That verse about those who have tasted the things of the Holy Spirit - can one taste such things without accepting them first?

That's like saying those who say yum but then push their plate away never tasted the meal.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#128
#128
RickyZ said:
Weren't the Pharisees called out time and time again because of their false works? Jesus taught that they were NOT following God's commands, except by their own false interpretations.
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And this is different than a religious self righteous legalist, who (like the pharisees) does not realize he is what he is, but thinks he is doing Gods will how??
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#129
#129
RickyZ said:
That verse about those who have tasted the things of the Holy Spirit - can one taste such things without accepting them first?
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Yes, thats why you taste them, to see if you like them.

That's like saying those who say yum but then push their plate away never tasted the meal.
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No, its is like they did not like the meal as well as they thought they would. so they pushed their place away. and went back to what they really liked (in the case of the jews, the law) because that is what they really had FAITH in.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#130
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#130
RickyZ said:
Again, there are two parts to this equation:

1. God gives us eternal life

2. There are still some who will fall away

These are both God's Word straight from scripture. Until and unless you are able to resolve how these both can be true, you are missing the big picture and the whole truth.

And true, this is for the most part a moot subject. You cannot 'work' your way out of heaven any more than you can work your way in. It is 100% based upon faith. The only ones who really have to worry about any of this are the ones who at some point are going to deny Christ.
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What are they falling away from? From salvation? From service or obedience to the Lord?

Salvation is 100% not on faith but on Gods grace. Grace is not faith. Faith is tried and tested and sometimes we fail but Gods grace is above testing and can never fail.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#132
#132
phil112 said:
Went back? So you are admitting they left?
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is this a trick question or something?

WHy does a dog go back to his old trick? because no matter what you try to make that dog, he is still a dog by nature.

Why does a child of wrath always return to wrath? Because no matter what they tried to make themselves )or what anyone else tried to make them, they were still a child of wrath.

in niether case where the dog of the child made a new creature in Christ Jesus,
 
W

WoundedWarrior

Guest
#133
#133
RickyZ said:
Based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:

7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve

8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselfs away from salvation

9. Disbelief is not an act of works



11. Salvation is lost by apostasy
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What is the scriptural reference for the above? It seems to me, that the above is a Church Creed, rather than Gospel. How does one formally denounce one's faith to God, if one does not first believe in God? Praying to God, with the purpose of letting Him know that you do not any longer believe, is contradictory.
 
mwc68

mwc68

Banned
#134
Nov 14, 2012
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#134
RickyZ said:
Based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:


1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.

2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.

3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.

4. We are not saved by acts of works.

5. Works are a reliable discerner of salvation status

6. Once His, God will never turn us away because of our works

7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve

8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselfs away from salvation

9. Disbelief is not an act of works

10. Salvation is not lost by works.

11. Salvation is lost by apostasy
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So, Salvation can be lost? I agree but its not a popular stance here at CC
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

Senior Member
#135
Sep 20, 2012
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#135
I wouldn't use the word lost. Apostasy, which is a conscious decision/act, is really the true term for what it takes to forfeit salvation. Keeping in mind that backsliding and apostasy are not the same thing.
 
mwc68

mwc68

Banned
#136
Nov 14, 2012
2,113
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#136
RickyZ said:
I wouldn't use the word lost. Apostasy, which is a conscious decision/act, is really the true term for what it takes to forfeit salvation. Keeping in mind that backsliding and apostasy are not the same thing.
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Ok, i see now
 
W

WoundedWarrior

Guest
#137
#137
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#138
#138
RickyZ said:
I wouldn't use the word lost. Apostasy, which is a conscious decision/act, is really the true term for what it takes to forfeit salvation. Keeping in mind that backsliding and apostasy are not the same thing.
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Okay Ricky, can you please define the difference between apostasy and backsliding? I agree both terms are from the mouth of God.
 
Gozinia

Gozinia

Banned
#139
Feb 11, 2015
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#139
I'm rooting for ya Ricky! You can do eeet! :D
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

Senior Member
#140
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
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#140
It takes a conscious decision to accept Christ to become saved. Backsliding, you are not walking the walk, but you still profess Christ and are saved. Apostasy is making a conscious decision to reject Christ.
 
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