Refute Against OSAS
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You don't even begin to understand grace. According to your thinking you are still waiting to pass from judgment into life...
Ephesians 2:1, 5-6 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:1, 5-6 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
K
Well that maybe how you look at it, but is not the way the bible speaks on the subject as from the OT all the way through to the NT is shows we still have free will to chose to obey or not obey the will of God.
Free will obedience exists in believers as well as non-believers, as Jesus Himself showed that believers can still chose to be obedient or disobedient. Those who from love obey Him are the sheep, and those who are contentious and disobey His teachings are goats !!!
Free will obedience exists in believers as well as non-believers, as Jesus Himself showed that believers can still chose to be obedient or disobedient. Those who from love obey Him are the sheep, and those who are contentious and disobey His teachings are goats !!!
M
Again you don't seem to understand the fact that obedience is to surrender ones own free-will ...and that your not saved by your will but by surrender to Gods Will....and when an army surrenders to a greater army...that's a choice ...yes...but its not called "free-will" its called surrender!
And if you have a point to make out of scripture...make it!
And if you have a point to make out of scripture...make it!
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K
You don't even begin to understand grace. According to your thinking you are still waiting to pass from judgment into life...
Ephesians 2:1, 5-6 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:1, 5-6 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
You are taking a verse here that is speaking on mental assurance once again.
Are we actually in heaven already? No because mentally we are assured to be seated with Him by obeying to walk in the Spirit.
Do not be deceived Apostle Paul says because that day has not come yet to where we have been raised and transformed into a twinkling of an eye into our eternal bodies.
We are now dead to trespasses and sins because by faith we walk in the fruits of the Spirit, and those fruits will not lead one to sin. Jesus spoke on this when He said we put away the things that cause us to sin, meaning we deal with our issues by repenting and confessing them to the Lord. Turning away from them to no longer walk in them !!!
so you give me someone's personal opinion as though it were authoritative?. But he does not translate, he interprets to suit his own opinion.
but that is NOT a translation. it is a personal paraphrase to suit his own views. Literally translated John 3.16 reads 'therefore every believing one into Him'. It simply indicates that the one who truly believes in Him -- has eternal life.
You cannot 'have eternal life' and then 'not have it'. it is self contradictory. it thus indicates that through one act of truly believing the person has eternal life. why? because Christ's sacrifice and salvation has an eternal effect. once accomplished it is fixed and certain.
The problem with you people is that you do not understand salvation. You think it is something you have to 'obtain and hold onto'. But it is not. It is the gift of God of eternal salvation which brings about that salvation through Christ's saving power. It is not left in our hands. We are simply the recipients. you see yourself as having a failing Christ, we have an unfailing Christ. That is the difference.
Jesus Christ is powerful, capable and active in salvation. HE brings it about. To invent fictitious scenarios that suggest He has failed is simply an insult to HIM.
but that is NOT a translation. it is a personal paraphrase to suit his own views. Literally translated John 3.16 reads 'therefore every believing one into Him'. It simply indicates that the one who truly believes in Him -- has eternal life.
You cannot 'have eternal life' and then 'not have it'. it is self contradictory. it thus indicates that through one act of truly believing the person has eternal life. why? because Christ's sacrifice and salvation has an eternal effect. once accomplished it is fixed and certain.
The problem with you people is that you do not understand salvation. You think it is something you have to 'obtain and hold onto'. But it is not. It is the gift of God of eternal salvation which brings about that salvation through Christ's saving power. It is not left in our hands. We are simply the recipients. you see yourself as having a failing Christ, we have an unfailing Christ. That is the difference.
Jesus Christ is powerful, capable and active in salvation. HE brings it about. To invent fictitious scenarios that suggest He has failed is simply an insult to HIM.
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In this example, the person lost faith after having forsaken the talent given to them (Matthew 25: 14-30). Christ's faith in us according to the measure of faith given to each man by God. (Romans 12:3)
He buried the talent given to him in the earth. He was never born of God. His belief in God was no more than what devils believe.They shake and tremble in fear of Christ Jesus knowing that He will cast them into hell and torment at the judgement but hope they have more time here on earth to run a muck before they are destroyed (Matthew 8:29).
John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 10:26-28
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Romans 8:9
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:29-30
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
John 1:12-13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
He buried the talent given to him in the earth. He was never born of God. His belief in God was no more than what devils believe.They shake and tremble in fear of Christ Jesus knowing that He will cast them into hell and torment at the judgement but hope they have more time here on earth to run a muck before they are destroyed (Matthew 8:29).
John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 10:26-28
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Romans 8:9
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:29-30
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
John 1:12-13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
K
We are trying to show the full truth of God's word to them, and not just partial truths.
Apostle Paul did not use soft words all the time when talking to believers, and constantly called others out when they were not walking properly in the faith to help them turn from those ways. Love in the bible was shown as gentle and tough love, as some can handle the gentle approach but others need the up front straight in their face approach.
Paul did not hold back when rebuking and reproving others who did not walk properly in the faith !!!
Apostle Paul did not use soft words all the time when talking to believers, and constantly called others out when they were not walking properly in the faith to help them turn from those ways. Love in the bible was shown as gentle and tough love, as some can handle the gentle approach but others need the up front straight in their face approach.
Paul did not hold back when rebuking and reproving others who did not walk properly in the faith !!!
The bible says the devil has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so that they can't see the light of the gospel.
It is interesting to note that their will lines up with their thinking, in that, when you bind the devil from blinding the mind of a loved one and claim their salvation, how all of a sudden, their will changes and they want to receive Jesus.
Some years back, my wife and I had a difference and I was seriously considering leaving and looking for another wife. Even though I knew this to be wrong and not the will of God, my will, desires, and thoughts were to leave.
I didn't speak to my wife and she didn't speak to me, for three days. That was a first.
But on the third day, though I didn't really want to, I bound the devil in the name of Jesus, repented of my sins, confessed them, covered that part of my heart in the blood of Jesus, then asked God to forgive me.
Within a minute or two, every thought and desire left me. I no longer wanted or willed to leave my wife. I no longer was angry and hated her. I no longer thought ill of her.
I fell in love with her anew, wanting to be with and talk to her once again.
My will changed according to the spirit that was controlling me. It affected not only my thoughts and desires, but my will as well.
I prayed only because I knew is was a demonic spirit, not because I wanted to. On the contrary, I wanted to leave, I wanted someone else. And no, I did not have another woman on the hook, so to speak.
What about the mad man of Gadara? Didn't his will change after Jesus cast out the spirit from him?
There is no free will as you have said, but according to the will of God.
The bible asks, who can resist His will.
The answer is, none.
Rom 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
It is interesting to note that their will lines up with their thinking, in that, when you bind the devil from blinding the mind of a loved one and claim their salvation, how all of a sudden, their will changes and they want to receive Jesus.
Some years back, my wife and I had a difference and I was seriously considering leaving and looking for another wife. Even though I knew this to be wrong and not the will of God, my will, desires, and thoughts were to leave.
I didn't speak to my wife and she didn't speak to me, for three days. That was a first.
But on the third day, though I didn't really want to, I bound the devil in the name of Jesus, repented of my sins, confessed them, covered that part of my heart in the blood of Jesus, then asked God to forgive me.
Within a minute or two, every thought and desire left me. I no longer wanted or willed to leave my wife. I no longer was angry and hated her. I no longer thought ill of her.
I fell in love with her anew, wanting to be with and talk to her once again.
My will changed according to the spirit that was controlling me. It affected not only my thoughts and desires, but my will as well.
I prayed only because I knew is was a demonic spirit, not because I wanted to. On the contrary, I wanted to leave, I wanted someone else. And no, I did not have another woman on the hook, so to speak.
What about the mad man of Gadara? Didn't his will change after Jesus cast out the spirit from him?
There is no free will as you have said, but according to the will of God.
The bible asks, who can resist His will.
The answer is, none.
Rom 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Originally Posted by crossnote
You don't even begin to understand grace. According to your thinking you are still waiting to pass from judgment into life...
Ephesians 2:1, 5-6 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:1, 5-6 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
It is not 'mental assurance'. It is SPIRITUAL FACT. We are not 'mentally assured that we will be with Him.' WE ARE WITH HIM. Your spiritual experience is so lacking. We have been raised with Christ. We are seated with Christ in the spiritual realm. It is only our bodies which tread this earthly dust..
It is you whom Satan is deceiving. Our bodies are still on earth and will be transformed later (that is the day which has not come yet), but our spirits are with Him in heavenly places. (that has already come)
you see how blind you are to truth? We are NOT dead to trespasses and sins through ANYTHING that we do. We are dead to trespasses and sins because we died with Christ. It is because we have risen with Christ that we enjoy the fruit of the Spirit. It is all His doing. You are usurping His place.
They will if you try to obtain them on your own. Our continuing victory over sin is obtained by reckoning on ourselves as dead with Christ and risen with Him (Rom 6.11). It is through His power that we reign.
No wonder you struggle. We put away the things that cause us to sin by dying with Christ and allowing Him to live out His life through us. And we do it as those who are seated in heavenly places IN HIM. Doing it on your own is a guarantee of failure. You walk on your own, We walk with HIM..
I met someone who loved the Lord and served obediently, but through hardship and disappointment he became bitter and no longer believed. If his salvation is lost due to his now unbelief, he would have been indisputably better off killing himself when he believed, thus still having eternal life.
So if we can lose our salvation, that's equivalent to saying that life is not a gift but rather a gamble, and whoa to those who lose the bet.
So if we can lose our salvation, that's equivalent to saying that life is not a gift but rather a gamble, and whoa to those who lose the bet.