Refute Against OSAS

[valiant]

Just heard a message on this and it goes to the idea that we are saved by faith and we live a life of faith. Like if there was such a word as "faithing" that would help describe it. Was not talking about an idea of keeping your salvation by striving to keep what you have been given, but that you have been saved by faith you are to now walk by faith and not by sight.

True, however it is not our faith that saves us, but the One in Whom we have put our faith. And His promise is that HE will maintain us in that faith. He does not expect us to do it for ourselves.

 

[ladylynn]

True, however it is not our faith that saves us, but the One in Whom we have put our faith. And His promise is that HE will maintain us in that faith. He does not expect us to do it for ourselves.

Exactly., Jesus saves... Eph. 2:8-9-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselves it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast., For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Maintaining our birth is not possible. "The time of "sealing" coincides with the time of believing. Sealed with the Holy Spirit. A seal indicates possession and security. The presence of the HolySpirit, the seal, is the believer's guarantee of the security of his salvation." NASB study notes on Eph.1:13

vs.14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
..pledge = deposit, down payment. The presence of the Spirit is God's pledge that our salvation will be consummated.
NASB Study notes.

Terms like birth.,pledge, sealed, have some major intentions for us to understand.

God wants us to be "rooted" and "grounded" in Him., not insecure about our next minute of our next step. Whether we might step right out of our new birth into damnation.

 

[breno785au]

True, however it is not our faith that saves us, but the One in Whom we have put our faith. And His promise is that HE will maintain us in that faith. He does not expect us to do it for ourselves.

He is the author and finisher of our faith!

 

[tourist]

Does blond want to do her will or Gods Will? Does blond obey God by doing what she wants or by doing what God wants?

It is obvious that the 'blond' chooses to do God's will. What she wants is to obey God. This is her choice.

 

[Angela53510]

so you give me someone's personal opinion as though it were authoritative?. But he does not translate, he interprets to suit his own opinion.


the Greek phrase ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν (which I translate as "that all the believers in and with him"


but that is NOT a translation. it is a personal paraphrase to suit his own views. Literally translated John 3.16 reads 'therefore every believing one into Him'. It simply indicates that the one who truly believes in Him -- has eternal life.

You cannot 'have eternal life' and then 'not have it'. it is self contradictory. it thus indicates that through one act of truly believing the person has eternal life. why? because Christ's sacrifice and salvation has an eternal effect. once accomplished it is fixed and certain.

The problem with you people is that you do not understand salvation. You think it is something you have to 'obtain and hold onto'. But it is not. It is the gift of God of eternal salvation which brings about that salvation through Christ's saving power. It is not left in our hands. We are simply the recipients. you see yourself as having a failing Christ, we have an unfailing Christ. That is the difference.

Jesus Christ is powerful, capable and active in salvation. HE brings it about. To invent fictitious scenarios that suggest He has failed is simply an insult to HIM.

the Greek phrase ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν (which I translate as "that all the believers in and with him"

Actually, the phrase above is best translated "that all the ones believing in him" pisteuon is the participle, and technically needs to be translated with an "ing" ending. "ὁ" is normally translated as "the ones" and πᾶς or pas is "all". Finally, εἰς or ais means in or into, and auton, is the accusative case for him.

Thus this means that all those who are believing in Christ are saved. And salvation, as valiant and others have mentioned, is eternal, forever. It is NOT conditional upon our sins or failures, but rather the shed blood of Jesus on the cross, and the resurrection.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

I'm so glad I can trust Jesus and his Word, instead of the false teachers who propagate this forum with their twisted verses, taken out of context.

 

[Mitspa]

It is obvious that the 'blond' chooses to do God's will. What she wants is to obey God. This is her choice.

I was trying to make a point in context of our discussion.. tourist....but thanks

 

[KennethC]

Not one of those Scriptures says that we can lose eternal life. You are simply trying to deceive the innocent. Shame on you.

Please do not tell me you are one of those ones who don't believe the context just because the exact words you are looking for are not in those scriptures?

What do you think these mean:

1) Will not enter the kingdom of heaven

2) Will not receive the promise

3) Name will be removed from the Book of Life

4) Will be cut off and burned

5) Will face judgment and a fiery indignation

6) Fall back to perdition

7) Christ become of no effect and falling from grace

8) Not everybody who calls Him Lord will enter heaven

9) Unless you repent of sins you will perish

10) Do not confess Him as Lord and not forgive others, He will deny you before the Father and you will not be forgiven



How about the multiple verses that speak on having to endure to the end, what do you think will happen if you don't endure to the end? The bible clearly shows the answer for those who don't, and it is not eternal life.

 

[KennethC]

the Greek phrase ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν (which I translate as "that all the believers in and with him"

Actually, the phrase above is best translated "that all the ones believing in him" pisteuon is the participle, and technically needs to be translated with an "ing" ending. "ὁ" is normally translated as "the ones" and πᾶς or pas is "all". Finally, εἰς or ais means in or into, and auton, is the accusative case for him.

Thus this means that all those who are believing in Christ are saved. And salvation, as valiant and others have mentioned, is eternal, forever. It is NOT conditional upon our sins or failures, but rather the shed blood of Jesus on the cross, and the resurrection.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

I'm so glad I can trust Jesus and his Word, instead of the false teachers who propagate this forum with their twisted verses, taken out of context.

Yes believing with an "ing" ending which makes it a continuous act, not a one time profession.

The bible clearly shows we are saved by faith in the Lord and that faith is an active one that hangs on love, as the bible clearly says those who do not love do not know God and have the truth abiding in them.

What happens to those who do not obey the gospel of Christ or depart from the faith?
The bible is very clear on this as well and shows that their ending is eternal punishment and not eternal life with the Lord.

 

[dcontroversal]

Actually Jesus started the eternal security doctrine...not Augustine...

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(Joh 5:24)

No doubt and I agree...people who teach you can lose it teach heresy and a self/works based false gospel of a different kind which has no power to save....they trust in themselves over Jesus and his faith for sure!

 

[dcontroversal]

the Greek phrase ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν (which I translate as "that all the believers in and with him"

Actually, the phrase above is best translated "that all the ones believing in him" pisteuon is the participle, and technically needs to be translated with an "ing" ending. "ὁ" is normally translated as "the ones" and πᾶς or pas is "all". Finally, εἰς or ais means in or into, and auton, is the accusative case for him.

Thus this means that all those who are believing in Christ are saved. And salvation, as valiant and others have mentioned, is eternal, forever. It is NOT conditional upon our sins or failures, but rather the shed blood of Jesus on the cross, and the resurrection.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

I'm so glad I can trust Jesus and his Word, instead of the false teachers who propagate this forum with their twisted verses, taken out of context.

Amen to that.....The words of Jesus are clear and the blood applied through faith equals eternal justification and eternal salvation...a once for all act.......those who deny this are blind to the truth!

 

[MarcR]

sProctor;2187877](Originally posted by Jan "Justice" Boshoff, aka, FinalCall07)

The words of Jesus Christ are the words of eternal life and we will be judged by those words. Many believers look for an opportunity to sin and therefor they twist the scriptures, they select certain scriptures to justify their sinfulness. Jesus commanded us to live in utter holiness and obedience to Him. The apostles, Peter, Paul, John and the others also preached the same message, they preached Jesus Christ but some people twist the scriptures to their own detriment.

Let us read the words of Peter in this regard. We read from 2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE IN HOLY CONDUCT AND GODLINESS, 12. looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13. But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.”

Peter emphasizes here:”WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE IN HOLY CONDUCT AND GODLINESS,” because God will purge the earth of all unrighteousness and He is creating a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness will dwell and ONLY THE RIGHTEOUS will dwell in there.

Peter writes further in verse 14. “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, SPOTLESS AND BLAMELESS,” I repeat SPOTLESS AND BLAMELESS. “ 15. and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16. as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which THE UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE DISTORT, AS THEY DO ALSO THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES, TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. 17. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.”

The gospel that is preached in many churches today, causes many people to fall into sin, to live in unholiness and immorality because they believe that it is acceptable to be sinful whereas Jesus Christ says that “those who sin are slaves to sin.” We must be HOLY AND UTTERLY RIGHTEOUS or else we will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. These people also TWIST THE WORDS OF PAUL and pull out, they highlight certain scriptures by which they justify sin but they neglect to read all of the writings of Paul and to seriously seek the truth or else they will find the truth also in the words of Paul. These people TWIST THE TRUTH and many run after them and they will be destroyed with them.

We now read from Romans 8:1. Paul wrote:”Therefore THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN Christ Jesus.” There cannot be any condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus because they LIVE IN HIS WILL. They OBEY Him.
Verse 2. “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, WHO DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.”

If we are led by the Holy Spirit and not by our FLESH then we will not sin but we will COMPLY with the law, we will DO what the Spirit guides us to go, we WILL live in UTTER RIGHTEOUSENSS AND HOLINESS and that is why the requirement of the law will be fulfilled in us, because we are led by the Spirit of God and we do RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Verse 5:”For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.” If your MIND is on sin, on the TV, on the things of this world, on the things that you LUST AFTER then you will sin, you will do what is wrong, but if your mind is on Jesus and on the things of the Spirit of God, YOU WILL NOT SIN, you will live in holiness and righteousness, you will be LED BY THE SPIRIT. It all depends on where your mind is. Is your mind on Jesus Christ and on obeying Him or do you occupy yourself with TV, video games, the newest technology, celebrities, movies, the things of this world? Where is your mind? Where your mind is there your body will go. If your mind is on sin and lust and pornography that is what you will do but if your mind is on Christ you won’t do those things, you will do what is pleasing to Jesus.
[/SIZE]
Verse 6: “FOR THE MIND SET ON THE FLESH IS DEATH, BUT THE MIND SET ON THE SPIRIT IS LIFE AND PEACE, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” That is why PEOPLE CANNOT STOP SINNING, because their mind is set on the FLESH. They are carried after their LUSTS and they do WICKEDNESS. They do what is in their mind.
Verse 9: “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” Why do so many believers run after sin? Because they do not have the Holy Spirit. Their mind is not on Christ.

Verse 10.”If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”
12So then, brethren, WE ARE UNDER OBLIGATION, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for IF YOU ARE LIVING ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, YOU MUST DIE;but if BY THE SPIRIT YOU ARE PUTTING TO DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YOU WILL LIVE. “ Is that not CLEAR that we have to live in holiness and righteousness? And that we will do so if indeed we are led by the Spirit of God; we will not live according to the flesh, the desire of the flesh but we will follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit and DO what is pleasing to God. Therefor we will live FOR Jesus and DO His WILL, DO His WORKS, DO that which He guides us to do. Our body will not be used for the dead works of the flesh, we will be DEAD TO SIN and ALIVE TO CHRIST!

Verse 14.”For ALL WHO ARE BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, these are sons of God.” If you are not led by the Spirit of God then you are not manifesting, then you are not SHOWING yourself as a son of God, as a child of God. If you sin you are a child of the devil, you show by your deeds who your father is, you show by your deeds whom you are following. If you are following Jesus you will do HIS WORKS, you will obey Him. But if you sin you are a son of the devil and you are following your father.

Verse 15:”For you have not received a SPIRIT OF SLAVERY leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” We have not received a spirit of slavery, we have received a spirit of freedom, the Spirit of God. IF WE SIN WE ARE SLAVES TO SIN. If we are BORN AGAIN we are FREE from the POWER OF SIN and we can cry out to our Father, “Abba! Father!” and He will guide us. He will keep us from the power of the evil one IF we WANT TO. But if we turn to sin we do it by our OWN FREE WILL. God gives us the power to overcome the powers of evil and of sin because He is our Father, we can cry out: “Abba! Father!” and He will help us.
Verse 16. “The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, IF INDEED WE SUFFER WITH HIM so that we may also be glorified with Him.” If we are children of God we have the APPROVAL, and we have the CONFIRMATION of the Holy Spirit in our heart that He is pleased with us, that we ARE children of God. If we do not have that confirmation, that PEACE that passes all understanding, because we KNOW that we are DOING the WILL OF GOD, if we don’t have that then we are not in the will of God, we are not led by the Spirit of God.

There is no room for sin and unrighteousness in the Kingdom of God. Many twist the scriptures to their own detriment and then they do the works of unrighteousness for which they will perish. Obey Jesus Christ, BE RIGHTEOUS and BE HOLY and ASK Him to give you UNDERSTANDING of the scriptures, which he WILL if you ASK Him.
Do not listen to these unprincipled preachers who take advantage of simple people and deceive them for their own personal gain. They want you to come to their church and listen to their filth, their immorality. Do not fellowship with unprincipled men who live in immorality, whose churches are full of sinners, people who confess to be sinners.
Be righteous, be holy, obey Jesus Christ, even if you walk alone. Follow Jesus Christ, listen to the Holy Spirit and He will guide you into utter righteousness and holiness and you will receive confirmation from the Holy Spirit that Jesus is pleased with you. Be led by the Spirit of God and not by the deception of men who twist the scriptures.
May Jesus bless you.[/QUOTE]

Rom 8:1-11
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV


Titus 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
KJV


Rom 8:33-39
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
KJV

 

[JesusLives]

I was trying to make a point in context of our discussion.. tourist....but thanks

Blond could be wrong but this is the way she sees it...

Jesus died one time on the cross to pay for the penalty of sin.....for EVERYONE ever born....because of free will and power of choice not everyone accepts the free gift of salvation.... OSAS to me means that because Jesus died once for everyone anyone could be saved if they choose to accept the gift, but not all do.....It is one sacrifice for everyone's salvation but not all accept it....

I can tell you in my own lifetime that I have accepted God and was very serious about it but then walked away for a bit and had I died at that time it is highly likely I would have been lost, but God is very patient with me and has wooed me back to Himself more than once.... I am saved by the blood of Jesus, but I have the capability if I decided to that I could get up in the morning and go rob a bank, or commit any other sin if I wanted to do it....but at this point because I love God I choose not to go and do that tomorrow and it is His Holy Spirit working in my life to help me keep from doing that, but the fact is I could do it if I wanted to bad enough.... I don't want to.... God is not forcing me to not rob a bank I look back to the cross and the price Jesus paid for my life and see the love that He gave to me and because of that love I want to love and obey Him.....

I have seen ministers that have served the Lord for years and years and brought many souls to God and then sin and leave the church one such minister I can remember having a conversation with God and saying if he can't make it with all the studying and faith and trust and work he did for You....what chance do I have?

God told me that ministers were people and sinners too not to look to men but to keep my eyes on Him/God...It shook my faith as I had many times gone to Bible studies at this ministers house and had been lead by him and his wife in studying Gods word.... It hurt me to the core and tore my heart out......I prayed so for this minister who left the church.....God knows the final outcome I don't.... but it was a painful time for our church I can tell you that....

 

[valiant]

Yes believing with an "ing" ending which makes it a continuous act, not a one time profession.

No, it means one who believes at the time. The present tense has various meanings. You cannot force on it the meaning that what is spoken of must continue. If I say 'he goes to the shop' it need only mean once. It does not necessarily mean that he constantly goes. It is used simply to make narratives vivid.

However one who believes in Him will necessarily continue do so, because He will ensure that he does, even if sometimes that faith may be at a very low ebb.

The bible clearly shows we are saved by faith in the Lord and that faith is an active one that hangs on love, as the bible clearly says those who do not love do not know God and have the truth abiding in them.

no we are saved by the LORD through faith. It is not faith that saves. It will result in love because the person becomes a new creation.

What happens to those who do not obey the gospel of Christ or depart from the faith?

If they have been truly saved God will kick their backsides, and will reach out and bring them back. That is what being a Saviour involves.

The bible is very clear on this as well and shows that their ending is eternal punishment and not eternal life with the Lord.

You mean that's how you interpret it? The Bible is not 'clear' on the issue at all. Rather it is clear on the fact that once a person belongs to Christ He may chasten them severely but He will never let them go.

 

[ladylynn]

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]
22
Jul[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 14"][/TD]
[TD="width: 100%, align: left"]





Another reason why being rooted and grounded in Him and not our own ability is so important to understand. This is a daily devotional that says it really well. It's the truth we believe that will set us free.






Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"] I would like you to imagine this scenario: You borrow a huge sum of money from a friend and promise to pay him back in six months’ time. When the time comes, you feel really bad because you cannot repay him as you don’t have the money. A year rolls by without you repaying a cent. Now, you feel extremely guilty. You try to avoid your friend because you are too embarrassed and ashamed to see him.

Let’s say that your best friend hears about your plight. Out of the goodness of his heart, he goes to your creditor and says, “Look, I understand that my best friend owes you money.”

“Yes, he owes me US$50,000.”

“Here is US$100,000. I am paying you on his behalf.”

Your creditor says, “No, no, no! He owes me only US$50,000.”

Your best friend says, “I know. But take the US$100,000 so that you can never say that he still owes you money.”

Now, your debt has been paid, in fact, more than paid. But if you don’t know or believe this, that debt will still be on your conscience. You will still be afraid to see your creditor. And you will avoid him because he reminds you of your debt.

My friend, you need to know that Jesus was an overpayment when He offered Himself as your sin offering, because of the quality and worth of the Man Himself. My friend, He overpaid for your sins when He became your sacrifice on the cross.

But if you don’t know or believe this, you will suffer as your unbelief will rob you of assurance, joy and peace. You will still have debt on your conscience. Even though God is not imputing sin to you (Romans 4:8), sin is still on your conscience. And as long as sin is on your conscience, you won’t dare to draw near to Him.

Beloved, the truth is that your sins have been more than paid for. Jesus was an overpayment. So draw near to God today with no sin on your conscience[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Joseph Prince Grace Inspirations

 

[BarlyGurl]

>>>Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24<<

But what did Jesus say... entirely?
and WHO sent him?

 

[mpaper345]

The Bible says that the saints are predestined to salvation,which they believe that God chooses who will be saved in the beginning,which comes once saved always saved,because they believe that if God choose them in the beginning then they cannot fall.

But this is not what this means predestination.

The Bible says that God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,because if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it already happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrances.

Everything was already planned in the beginning before God laid down the foundation of the world,so all future events from then on was the same as if it happened in the beginning,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened.

The Bible says that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later.

Jesus said that the glory that He had in the beginning He will share with the saints,but if He was talking of the glory He had as God in the beginning He would not be able to share that glory,for God does not give His glory to another,so it is obvious that Jesus is speaking that He will obtain a glorified body and sit on the throne in heaven,and the saints can have that glory of having a glorified body and being in heaven.Jesus had a glorified body in the beginning although it did not happen until 4000 years later.

The Old Testament says that Adam was created in the image of God.The New Testament says that Adam was made in the image of Christ.The image of God is the image of Christ.God made Adam in the image that He would appear in the future and that is an innocent nature in flesh.

Since God had the plan to come in the future in flesh and made Adam in that image,then Let us make man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus,for God manifest in the flesh is fully God and fully man,the man Christ Jesus.The man Christ Jesus was in the beginning before He was born because God calls things that have not happened as though they already happnened.

The Bible says that in the beginning was the Word,and the Word was made flesh.

The word of God is God revealing Himself by words written in a book.The Word of God is God revealing Himself personally by being manifest in the flesh.The Word is God manifest in the flesh which did not happen until 4000 years later but was in the beginning.

And other things such as that,that are attributed to being in the beginning,but did not actually happen until a future time.

When the Bible says that the saints are predestined to salvation,it does not mean that God chooses who will be saved in the beginning,but God had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if the saints have that salvation in the beginning,and this salvation is to whoever wants it.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world although it did not happen until 4000 years later,and the saints are predestined to salvation although it did not happen until 4000 years later when the Lamb was slain,and from then on to whoever wants salvation.

The Bible says that many are called but few are chosen,so obviously God does the calling while people are on earth and does the choosing while people are on earth,because God can only call someone while they are on earth,and the choosing comes after the calling.

The Bible says that God is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance,so God wants everybody to be saved.

God says He commands all people to repent of their sins,and why would God want all people to repent of their sins when it would not make a difference to the people He did not choose.

The Bible says that Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world,which means everybody can see the truth of Jesus and be saved.

The Bible says whosoever wants salvation can have salvation.

God chose the whole nation of Israel to follow Him,and gave them His covenant,but not all of them are saved spiritually.

If God does choose who will be saved in the beginning then God's kingdom is not based on true love but robotic love,because these people have no choice but to say,I love you,seeing no other alternative.

You can program your computer to say,I love you,but the computer does not love you,but has no choice but to say,I love you,seeing no other alternative.

God's kingdom would not be robotic love but true love,which if we have a choice then it is true love,and when the Bible says that we did not choose God but He chose us,and no one comes to the Father,but by the Son,it is talking while we are on earth,because nobody can truly come to the truth unless the Father shows them,and God does the calling on earth,and if a person continues in that calling then God will chose them,but not everybody continues in that calling.

The Bible says that all are sinners and come short of the glory of God,and there is none righteous,no not one,and if you offend in the least of the law then you offend in all,so it sounds like every human is in the same boat,so why would God choose some and not others in the beginning when all are of the same cloth.

God choosing some in the beginning to be saved and not others goes against the good nature of God.God is not evil that He would not choose people in the beginning when they did nothing wrong.

Predestined to salvation means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of he world,so it is the same as if the saints have that salvation in the beginning,and that salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.

God does the calling and choosing on earth.

The scriptures say that God wants everybody to be saved and commands all people to repent,and that salvation is to whoever wants it.

God's kingdom is true love and not robotic love,so we have to make the choice to love God,for then it is true love.

God is not evil that He would choose some in the beginning and not others,when all people are in the same boat,and all guilty of sin.

[SUP]12[/SUP] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall(1 Corinthians 10:12).

And this sums it up.If any person thinks they stand,take heed lest you fall,because when a person thinks they cannot fall,that is when they might become relaxed in their walk with God and not measure up and fall,because they think I cannot fall and the flesh might take opportunity of that.Dabble in a little drugs and sexual immorality,hey I cannot fall.Cheat on the wife and steal a little,hey I cannot fall.Be in to worldly pleasures,hey I cannot fall.

Also if God did choose in the beginning and it is a true doctrine,then God would not be upset if you said,I stand and cannot fall,then why would he say,If any person thinks He stands,take heed lest you fall.