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S
I honestly don't know. When you read all the scriptures about Pharaoh some say God hardened his Heart and some say that he hardened his own heart. Possibly God knew the end from the beginning and made an example out of him. In other words if he knew he wouldn't repent and say all his free will choices before he even made them, then why not use him to bring about some good. I honestly don't know.
J
If we read the full account concerning Pharaoh in the book of Exodus, then we see that in some places it says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart while in other places it says that Pharaoh hardened his heart. How can this be? Well, I basically see it like this:
If you put two dishes out on a windowsill on a sunny day and one dish has a stick of butter in it and the other dish has a ball of clay in it, then the same sun will both melt the butter and harden the clay. Did the sun do the melting and hardening all by itself or did both the stick of butter and the ball of clay have a part to play in the same? In the book of Hebrews, we read:
"For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." (Hebrews 6:7-8)
The same rain which falls from heaven produces herbs in certain soil which brings a blessing upon those who have dressed or cultivated the same and brings forth thorns and briers which are rejected and nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned in other soil. Did the rain bring forth the blessings and cursings all by itself or did the different soils have a part to play in the same?
God's sends the light of His Word unto all. Some, because of the prepared soils of their hearts, will be blessed by the same whereas others, because they've refused to allow God to break up the fallowed ground of their hearts, will ultimately be cursed by the same. In Pharaoh's case, I firmly believe that his wicked heart condition to begin with and his refusal to repent is what ultimately led to the further hardening of his own heart.
If you put two dishes out on a windowsill on a sunny day and one dish has a stick of butter in it and the other dish has a ball of clay in it, then the same sun will both melt the butter and harden the clay. Did the sun do the melting and hardening all by itself or did both the stick of butter and the ball of clay have a part to play in the same? In the book of Hebrews, we read:
"For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." (Hebrews 6:7-8)
The same rain which falls from heaven produces herbs in certain soil which brings a blessing upon those who have dressed or cultivated the same and brings forth thorns and briers which are rejected and nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned in other soil. Did the rain bring forth the blessings and cursings all by itself or did the different soils have a part to play in the same?
God's sends the light of His Word unto all. Some, because of the prepared soils of their hearts, will be blessed by the same whereas others, because they've refused to allow God to break up the fallowed ground of their hearts, will ultimately be cursed by the same. In Pharaoh's case, I firmly believe that his wicked heart condition to begin with and his refusal to repent is what ultimately led to the further hardening of his own heart.
J
I read the following somewhere once and it pretty much describes how some people view God (unfortunately):
“Little Johnny, God has predestined the minority of people to be saved and go to heaven forever, and He has predestined the majority of people to be eternally damned and burn in the fires of hell. We have no idea if God has predestined you to be forever damned or forever saved. We love you, little Johnny, but we accept the fact that God might not love you, and that He may have plans to send you to hell for your sins. If you do find yourself one day burning in hell because He hasn't elected to save you, just remember that we will always love you, even if God hates you. Take comfort knowing that we are not like God.
We will be in heaven forever only because we were unconditionally chosen for salvation before we were born. That would be the only reason that we won't be in hell with you if you find yourself there. It won't be because of anything we did. So also take comfort in knowing that. It may not seem fair, but who are we to judge God? So again, if you find yourself in hell, remember that we will always love you as we forever worship the God who loved us but who hated you, the God who sent His Son to die for us but not for you. Please, we ask, don't let it bother you---if you find yourself in hell---that we love the God who hated you and showed you no mercy. We must accept the fact that God is sovereign, and He does what He pleases.”
That is not my God. That's for sure. This is my God:
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (I Timothy 2:1-6)
“Little Johnny, God has predestined the minority of people to be saved and go to heaven forever, and He has predestined the majority of people to be eternally damned and burn in the fires of hell. We have no idea if God has predestined you to be forever damned or forever saved. We love you, little Johnny, but we accept the fact that God might not love you, and that He may have plans to send you to hell for your sins. If you do find yourself one day burning in hell because He hasn't elected to save you, just remember that we will always love you, even if God hates you. Take comfort knowing that we are not like God.
We will be in heaven forever only because we were unconditionally chosen for salvation before we were born. That would be the only reason that we won't be in hell with you if you find yourself there. It won't be because of anything we did. So also take comfort in knowing that. It may not seem fair, but who are we to judge God? So again, if you find yourself in hell, remember that we will always love you as we forever worship the God who loved us but who hated you, the God who sent His Son to die for us but not for you. Please, we ask, don't let it bother you---if you find yourself in hell---that we love the God who hated you and showed you no mercy. We must accept the fact that God is sovereign, and He does what He pleases.”
That is not my God. That's for sure. This is my God:
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (I Timothy 2:1-6)
J
The context was definitely nations and not individuals in relation to another oft-quoted portion of scripture in relation to "election":
"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth); It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:10-13)
I just have to quickly mention that my quote began with "and not only this". IOW, this is another example of what Paul was already describing in relation to "election" and I'll come back to that in a moment. Contextually, when Paul said that God "hated Esau", he was actually referring to the nation of Edom which sprang forth out of Esau. This can be seen by examining the two passages of scripture which Paul actually quoted to make his case, namely the following:
"And Isaac entreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was entreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them." (Genesis 25:21-26)
If you follow the actual individual lives of Jacob and Esau in scripture, then Esau never served Jacob. No, as God had foretold, it was the "nation" or "people" of Esau/Edom who would one day serve the "nation" or "people" of Jacob/Israel and in this sense alone "the elder shall serve the younger". IOW, God was referring to Esau in Paul's quote in Romans on a national level and not on an individual level. Paul also referred to Esau on a national level in his second quote:
"The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever." (Malachi 1:1-4)
First off, this word was given to Israel (Jacob) by God through the prophet Malachi somewhere around 1,400 years after the actual births of Jacob and Esau. Again, contextually, God was not talking about the individuals, Jacob and Esau, but instead about the nations which came about through their lineage or about the nation of Israel (Jacob) and the nation of Edom (Esau). Read the passage again in Malachi. Whereas God had shown and would continue to show mercy to the remnant of Jacob or Israel (He loved Jacob) which truly constitutes being a part of "the Israel of God" (Romans 9:6-7, Galatians 6:16, etc.), He called Edom "the people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever" (He hated Esau). Anyhow, my point is that the "hatred" spoken of in Romans chapter 9 was, contextually, a "hatred" on a national level as opposed to on an individual level. This is not to say, however, that God didn't have ample reasons to "hate" the individual Esau. Esau did despise his birthright and he sold it for some pottage (Genesis 25:29-34) and he never repented of the same (Hebrews 12:15-17) and he is therefore given as an example of one who "failed the grace of God" as a "profane person". Even though God did "love Jacob", this "love" doesn't mean national salvation for Israel because, again, they are not all Israel which are of Israel in God's eyes:
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:6-8)
The point that Paul was building upon in Romans chapter 9 is that salvation has nothing at all to do with one's national identity ("they are not all Israel which are of Israel") and nothing at all to do with one's birth status as the firstborn ("the elder shall serve the younger"), but everything to do with the election of God by grace or through faith in Christ. Much of natural Israel has rejected Christ and they are therefore not a part of "the Israel of God". Similarly, although Esau was the firstborn, he sold his birthright for some pottage and he never truly trusted in Christ and he is therefore not one of God's "elect". God's true "elected" one or true "chosen" one is Jesus Christ and we simply have no "election" ourselves outside of Him:
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law." (Isaiah 42:1-4)
God's "elect" is Jesus Christ as this is Who the prophet Isaiah was speaking of as is confirmed for us in Matthew's gospel:
"Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust." (Matthew 12:14-21)
Again, Jesus Christ is God's "elect" or God's servant "Whom He has chosen". If, when everything is said and done, we are found to be in God's "elect" or in God's "chosen" or in Christ, then we ourselves will have been "elected" or "chosen" in Him. If, on the other hand, when everything is said and done, we are not found to be in God's "elect" or in God's "chosen" or in Christ, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves. As Christians, we are called to give all diligence to make our calling and election sure, even if you're labeled as being a Pharisee (got that one today myself on another thread), a legalist or whatever, and we'd all be wise to do just that:
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (II Peter 2:1-11)
No matter who suggests anything to you to the contrary, Peter admonished Christians to give all diligence while adding several things unto their faith. Those who obey such an admonition and have such things found within themselves in abundance shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and they shall never fail, but they shall instead have an entrance ministered unto them abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Those who disobey such an admonition? Well, they are blind and cannot see afar off and they have forgotten that they were purged from their old sins and the implication is that their calling and election are anything but sure.
"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth); It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:10-13)
I just have to quickly mention that my quote began with "and not only this". IOW, this is another example of what Paul was already describing in relation to "election" and I'll come back to that in a moment. Contextually, when Paul said that God "hated Esau", he was actually referring to the nation of Edom which sprang forth out of Esau. This can be seen by examining the two passages of scripture which Paul actually quoted to make his case, namely the following:
"And Isaac entreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was entreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them." (Genesis 25:21-26)
If you follow the actual individual lives of Jacob and Esau in scripture, then Esau never served Jacob. No, as God had foretold, it was the "nation" or "people" of Esau/Edom who would one day serve the "nation" or "people" of Jacob/Israel and in this sense alone "the elder shall serve the younger". IOW, God was referring to Esau in Paul's quote in Romans on a national level and not on an individual level. Paul also referred to Esau on a national level in his second quote:
"The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever." (Malachi 1:1-4)
First off, this word was given to Israel (Jacob) by God through the prophet Malachi somewhere around 1,400 years after the actual births of Jacob and Esau. Again, contextually, God was not talking about the individuals, Jacob and Esau, but instead about the nations which came about through their lineage or about the nation of Israel (Jacob) and the nation of Edom (Esau). Read the passage again in Malachi. Whereas God had shown and would continue to show mercy to the remnant of Jacob or Israel (He loved Jacob) which truly constitutes being a part of "the Israel of God" (Romans 9:6-7, Galatians 6:16, etc.), He called Edom "the people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever" (He hated Esau). Anyhow, my point is that the "hatred" spoken of in Romans chapter 9 was, contextually, a "hatred" on a national level as opposed to on an individual level. This is not to say, however, that God didn't have ample reasons to "hate" the individual Esau. Esau did despise his birthright and he sold it for some pottage (Genesis 25:29-34) and he never repented of the same (Hebrews 12:15-17) and he is therefore given as an example of one who "failed the grace of God" as a "profane person". Even though God did "love Jacob", this "love" doesn't mean national salvation for Israel because, again, they are not all Israel which are of Israel in God's eyes:
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:6-8)
The point that Paul was building upon in Romans chapter 9 is that salvation has nothing at all to do with one's national identity ("they are not all Israel which are of Israel") and nothing at all to do with one's birth status as the firstborn ("the elder shall serve the younger"), but everything to do with the election of God by grace or through faith in Christ. Much of natural Israel has rejected Christ and they are therefore not a part of "the Israel of God". Similarly, although Esau was the firstborn, he sold his birthright for some pottage and he never truly trusted in Christ and he is therefore not one of God's "elect". God's true "elected" one or true "chosen" one is Jesus Christ and we simply have no "election" ourselves outside of Him:
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law." (Isaiah 42:1-4)
God's "elect" is Jesus Christ as this is Who the prophet Isaiah was speaking of as is confirmed for us in Matthew's gospel:
"Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust." (Matthew 12:14-21)
Again, Jesus Christ is God's "elect" or God's servant "Whom He has chosen". If, when everything is said and done, we are found to be in God's "elect" or in God's "chosen" or in Christ, then we ourselves will have been "elected" or "chosen" in Him. If, on the other hand, when everything is said and done, we are not found to be in God's "elect" or in God's "chosen" or in Christ, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves. As Christians, we are called to give all diligence to make our calling and election sure, even if you're labeled as being a Pharisee (got that one today myself on another thread), a legalist or whatever, and we'd all be wise to do just that:
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (II Peter 2:1-11)
No matter who suggests anything to you to the contrary, Peter admonished Christians to give all diligence while adding several things unto their faith. Those who obey such an admonition and have such things found within themselves in abundance shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and they shall never fail, but they shall instead have an entrance ministered unto them abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Those who disobey such an admonition? Well, they are blind and cannot see afar off and they have forgotten that they were purged from their old sins and the implication is that their calling and election are anything but sure.
A
You're right, there never was free will. Our will is restricted to our nature. Our nature is sin nature. Our nature dictates that we hide in the dark to keep our sins. We freely move within that nature. It's God who plucks us out of our will. It's free agency, not free will.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment:the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
And, you're right. We don't deserve it. No one does. We honestly and truly all deserve to be separate from God, die, and go to hell.
Romans 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
We really aren't special. It really isn't something we deserve anymore than anyone else. We didn't do it. We freely sinned. God had mercy on some.
Double predestination? Not really sure what that means. I do know God predestined those he chose, not that we deserved any of it, but that God loves enough and has mercy enough to have made a righteous way for those the Father has chosen. We were all "destined" to hell. (Destined. Still don't like that word, since it has taken on a feeling that no one is in control of anything. Some force plays willy-nilly on all. The force has a name -- God.)
Read Romans all the way through in one sitting. Paul explains this clearly. The problem with too many churches and too many Christians is we don't read it as one treatise. Romans is the Christian doctrine all wrapped up in one book. The churches that don't like predestined usually stop at the end of Romans 8 somewhere, but Romans 9 clarifies any doubt on the question of it if it's about foreknowing. It IS about foreknowing. God has always known none would come to him, unless he chooses us. It has nothing to do with how good we are. Esau was a nicer guy than Jacob, yet "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."
So, yes! Same God. You just discovered another aspect of him that is avoided in many churches. John 6:35-40 shows God at work despite our will.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment:the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
And, you're right. We don't deserve it. No one does. We honestly and truly all deserve to be separate from God, die, and go to hell.
Romans 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
We really aren't special. It really isn't something we deserve anymore than anyone else. We didn't do it. We freely sinned. God had mercy on some.
Double predestination? Not really sure what that means. I do know God predestined those he chose, not that we deserved any of it, but that God loves enough and has mercy enough to have made a righteous way for those the Father has chosen. We were all "destined" to hell. (Destined. Still don't like that word, since it has taken on a feeling that no one is in control of anything. Some force plays willy-nilly on all. The force has a name -- God.)
Read Romans all the way through in one sitting. Paul explains this clearly. The problem with too many churches and too many Christians is we don't read it as one treatise. Romans is the Christian doctrine all wrapped up in one book. The churches that don't like predestined usually stop at the end of Romans 8 somewhere, but Romans 9 clarifies any doubt on the question of it if it's about foreknowing. It IS about foreknowing. God has always known none would come to him, unless he chooses us. It has nothing to do with how good we are. Esau was a nicer guy than Jacob, yet "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."
So, yes! Same God. You just discovered another aspect of him that is avoided in many churches. John 6:35-40 shows God at work despite our will.
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Yeah, you need scripture to read, because it IS true. It goes against our very nature, but we're right back to our nature is sin nature, so, of course it goes against our nature. Your answers are found in Gospel of John and Romans. The whole books! Read them through, instead of a little here and a little there. You may believe many things. Isn't it more important to find out what God believes?
God doesn't save all. That's a given. So the obvious question is "Then what did he do?" He didn't hide it. It's in there. It's just that many don't want the truth, so continue to recreate a god they can deal with.
God doesn't save all. That's a given. So the obvious question is "Then what did he do?" He didn't hide it. It's in there. It's just that many don't want the truth, so continue to recreate a god they can deal with.
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Justice. (Answering your questions.) Did God stop being just because it's uncomfortable for us?
What was the point of the Tower of Babel? Do you think those people were saved?
What was the point of Pharaoh? Do you think he was saved?
What was the point of Pontius Pilate, Herod, or the Sanhedrin? Do you think they were saved?
It all matters, but it all matters so God gets whom he chooses and refines those to his image and will.
What was the point of the Tower of Babel? Do you think those people were saved?
What was the point of Pharaoh? Do you think he was saved?
What was the point of Pontius Pilate, Herod, or the Sanhedrin? Do you think they were saved?
It all matters, but it all matters so God gets whom he chooses and refines those to his image and will.
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No, God already chose Joshua, so it wasn't what Joshua chose. It was what he accepted.
And, yes, it does promote spiritual growth considering most here seem to believe the one way to God is by their choice. The Bible says it's by Jesus. Jesus says he will gather all the ones his Father chose for him.
And, yes, it does promote spiritual growth considering most here seem to believe the one way to God is by their choice. The Bible says it's by Jesus. Jesus says he will gather all the ones his Father chose for him.