Are We Really Predestined?

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ambassadorinchains

Guest
#321
#321
JesusistheChrist said:
That's basically it in a nutshell. Why did Jesus Christ say that men will be condemned? Did He say that it is because God predestined them to the same? Not at all. Here, instead, is what He said:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:14-21)

Although Jesus said "whosoever believes" can and will be saved, the spokespersons of a foreign "god" would have us to believe that Jesus actually said "whosoever God predestined" will be saved.

Although Jesus said that people will be condemned because "they hate the light", Jesus, and "love darkness", Satan and his works, the spokespersons of a foreign "god" would have us to believe that Jesus actually said that men will be condemned "because God predestined" the same.

I choose to believe Jesus.
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The answer to "whosoever will" is easy. If an unregenerate man (someone not born again) would repent and accept Christ, he would be saved. But he won't because, in his unregenerate nature, he will never choose to repent and accept Christ, because he is dead in his trespasses and sins. Thus, the unregenerate person is part of the "whosoever" and he has free will, but he will use that free will, in accordance with his nature, to reject God.
 
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ambassadorinchains

Guest
#322
#322
elf3 said:
Only through Jesus Christ can we have eternal life one way or another. It is through Christ we have eternal life whether you believe in predestination or not. We cannot believe in, or not believe, predestination or election and go to heaven if we do not first have Christ. So is eternal life hinged upon that belief or unbelief or is it hinged upon Christ?

If we say eternal salvation is hinged upon anything other than Christ then we begin to water down the blood of Christ making our salvation dependant also upon us.
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If a person believes they earned their salvation by cooperating with God's grace are they saved? If someone believes something inside them caused them to choose to repent and accept Christ, then it seems they woud think they were better somehow than someone who rejects Christ. They would have reason to "boast." Understanding the gospel correctly is important to salvation. So, this could be the reason Arminianism was deemed a heresy in the early centuries of the Reformation.
 
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ambassadorinchains

Guest
#323
#323
valiant said:
What you first have to recognise is that in a sense God predestined us all for Hell, for He knew when He created us that we would sin. Thus He created us as 'soon to be' Hell bound sinners.

Going by the arguments some make surely a loving Father figure would only have allowed to live those whom He knew would go to Heaven ? The truth is that the dilemma is unavoidable. God created a world where He knew that the vast majority would go to Hell.

If words mean anything the Scriptures taken at face value leave us in no doubt that those who are saved are those who are chosen by God. Clever devils can wriggle their way out of it, but only by devious methods (I know, I tried).

Obvious examples are John 6.44; Romans 9.15-24; 8.29-30; Eph 1.3-14.
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I just came to this debate today. I realize the debate has mostly abated. I agree with your comments about JITC. And my theology is reformed.

But it's not helpful to say "in a sense" all of us were predestined to Hell. Although I know what you mean, this statement is a distortion of the term "predestination," and might confuse some people.

The truth is we would all go to Hell without God's intervention. He elected/predestined some to intervention and others to no intervention. Double predestination is an unavoidable conclusion. Who are we to judge God for creating this world. As you noted, all the other views have a simlar issue: God created people knowing many would perish.

Many of the early posters in this thread don't believe in the supremacy of Scripture. They subjugate clear Scripture to their own concept of a loving God. That is very dangerous for them, if that's their usual approach to their relationship with God.
 
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