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A
No. That's not biblical. That's semipelagianism. The great compromise to relieve the reality of God.
Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had free will which when exercised resulted in the Fall.
After the Fall, man's will was bound to satans's will unless moved upon by God's grace.
After conversion, we have free will to serve God or satan/self.
The question becomes, concerning being predestined, does God in His grace, move upon all equally or moreso on His elect?
After the Fall, man's will was bound to satans's will unless moved upon by God's grace.
After conversion, we have free will to serve God or satan/self.
The question becomes, concerning being predestined, does God in His grace, move upon all equally or moreso on His elect?
J
Well, I agree with you on one point:
We ought to read the entire epistle to the Romans and not just cherry-pick certain parts of it. If we do read the entire epistle, then what do we find? Well, we find the following at least:
"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:3-11)
God will render to every man according to his deeds and He is no respecter of persons. Somebody probably had a coronary while reading that because they've been so trained to shout "LEGALIST!" at the mere thought of such, but such is the Word of God nonetheless.
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28-29)
Being a natural born Jew and having an outward circumcision in the foreskin of one's flesh accounts for diddly-squat in relation to salvation. One needs to be circumcised in the heart or in the spirit in order to be accounted as being a part of "the Israel of God". That, too, will set some in a frenzy, but, once again, it is Biblical truth.
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26)
The whole world is initially guilty before God and desperately in need of a Saviour and God justifies those who believe in Jesus.
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:15-19)
Through one man's, Adam's, disobedience all were initially condemned for "in Adam all die" (I Corinthians 15:22), but through one man's, Jesus', obedience all can be made righteous for "in Christ all shall be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:22).
Etc., etc.
IOW, again, God is no respecter of persons and one's nationality, one's outward circumcision, one's outward receiving of the law, one's natural birthright, etc., etc. all have no bearing whatsoever upon whether or not one will ultimately be saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and those who hear and believe are justified and thereby "elected" in Christ.
We ought to read the entire epistle to the Romans and not just cherry-pick certain parts of it. If we do read the entire epistle, then what do we find? Well, we find the following at least:
"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:3-11)
God will render to every man according to his deeds and He is no respecter of persons. Somebody probably had a coronary while reading that because they've been so trained to shout "LEGALIST!" at the mere thought of such, but such is the Word of God nonetheless.
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28-29)
Being a natural born Jew and having an outward circumcision in the foreskin of one's flesh accounts for diddly-squat in relation to salvation. One needs to be circumcised in the heart or in the spirit in order to be accounted as being a part of "the Israel of God". That, too, will set some in a frenzy, but, once again, it is Biblical truth.
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26)
The whole world is initially guilty before God and desperately in need of a Saviour and God justifies those who believe in Jesus.
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:15-19)
Through one man's, Adam's, disobedience all were initially condemned for "in Adam all die" (I Corinthians 15:22), but through one man's, Jesus', obedience all can be made righteous for "in Christ all shall be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:22).
Etc., etc.
IOW, again, God is no respecter of persons and one's nationality, one's outward circumcision, one's outward receiving of the law, one's natural birthright, etc., etc. all have no bearing whatsoever upon whether or not one will ultimately be saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and those who hear and believe are justified and thereby "elected" in Christ.
V
The Apostle Paul heard God's Voice. He also talked with God. In I Corinthians, Paul says, "In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God." (He was saying it was his opinion. just like Blain is). And when did Paul ever have a Bible to confirm everything? He could not have because it was being written at the time. God will speak whichever way He likes. Even if it's through a talking donkey... or even through me. 
A
Yup, perfectly well aligned. Starts at the beginning and works its way through every possible contingency. Why stop at 3? Keep going. All the way through.
It gets right back to the ONLY way to God is through the Messiah, the only way to the Messiah is through God, and no one -- absolutely no one is saved by their choice. (That would be a second way, not the only way.)
It gets right back to the ONLY way to God is through the Messiah, the only way to the Messiah is through God, and no one -- absolutely no one is saved by their choice. (That would be a second way, not the only way.)
J
And you're going to somehow back up that assertion, right? I've read the entire epistle to the Romans more times than I can even imagine to guess at, so I'm not ignoring anything. Also, I don't want God to be anything other than Who He truly is, so you really should lay of the false allegations. Now, if you want to discuss these things civilly and without throwing around totally baseless accusations, then I'll be more than happy to engage you in conversation. Thank you.
Crossnote you completely misunderstood what I was saying. When I am praying to God I am not simply asking him for things or doing a father who art in heaven I am talking to him as if we are face to face like one would a cherished friend or a beloved father I pour my heart out to him I speak with him about all things and sometimes I hear him speak back.
I never once said that scripture is not authority and that we should close our bibles and you should know me better than that by now what I did say is scripture alone isnt enough because if we dont know who God is or what his nature is than we will be blind as to what the scriptures say.
I never once said that scripture is not authority and that we should close our bibles and you should know me better than that by now what I did say is scripture alone isnt enough because if we dont know who God is or what his nature is than we will be blind as to what the scriptures say.
J
You were doing fine until you said "absolutely no one is saved by their choice". Are you set to defend that claim scripturally and preferably from the epistle to the Romans which we're presently discussing? It doesn't have to be from that epistle, but you can't just make claims without any Biblical support, can you? Where's the beef?
J
Btw, I'm a pretty good-natured guy, so please don't read this in the wrong tone. In all honesty, when I first engaged myself in this thread, I thought, "atwhatcost is going to show up and start hitting people over their heads with a rolling pin"...and here you are. lol. I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards you. It's just that I read in your other thread yesterday that you are "Reformed" and something told me that you were going to be here shortly. This could be an interesting conversation, but you really do need to back up your assertions with scripture or else they're going to be viewed as nothing more and nothing less than just your opinion. Again, no offense intended. I'm not mad at you or anything and I hope that we can discuss these things in a scriptural manner. I'm sorry if I sounded agitated or grumpy in my above quote. It wasn't my intent. Thank you.
P.S. If you bribe me with chocolate, then I'll be even nicer to you. lol.
P.S. If you bribe me with chocolate, then I'll be even nicer to you. lol.
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