To comfort those who speak in tongues

[peacefulbeliever]

Gr8Grace, if you were not in some danger spiritually I would not need to correct you on this issue. As I have stated repeatedly, you don't need to speak in tongues to be saved. BUT you DO need to receive the Spirit of Christ in order to be saved: He is the Holy Spirit....without Whom Jesus will say to you "I don't know you", as the wise and foolish virgins scripture illustrates. Also if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Romans 8:9)

James 2:19 says, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


So believing in itself is not enough, you need to then receive the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ: the Holy Spirit. This happens when you are born again.

You are implying because someone does not manifest the Spirit within them; they are not saved; i.e. if they do not speak in tongues they are not saved. That is not true . . .

When you come face to face with Jesus, will you meet Him with enough confidence in the Holy Spirit to know you are going to be received by Him? Is the oil in your lamp sufficient to go the distance?

We are all sealed with the Holy Spirit at new birth, but then we are admonished to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and then to trust that Jesus will baptize us in the Holy Spirit, and it is in this latter experience where many receive the gift of tongues....but with or without tongues at this point there is much other evidence of the experience through ministry, giftings, callings, and all accompanied by a demonstration of the power of God.

When we are born again we are sealed with the holy Spirit . . . being born again, being sealed, being baptized in the Spirit being filled with the Spirit, etc. ALL occurs with the new birth. The nine manifestations are all wrapped up within that new birth . . . that new creation. Does operating the manifestation of the Spirit give us "power"? Yep . . . and there is power in receiving revelation from God - word of wisdom, word of knowledge, there is power in discerning of spirits, faith, working of miracles, etc. NOT just in tongues or tongues with interpretation and whether a believer acknowledges that they are receiving words of wisdom or words of knowledge, faith, discerning of spirits - I betcha they are using these manifestations in their daily lives.

If your doctrine teaches that the demonstration of the power of God in signs and wonders is no more, where does that leave you? Outside of a closed door hearing Jesus say "I don't know you"? Outside of a closed door with a lamp gone out? Or worse, reluctantly realising you need your own oil supply and being excluded while you belatedly seek what the wise virgins already have?

This is where the salvation issue is, quite clearly. Please think about this seriously.

Again you are implying that if a believer does not manifest tongues; they are not saved. I can have a light bulb but it will just be a "light bulb" with no purpose or just be "dormant" until I utilize it by connecting it to a power source . . . but I still have the light bulb!

You know in your own heart whether or not you have sufficient for today, if you were to come face to face with Him. But none of us knows what is around the corner that we may face in our lives as conditions worldwide begin to deteriorate. This is where the wisdom comes in: wouldn't it be much better to seek the Lord for an infilling and baptism of the Holy Spirit now, and be confident in your own supply, rather than write everyone off who has already received what you need? Wouldn't it be better to receive a demonstration of the power of God in your own personal life right now, in order to go the distance...however long or short that distance is?

I do not mean any of this as an "argument" but I disagree that speaking in tongues is mandatory to being saved. Does speaking in tongues strengthen your relationship with the Father . . . yes, I do believe that. Does speaking in tongues enable a more intimate relationship with the Father . . . yes, I do believe that. If you don't speak in tongues you are not saved, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ do not dwell in you . . don't believe that.

 

[convallaria]

You are implying because someone does not manifest the Spirit within them; they are not saved; i.e. if they do not speak in tongues they are not saved. That is not true . . .

When we are born again we are sealed with the holy Spirit . . . being born again, being sealed, being baptized in the Spirit being filled with the Spirit, etc. ALL occurs with the new birth. The nine manifestations are all wrapped up within that new birth . . . that new creation. Does operating the manifestation of the Spirit give us "power"? Yep . . . and there is power in receiving revelation from God - word of wisdom, word of knowledge, there is power in discerning of spirits, faith, working of miracles, etc. NOT just in tongues or tongues with interpretation and whether a believer acknowledges that they are receiving words of wisdom or words of knowledge, faith, discerning of spirits - I betcha they are using these manifestations in their daily lives.

Again you are implying that if a believer does not manifest tongues; they are not saved. I can have a light bulb but it will just be a "light bulb" with no purpose or just be "dormant" until I utilize it by connecting it to a power source . . . but I still have the light bulb!

I do not mean any of this as an "argument" but I disagree that speaking in tongues is mandatory to being saved. Does speaking in tongues strengthen your relationship with the Father . . . yes, I do believe that. Does speaking in tongues enable a more intimate relationship with the Father . . . yes, I do believe that. If you don't speak in tongues you are not saved, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ do not dwell in you . . don't believe that.

For goodness sake, how many more times do I have to say it? I even put it in BOLD TYPE above and you quoted it!!!!

YOU NO NOT NEED TO SPEAK IN TONGUES TO BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read my post again carefully, and try not to tell me I said things which I plainly didn't!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

For goodness sake, how many more times do I have to say it? I even put it in BOLD TYPE above and you quoted it!!!!

YOU NO NOT NEED TO SPEAK IN TONGUES TO BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read my post again carefully, and try not to tell me I said things which I plainly didn't!

Again . . . I am not promoting an argument . . . I am not wanting you to be angry . . . and I did read your post.

You did say "As I have stated repeatedly, you don't need to speak in tongues to be saved." then followed it by "BUT you DO need to receive the Spirit of Christ in order to be saved: He is the Holy Spirit....without Whom Jesus will say to you "I don't know you", as the wise and foolish virgins scripture illustrates. Also if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Romans 8:9)" . . . . as if they haven't received the Spirit of Christ and thus are not born again; i.e. saved which SEEMS that you are implying that one who doesn't believe or manifest the Spirit does not have the Spirit of Christ. (remember what the contraction BUT does - it sets in contrast what was said before)

So IT SEEMS that out of one side of your mouth you say YOU NO NOT NEED TO SPEAK IN TONGUES TO BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! then out the other side of your mouth you say . . . but you don't have the Spirit of Christ . . . . "you DO need to receive the Spirit of Christ in order to be saved . . .Also if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Romans 8:9)"

If one is born again - one is saved . . . if they are born again then the Spirit of Christ dwells in them.

 

[convallaria]

Again . . . I am not promoting an argument . . . I am not wanting you to be angry . . . and I did read your post.

So IT SEEMS that out of one side of your mouth you say YOU NO NOT NEED TO SPEAK IN TONGUES TO BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! then out the other side of your mouth you say . . . but you don't have the Spirit of Christ . . . . "you DO need to receive the Spirit of Christ in order to be saved . . .Also if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Romans 8:9)"

Both sides of my mouth agree LOL. Correct, you DO need the Spirit of Christ to be saved...God says it (not me) in Romans 8:9 as you quoted me.

That doesn't disagree with the other comment YOU NO NOT NEED TO SPEAK IN TONGUES TO BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tongues is not the ONLY manifestation/gift of the Spirit so obviously if you have the Holy Spirit He will manifest in some way and this is what we need as assurance that we have Him.


You then inserted an accusation that wasn’t there, that I am saying gr8grace does not have the Holy Spirit. That makes it a false accusation because as I said, we all are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we are born again. But we are admonished not only to be sealed but to be filled and also baptized in the Holy Spirit. These things do not happen automatically on believing or we wouldn't be commanded to "be filled".

In your previous post you said this:

". . being born again, being sealed, being baptized in the Spirit being filled with the Spirit, etc. ALL occurs with the new birth."


This isn’t accurate because everything beyond being sealed with the Holy Spirit is subsequent, otherwise we would not need to be admonished to be filled, as I said.


The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a personal powerful experience of the presence of God, subsequent to conversion, which anyone who has received it can never forget, because it is is totally life-changing.

My point with gr8grace is that it is not wise to assume we have all we need when we are saying (as she says) that no one has proof of these things we are discussing, whereas if we have received all these things we have our proof, and through that proof we are 100% confident that the gifts (including tongues) and callings and manifestations of God are indeed FOR TODAY.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Both sides of my mouth agree LOL. Correct, you DO need the Spirit of Christ to be saved...God says it (not me) in Romans 8:9 as you quoted me.

That doesn't disagree with the other comment YOU NO NOT NEED TO SPEAK IN TONGUES TO BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tongues is not the ONLY manifestation/gift of the Spirit so obviously if you have the Holy Spirit He will manifest in some way and this is what we need as assurance that we have Him.


You then inserted an accusation that wasn’t there, that I am saying gr8grace does not have the Holy Spirit. That makes it a false accusation because as I said, we all are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we are born again. But we are admonished not only to be sealed but to be filled and also baptized in the Holy Spirit. These things do not happen automatically on believing or we wouldn't be commanded to "be filled".

In your previous post you said this:

". . being born again, being sealed, being baptized in the Spirit being filled with the Spirit, etc. ALL occurs with the new birth."


This isn’t accurate because everything beyond being sealed with the Holy Spirit is subsequent, otherwise we would not need to be admonished to be filled, as I said.


The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a personal powerful experience of the presence of God, subsequent to conversion, which anyone who has received it can never forget, because it is is totally life-changing.

My point with gr8grace is that it is not wise to assume we have all we need when we are saying (as she says) that no one has proof of these things we are discussing, whereas if we have received all these things we have our proof, and through that proof we are 100% confident that the gifts (including tongues) and callings and manifestations of God are indeed FOR TODAY.

If they're "for today" then why does the Bible say that they will cease?
Why does Paul stop talking about tongues and prophecy in his latter letters?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Originally Posted by Gr8grace

Its a very hard subject to discuss....................because it is emotions that rule this movement. not objectivity from the Word.




No PW this is wrong!!! It is only a hard subject to discuss for those who refuse what God plainly says in His word. The emotionalism is on their part, quite clearly, not ours. Speaking in tongues is not about fighting each other with whipped up emotions. Speaking in tongues is a God given language through which He accomplishes in the Spirit what cannot be accomplished in the flesh.

1 Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Speaking mysteries unto God is not emotionalism, it is a demonstration of the power of God to do what man alone cannot even conceive of.

The emotions we were referring to were displayed by those who claim to have the gift of tongues -- those words of yours and embers, which I addressed in a previous post.

You two repeatedly have focused on what you perceived as offensive rather than focusing on the truth in peoples' statements!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Both sides of my mouth agree LOL. Correct, you DO need the Spirit of Christ to be saved...God says it (not me) in Romans 8:9 as you quoted me.

That doesn't disagree with the other comment YOU NO NOT NEED TO SPEAK IN TONGUES TO BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tongues is not the ONLY manifestation/gift of the Spirit so obviously if you have the Holy Spirit He will manifest in some way and this is what we need as assurance that we have Him.

You then inserted an accusation that wasn’t there, that I am saying gr8grace does not have the Holy Spirit. That makes it a false accusation because as I said, we all are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we are born again. But we are admonished not only to be sealed but to be filled and also baptized in the Holy Spirit. These things do not happen automatically on believing or we wouldn't be commanded to "be filled".

Okay . . . I just must have trouble getting my brain working this morning . . .

In your previous post you said this:

". . being born again, being sealed, being baptized in the Spirit being filled with the Spirit, etc. ALL occurs with the new birth."

This isn’t accurate because everything beyond being sealed with the Holy Spirit is subsequent, otherwise we would not need to be admonished to be filled, as I said.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a personal powerful experience of the presence of God, subsequent to conversion, which anyone who has received it can never forget, because it is is totally life-changing.

We will just have to disagree here . . . Being born of the Spirit, you are baptized in the Spirit and being immersed in the Spirit is being filled . . . .

My point with gr8grace is that it is not wise to assume we have all we need when we are saying (as she says) that no one has proof of these things we are discussing, whereas if we have received all these things we have our proof, and through that proof we are 100% confident that the gifts (including tongues) and callings and manifestations of God are indeed FOR TODAY.

I also am 100% confident that the manifestation of the Spirit is for today. I think that what has turned most against tongues and tongues with interpretation is the way that these manifestations are being handled in the church today.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

That isn't answering my question, it is avoiding it.

Jesus said "Marvel not that I said ye MUST be born again" ...it isn't one of our many Christian options: it is a command.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I hope you start to see how serious this is PW.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

If we are born again, whether tongues or interpretation or any other gift or manifestation listed, there will be SOME demonstration of the power of God.

To speak of that power is not emotionalism, and it is not boasting: it is testimony.

No, I did not avoid your question -- I answered it very well. Your understanding of 'born again' seems to be different than that of mine.

I have acknowledged that I am a Sinner. I have repented and accepted God's free gift of Grace through Jesus Christ. I have been baptised (both by water and the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, our Lord!).
Acts 2:38 ESV

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Repent, be baptized, you will receive.... There is nothing I need to do in order to receive the Holy Spirit, other than ask.

 

[Gr8grace]

Gr8Grace, if you were not in some danger spiritually I would not need to correct you on this issue. As I have stated repeatedly, you don't need to speak in tongues to be saved. BUT you DO need to receive the Spirit of Christ in order to be saved: He is the Holy Spirit....without Whom Jesus will say to you "I don't know you", as the wise and foolish virgins scripture illustrates. Also if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Romans 8:9)

James 2:19 says, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


So believing in itself is not enough, you need to then receive the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ: the Holy Spirit. This happens when you are born again.

When you come face to face with Jesus, will you meet Him with enough confidence in the Holy Spirit to know you are going to be received by Him? Is the oil in your lamp sufficient to go the distance?

We are all sealed with the Holy Spirit at new birth, but then we are admonished to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and then to trust that Jesus will baptize us in the Holy Spirit, and it is in this latter experience where many receive the gift of tongues....but with or without tongues at this point there is much other evidence of the experience through ministry, giftings, callings, and all accompanied by a demonstration of the power of God.

If your doctrine teaches that the demonstration of the power of God in signs and wonders is no more, where does that leave you? Outside of a closed door hearing Jesus say "I don't know you"? Outside of a closed door with a lamp gone out? Or worse, reluctantly realising you need your own oil supply and being excluded while you belatedly seek what the wise virgins already have?

This is where the salvation issue is, quite clearly. Please think about this seriously.

You know in your own heart whether or not you have sufficient for today, if you were to come face to face with Him. But none of us knows what is around the corner that we may face in our lives as conditions worldwide begin to deteriorate. This is where the wisdom comes in: wouldn't it be much better to seek the Lord for an infilling and baptism of the Holy Spirit now, and be confident in your own supply, rather than write everyone off who has already received what you need? Wouldn't it be better to receive a demonstration of the power of God in your own personal life right now, in order to go the distance...however long or short that distance is?

Tongues ceased in 70 AD. The tongues of today are emotions or demonic.

God had Israel for His Client nation. This nation was to be free and have the freedom to spread the Gospel to all other nations and people. As long as this nation stayed positive to God and spread the Gospel, God protected Israel.

Israel fell away, and they went negative towards God. God puts His client nation through 5 cycles of discipline to get that nation "back on track". Each cycle of discipline gets worse so as to wake people up. If the Nation does not heed the discipline the 5th cycle ends that nations client status and God Goes to a nation that is positive to Him.

1st ~~ Leviticus 26:16-17
2nd ~~ Leviticus 26:18-20
3rd `~ Leviticus 26:21-22
4th ~~ Leviticus 26:23-26
5th ~~ Leviticus 26:27-38; descriptive in Deuteronomy 28:49-67

In Isaiah 28, the prophet warns Israel of the coming 5th cycle of discipline.

Isaiah 28:2 (NASB95)
2 Behold, the Lord has a strong and mighty agent(The Jews were dispersed as a nation in 70 AD);
As a storm of hail, a tempest of destruction,
Like a storm of mighty overflowing waters,
He has cast itdown to the earth with His hand.


Isaiah 28:11 (NASB95)
11 Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,


1 Corinthians 14:21 (NASB95)
21 In the Law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak tothis people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says the Lord.

While members of the church had the Gift,the impact of the Gift was for "this people"......Israel.


What was the purpose of tongues? And what did God want to accomplish through the Sign gift of tongues?


1 Corinthians 14:22 (NASB95)
22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.


1 Corinthians 14:21 (NASB95)
21 In the Law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak tothis people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says the Lord.

Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Israel, that they were about to have the 5th cycle of discipline administered to their nation. And they would be dispersed as a nation. And tongues ceased to "this people" in 70 AD when God administered His 5th cycle of discipline.


Isaiah 28:1 (NASB95)
1 Woe to the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,
And to the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
Which is at the head of the fertile valley
Of those who are overcome with wine!


Isaiah 28:2 (NASB95)
2 Behold, the Lord has a strong and mighty agent(Jerusalem was overthrown by a foreign agent);
As a storm of hail, a tempest of destruction,
Like a storm of mighty overflowing waters,
He has cast itdown to the earth with His hand.

 

[convallaria]

If they're "for today" then why does the Bible say that they will cease?

Answer: Because "will cease" is in the future tense and we haven't got to that point yet! There is nothing in the Bible to say that "will cease" has changed to "has ceased" so the cessationists are making that up.

Why does Paul stop talking about tongues and prophecy in his latter letters?

Answer, because Paul and the other apostles laid hands on all for the baptism with the Holy Spirit so they were all prophesying and speaking in tongues. There was no need to write the same letters about receiving when they had already received, unlike CC.

Come to think of it, that is why we have to repeat the same lessons on here BECAUSE MANY HAVE NOT RECEIVED YET.

 

[convallaria]

The emotions we were referring to were displayed by those who claim to have the gift of tongues -- those words of yours and embers, which I addressed in a previous post.

You two repeatedly have focused on what you perceived as offensive rather than focusing on the truth in peoples' statements!

That would be because their statements are not true PW, and if you think they are you need to reconsider, pray, and read your Bible.

 

[convallaria]

Okay . . . I just must have trouble getting my brain working this morning . . .

We will just have to disagree here . . . Being born of the Spirit, you are baptized in the Spirit and being immersed in the Spirit is being filled . . . .

I also am 100% confident that the manifestation of the Spirit is for today. I think that what has turned most against tongues and tongues with interpretation is the way that these manifestations are being handled in the church today.

I am beginning to like you a lot sister! You have got guts

 

[convallaria]

No, I did not avoid your question -- I answered it very well. Your understanding of 'born again' seems to be different than that of mine.

I have acknowledged that I am a Sinner. I have repented and accepted God's free gift of Grace through Jesus Christ. I have been baptised (both by water and the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, our Lord!).
Acts 2:38 ESV

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Repent, be baptized, you will receive.... There is nothing I need to do in order to receive the Holy Spirit, other than ask.

Tell me what happened when you were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It was awesome when it happened to me! I love to hear how the Lord has baptized His saints with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Something never to be forgotten, amen?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Answer: Because "will cease" is in the future tense and we haven't got to that point yet!

We got to that point in 96 AD when John finished recording his personal Revelation from God. Despite your denial, there is little doubt "the perfect" -- being a neuter and not a masculine -- is the canon, not Christ Himself.

There is nothing in the Bible to say that "will cease" has changed to "has ceased" so the cessationists are making that up.

Again, 1 Corinthians 13 tells us more or less when it will cease, if you have an open enough mind to read it for what it says.

Answer, because Paul and the other apostles laid hands on all for the baptism with the Holy Spirit so they were all prophesying and speaking in tongues.

Bull. That's a very uninformed view of what the New Testament actually teaches. What you have said here is what you have been taught by misguided men. Nothing int he New Testament says the Holy Spirit was "given to all" by the laying on of hands. The Holy Spirit is given by the hand of God at the moment of salvation, and the only filling there is, is the filling we seek daily in our prayer, study, and meditation time.

There was no need to write the same letters about receiving when they had already received, unlike CC.

Come to think of it, that is why we have to repeat the same lessons on here BECAUSE MANY HAVE NOT RECEIVED YET.

The reason Paul stop writing about them is because they ceased, or were in the process of doing so and Paul saw no need to continue to teach about a set of gifts that would soon be part of the past. For example, it is clear several of his traveling companions and fellow evangelists became ill in the latter part of the first century. This has been pointed out to you several times, and you've never attempted to explain why he was unable to heal them. It is just more indication that you choose to believe traditions of men -- traditions that are barely a century old, no less -- rather than doctrines of God.

 

[convallaria]

[h=1]Cessationism and Rebellion[/h] Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-20)
Verses 19-22 discuss the apostolic policy toward prophecy. Paul writes, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” but he tells the Christians to “test everything.”
Cessationism is the false doctrine that the manifestations of miraculous endowments such as those listed in 1 Corinthians 12 have ceased since the days of the apostles and the completion of the Bible. Although there is no biblical evidence for this position, a main motive for this invention is to secure the sufficiency of Scripture and the finality (completion) of Scripture. However, it has been shown that the continuation of miraculous manifestations does not in fact contradict these two doctrines or put them at risk. Thus cessationism is both unbiblical and unnecessary.

More than that, cessationism is also evil and dangerous.
This is because if cessationism is false, then those who advocate this doctrine are preaching rebellion against the Lord.

The Bible commands Christians, “Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy” (1 Corinthians 14:1). If cessationism is correct but we do not know it, then we could still safely obey this instruction, although we will not receive what we desire. That is, if prophecy has ceased but I think that it continues, then I could still desire the gift of prophecy in accordance with this command, but I will not receive the gift of prophecy. No harm is done.
On the other hand, since the cessationist teaches that prophecy has ceased, then although the Bible says “desire spiritual gifts,” he will not desire spiritual gifts, since the spiritual gifts are no longer in operation, and what gifts people think they have are necessarily false. This also applies to prophecy in particular. So although Paul says, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” the cessationist must treat all prophecies with contempt, since he believes that prophecy has ceased, so that all prophecies today are false. His view toward prophecy must be “reject everything” instead of “test everything.” But again, if cessationism is false, then this person would be preaching rebellion against the biblical commands to desire and test spiritual manifestations.
Since the commands “desire spiritual gifts,” “do not treat prophecies with contempt,” and “test everything” are revealed by divine and infallible authority, the cessationist must present an infallible argument to render them inapplicable for today. If he cannot provide this but he still advocates cessationism in the face of these explicit biblical commands, then is it not obvious that he has condemned himself before God, even if this person is right that the gifts have ceased? No Christian should dare follow such a person or believe his doctrine. If a person preaches cessationism but cannot prove it – if he cannot provide an infallible argument for it (since the command to desire spiritual manifestations is clear and infallible), then this means that he consciously preaches rebellion against some of the Bible’s straightforward commands. Why then, should he not be removed from the ministry or even excommunicated from the church?
Since the arguments for cessationism are forced and feeble, and since the doctrine presents so great a danger, it is best to believe the Bible as it is written, and obey its commands as they are stated – that is, “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything.” This position is faithful to the direct statements of Scripture, but it requires courageous resistance to fallacious arguments, academic bullying, and church traditions.
Inherent in this biblical approach is protection against charismatic fanatics and false miracles. The Bible instructs us to “test everything,” and since it is sufficient, it is able to expose counterfeit miracles and false prophecies. The answer is not to assert that the gifts have ceased, but to follow the instructions that the Bible has already given on the subject. This position, that we should follow what Scripture says, would offer us perfect protection even if cessationism is correct. If prophecy has indeed ceased, then any prophecy today is false. Since the Bible is a sufficient revelation, the information in it will enable us to “test everything,” so that any alleged prophecy today will either be tested, and finding it false, it will be condemned, or if the content is such that it is untestable, it will be ignored.

Cessationism teaches us to abandon some divine commands without divine warrant, and thus preaches rebellion, but the position that we should obey both “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything” preaches obedience to the Lord, and it is at the same time able to protect itself against all deception. There is no danger in desiring spiritual gifts as long as we also test everything – if all spiritual manifestations are false, then we will expose all of them as false when we test them, and so we will regard all of them as false. A person who does this is safe from judgment.

 

[notuptome]

I also am 100% confident that the manifestation of the Spirit is for today. I think that what has turned most against tongues and tongues with interpretation is the way that these manifestations are being handled in the church today.

I beg your pardon. God has said tongues would end when the perfect was come. The perfect is the completed word of God the bible.

The way tongues are handled is simply evidence that they are not of God.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Seek a closer relationship with the Lord. Know the true joy He has for those who love Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KennethC]

I beg your pardon. God has said tongues would end when the perfect was come. The perfect is the completed word of God the bible.

The way tongues are handled is simply evidence that they are not of God.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Seek a closer relationship with the Lord. Know the true joy He has for those who love Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That is a false exegesis of that scripture for the whole context of 1 Corinthians 13 is about love, not the scriptures being put together in canon form for the bible we have now.

 

[notuptome]

Cessationism and Rebellion

Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-20)
Verses 19-22 discuss the apostolic policy toward prophecy. Paul writes, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” but he tells the Christians to “test everything.”
Cessationism is the false doctrine that the manifestations of miraculous endowments such as those listed in 1 Corinthians 12 have ceased since the days of the apostles and the completion of the Bible. Although there is no biblical evidence for this position, a main motive for this invention is to secure the sufficiency of Scripture and the finality (completion) of Scripture. However, it has been shown that the continuation of miraculous manifestations does not in fact contradict these two doctrines or put them at risk. Thus cessationism is both unbiblical and unnecessary.

More than that, cessationism is also evil and dangerous.
This is because if cessationism is false, then those who advocate this doctrine are preaching rebellion against the Lord.

The Bible commands Christians, “Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy” (1 Corinthians 14:1). If cessationism is correct but we do not know it, then we could still safely obey this instruction, although we will not receive what we desire. That is, if prophecy has ceased but I think that it continues, then I could still desire the gift of prophecy in accordance with this command, but I will not receive the gift of prophecy. No harm is done.
On the other hand, since the cessationist teaches that prophecy has ceased, then although the Bible says “desire spiritual gifts,” he will not desire spiritual gifts, since the spiritual gifts are no longer in operation, and what gifts people think they have are necessarily false. This also applies to prophecy in particular. So although Paul says, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” the cessationist must treat all prophecies with contempt, since he believes that prophecy has ceased, so that all prophecies today are false. His view toward prophecy must be “reject everything” instead of “test everything.” But again, if cessationism is false, then this person would be preaching rebellion against the biblical commands to desire and test spiritual manifestations.
Since the commands “desire spiritual gifts,” “do not treat prophecies with contempt,” and “test everything” are revealed by divine and infallible authority, the cessationist must present an infallible argument to render them inapplicable for today. If he cannot provide this but he still advocates cessationism in the face of these explicit biblical commands, then is it not obvious that he has condemned himself before God, even if this person is right that the gifts have ceased? No Christian should dare follow such a person or believe his doctrine. If a person preaches cessationism but cannot prove it – if he cannot provide an infallible argument for it (since the command to desire spiritual manifestations is clear and infallible), then this means that he consciously preaches rebellion against some of the Bible’s straightforward commands. Why then, should he not be removed from the ministry or even excommunicated from the church?
Since the arguments for cessationism are forced and feeble, and since the doctrine presents so great a danger, it is best to believe the Bible as it is written, and obey its commands as they are stated – that is, “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything.” This position is faithful to the direct statements of Scripture, but it requires courageous resistance to fallacious arguments, academic bullying, and church traditions.
Inherent in this biblical approach is protection against charismatic fanatics and false miracles. The Bible instructs us to “test everything,” and since it is sufficient, it is able to expose counterfeit miracles and false prophecies. The answer is not to assert that the gifts have ceased, but to follow the instructions that the Bible has already given on the subject. This position, that we should follow what Scripture says, would offer us perfect protection even if cessationism is correct. If prophecy has indeed ceased, then any prophecy today is false. Since the Bible is a sufficient revelation, the information in it will enable us to “test everything,” so that any alleged prophecy today will either be tested, and finding it false, it will be condemned, or if the content is such that it is untestable, it will be ignored.

Cessationism teaches us to abandon some divine commands without divine warrant, and thus preaches rebellion, but the position that we should obey both “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything” preaches obedience to the Lord, and it is at the same time able to protect itself against all deception. There is no danger in desiring spiritual gifts as long as we also test everything – if all spiritual manifestations are false, then we will expose all of them as false when we test them, and so we will regard all of them as false. A person who does this is safe from judgment.

The tongues you claim have robbed you of the real joy of knowing Christ. You spout falsehoods without any concern for biblical truth.

Tongues in the modern church are so addictive and destructive that they make cocaine look tame by comparison.

Scripture asserts that three sign gifts have ceased. Tongues were for Israel not for the Gentiles. Tongues were a sign of impending judgment not blessing.

The hypocrisy of the modern tongues movement is incredible. With all the boldness of Jezebel and all the dishonesty of Nimrod this spirit of Babylon continues to destroy the souls of men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

That is a false exegesis of that scripture for the whole context of 1 Corinthians 13 is about love, not the scriptures being put together in canon form for the bible we have now.

What does this statement even mean?

Kenneth, It seems you ignore context when trying to support something you believe, but then argue that those you disagree with are ignoring context. It's a double-standard.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Answer: Because "will cease" is in the future tense and we haven't got to that point yet! There is nothing in the Bible to say that "will cease" has changed to "has ceased" so the cessationists are making that up.

Do you know when the words "will cease" were written?

Also, see VW's recent post. He's addressed this before -- you simply "write it off" as fiction, with the basis that commentary and careful study are not valid resources.

God gave me a brain, with the ability to understand logic and reason; I think God intends us to use our brains.