To comfort those who speak in tongues

prodigal · Aug 21, 2015

Cessationism and Rebellion

Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-20)
Verses 19-22 discuss the apostolic policy toward prophecy. Paul writes, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” but he tells the Christians to “test everything.”
Cessationism is the false doctrine that the manifestations of miraculous endowments such as those listed in 1 Corinthians 12 have ceased since the days of the apostles and the completion of the Bible. Although there is no biblical evidence for this position, a main motive for this invention is to secure the sufficiency of Scripture and the finality (completion) of Scripture. However, it has been shown that the continuation of miraculous manifestations does not in fact contradict these two doctrines or put them at risk. Thus cessationism is both unbiblical and unnecessary.

More than that, cessationism is also evil and dangerous.
This is because if cessationism is false, then those who advocate this doctrine are preaching rebellion against the Lord.

The Bible commands Christians, “Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy” (1 Corinthians 14:1). If cessationism is correct but we do not know it, then we could still safely obey this instruction, although we will not receive what we desire. That is, if prophecy has ceased but I think that it continues, then I could still desire the gift of prophecy in accordance with this command, but I will not receive the gift of prophecy. No harm is done.
On the other hand, since the cessationist teaches that prophecy has ceased, then although the Bible says “desire spiritual gifts,” he will not desire spiritual gifts, since the spiritual gifts are no longer in operation, and what gifts people think they have are necessarily false. This also applies to prophecy in particular. So although Paul says, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” the cessationist must treat all prophecies with contempt, since he believes that prophecy has ceased, so that all prophecies today are false. His view toward prophecy must be “reject everything” instead of “test everything.” But again, if cessationism is false, then this person would be preaching rebellion against the biblical commands to desire and test spiritual manifestations.
Since the commands “desire spiritual gifts,” “do not treat prophecies with contempt,” and “test everything” are revealed by divine and infallible authority, the cessationist must present an infallible argument to render them inapplicable for today. If he cannot provide this but he still advocates cessationism in the face of these explicit biblical commands, then is it not obvious that he has condemned himself before God, even if this person is right that the gifts have ceased? No Christian should dare follow such a person or believe his doctrine. If a person preaches cessationism but cannot prove it – if he cannot provide an infallible argument for it (since the command to desire spiritual manifestations is clear and infallible), then this means that he consciously preaches rebellion against some of the Bible’s straightforward commands. Why then, should he not be removed from the ministry or even excommunicated from the church?
Since the arguments for cessationism are forced and feeble, and since the doctrine presents so great a danger, it is best to believe the Bible as it is written, and obey its commands as they are stated – that is, “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything.” This position is faithful to the direct statements of Scripture, but it requires courageous resistance to fallacious arguments, academic bullying, and church traditions.
Inherent in this biblical approach is protection against charismatic fanatics and false miracles. The Bible instructs us to “test everything,” and since it is sufficient, it is able to expose counterfeit miracles and false prophecies. The answer is not to assert that the gifts have ceased, but to follow the instructions that the Bible has already given on the subject. This position, that we should follow what Scripture says, would offer us perfect protection even if cessationism is correct. If prophecy has indeed ceased, then any prophecy today is false. Since the Bible is a sufficient revelation, the information in it will enable us to “test everything,” so that any alleged prophecy today will either be tested, and finding it false, it will be condemned, or if the content is such that it is untestable, it will be ignored.

Cessationism teaches us to abandon some divine commands without divine warrant, and thus preaches rebellion, but the position that we should obey both “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything” preaches obedience to the Lord, and it is at the same time able to protect itself against all deception. There is no danger in desiring spiritual gifts as long as we also test everything – if all spiritual manifestations are false, then we will expose all of them as false when we test them, and so we will regard all of them as false. A person who does this is safe from judgment.

copied from [h=1]Vincent Cheung Cessationism and Rebellion | Vincent Cheung[/h]
note from mod, if your copying someone elses conclusion or study, word for word, within a discussion or debate at cc, it would surely be only right to say so.

notuptome · Aug 21, 2015

convallaria said:

How do you draw such conclusions? I have never said anything against the Holy Spirit and have often defined the Holy Spirits ministry in believers.

You conclude that in the absence of tongues there is no Holy Spirit. This of course is an incorrect conclusion on your part. I cannot tell if it from a lack of discipleship or simply no knowledge of Christ. I hope it is the former and not the latter.

In any case there are no tongues in the modern Pentecostal and or charismatic church. That which is called tongues does not conform to the bible definition of tongues. There never was any angelic tongues and praying in tongues is another wishful fantasy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

PeacefulWarrior · Aug 21, 2015

Convallaria,

Know this:

While I am lead to believe that the gift of tongues (as Paul refers to) has ceased,
I also consider God to be omniscient and omnipotent;
at this time I cannot deny the possibility that God may have once again,
or might yet again use this Gift.

I pray you have a blessed weekend.

Kind Regards,
PW

wattie · Aug 21, 2015

All the guidelines about how a church should be ordered in manifesting spiritual gifts:

eg.

1Co_14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Which church have you seen follows this?

Or this?

(1Co 14:26) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

(1Co 14:27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

(1Co 14:28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

(1Co 14:29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

In regards to speaking in tongues in particular:

1Co_14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

I have seen a number of pentecostal/charistmatic churches.. and none of them abided by these kind of scriptures!

I do believe faith hope and love are the only remaining abiding gifts of the Holy Spirit.. but if a church is claiming to have the other spiritual gifts in operation

Don't mimic the Corinthian church!

They were infected by Paganism.. had problems with idolatry and were ABUSING the gifts!

Paul was ADAMANT with them!

And also..

If you put 'that which is perfect' in 1 Cor 13 as 'perfect love' you are faced with the fact.. that this love then would have had to be 'imperfect, immature' at the time of Paul's writing.

Does that harmonise with other writings from Paul about love?

Gr8grace · Aug 21, 2015

wattie said:

All the guidelines about how a church should be ordered in manifesting spiritual gifts:

eg.

1Co_14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Which church have you seen follows this?

Or this?

(1Co 14:26) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

(1Co 14:27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

(1Co 14:28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

(1Co 14:29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

In regards to speaking in tongues in particular:

1Co_14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

I have seen a number of pentecostal/charistmatic churches.. and none of them abided by these kind of scriptures!

I do believe faith hope and love are the only remaining abiding gifts of the Holy Spirit.. but if a church is claiming to have the other spiritual gifts in operation

Don't mimic the Corinthian church!

They were infected by Paganism.. had problems with idolatry and were ABUSING the gifts!

Paul was ADAMANT with them!

And also..

If you put 'that which is perfect' in 1 Cor 13 as 'perfect love' you are faced with the fact.. that this love then would have had to be 'imperfect, immature' at the time of Paul's writing.

Does that harmonise with other writings from Paul about love?

I know VW brought this up. But Paul was chewing butt in Corinthians. They were way out of line with their abuse of tongues and most all of the scriptures dealing with tongues was a CORRECTION of the abuse.

And this is how we see tongues of today. Operating EXACTLY like what Paul was correcting.

There is nothing new under the sun.

RickyZ · Aug 21, 2015

PeacefulWarrior said:

The gifts will cease when we stop needing them. Healings will cease when no one is getting sick anymore. Likewise, tongues will cease when Christ restores our singular spiritual language. It's not that we're going to stop doing them, it's that we're going to stop needing them.

RickyZ · Aug 21, 2015

notuptome said:

Wrong!!

Wrong, wrong wrong

so sadly wrong.

The perfect is the completed Word of God in creation

Man fell took creation with him.

The Messiah was promised to restore all creation.

Perfection will be the perfected fallen creation.

The gifts - ALL OF THEM - are meant to fill in for us until then.

Why can't you see that?

Probably because you won't LET yourself see that.

I've poked at you quite a bit and I guess I deserved to get growled at.

But Roger, you are

Wrong!!

Wrong, wrong wrong

so sadly, sadly wrong.

RickyZ · Aug 22, 2015

Conny, I can understand why Grace and the warrior think you tie tongues (and the gifts) into salvation. I know you don't but some of the things you write could be taken that way. We're talking some very fine lines here and while I know you discern them well, the less discerning don't. There is a difference in how things are looked at by those who read the word and those who experience it's fullness.

Grace it's true that you could never exhibit any of the gifts and still be saved. One is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at confession and that's all it takes. But God did tell many stories about people who hide their talents in the ground and their light under a bucket. Will someone be turned away for not acting in the gifts? No. But they will be held accountable for it once there. Conny gave the example of the virgins who were shut out of the wedding feast. These virgins are still saved, but they are paying a price for letting their lamps grow dim.

Conny also made the point that we are heading into a time of Spiritual warfare unseen since the days of Moses and the plagues. Those who are not prepared for it are going to find rough water and turn away. Who would not be prepared for it? Someone who thinks they're not going to see it, and those who think that kind of thing doesn't happen anymore. Warrior posited that even tho (he thinks) it's ceased today it might come back. Honestly warrior, it never left. satan did a great job of burying it, but it never left. And yes you will see it coming back. This thread is a good indicator that it already is.

Grace, warrior, when you talk about the circus acts you see in so many churches you are absolutely right. Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit. But when you're quietly praying, and you think there may be something else there but you don't know what, let the Holy Spirit speak it. He knows what's there that you don't. THAT'S when the gift comes into play. When God needs not an act, but a player.

And Roger...

Wrong!!

Wrong, wrong wrong

so very, very sadly wrong.

convallaria · Aug 22, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

That is twisting what I said into a false accusation somewhat outrageously. I can say it more generally and it is true, but I was replying to Roger. OK never mind, here it is:

If ANYONE thinks they can have a closer walk with the Lord without His Spirit, they are badly mistaken, and that is putting it kindly.

convallaria · Aug 22, 2015

prodigal said:

Sorry, my mistake! I thought I had done it.

ladylynn · Aug 22, 2015

This is an excellent commentary (but long) explanation of some of the issues brought up in this thread about speaking in tongues. Answers many questions I had about this matter.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 1:8

The fulfillment of the promise to receive the power of the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost. On that day, “they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts 2:4). We would call what they were doing speaking, or praying, in tongues. Speaking in tongues has become a divisive issue, and there are a lot of misconceptions. Specifically, some people argue that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues isn’t a gift that God gives believers today. They think it was something God only gave to the believers in the early Church. I disagree, and I think that putting Jesus’ last words into context will show that speaking in tongues is a gift for us today.

Following His death and resurrection, Jesus appeared to His disciples on several occasions. The first time He appeared to them, one of the disciples, Thomas, was not present. The other disciples told Thomas that Jesus had risen from the dead, but Thomas didn’t believe them. He said, “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe" (John 20:25). Eight days later, all of the disciples were gathered together and Thomas was with them. Jesus appeared in the midst of them and said to Thomas, “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing” ( John 20:27). Upon hearing this, Thomas answered Jesus and said, “My Lord and my God.” Jesus then commented that Thomas believed because he saw, but blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe ( John 20:28-29).

We know from Scripture that all it takes to be born again is to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9-10). Thomas confessed that Jesus is Lord, and Jesus commented that he believed it, so we can conclude that Thomas must have been born again. Yet Thomas was one of the eleven disciples that Jesus told to wait until the Holy Spirit was given, so being born again and receiving the Holy Spirit can’t be the same experience.

I have heard people try to get around these Scriptures by claiming that this was a special circumstance because the Holy Spirit hadn’t been given to anyone yet. Now, they contend, every person gets all of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit you can get when you are born again. But the book of Acts is full of examples showing that being born again and the baptism of the Holy Spirit remained separate experiences long after the day of Pentecost.
In one instance, Philip preached in the city of Samaria and the entire city believed in Jesus (Acts 8:4-8). During that time, Philip performed many miracles, and there was great revival in that city.
But then it says,

Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:14-17

This Scripture makes it clear that the Samaritans were born again. They were also baptized in water, which Scripture says you only do after being saved (Acts 8:36-37). Philip wouldn’t have baptized them unless they had already believed and were converted. Clearly, these people were born again. So, they were already Christians, but they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. The Apostles went down to their city and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit after their initial born again experience.

This same thing is recorded when the Apostle Paul found some people who were already disciples but were not yet filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1-10). When Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit since they believed they said, “We haven’t even heard there is a Holy Spirit.” There are people in denominations all across the world today who could say the same thing. Paul prayed for those men and they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from salvation. It is a second encounter with God when you receive power from on high. There are about a dozen instances recorded in the book of Acts where people received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and in every instance, they spoke in tongues. They didn’t speak in tongues some of the time or most of the time; they spoke in tongues every time.

Speaking in tongues is a valid gift for today, and it accompanies receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If you don’t speak in tongues, then either your beliefs are preventing you from doing so, or you haven’t received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I received the Holy Spirit about ten years after I was born again, but it took me another three years to speak in tongues. I wanted to speak in tongues and I prayed for the ability to do so, but I had been taught so much against speaking in tongues that I couldn’t do it. I had too much fear and unbelief built up in me. It took a while to get my mind renewed by the Word of God to get rid of the unbelief.

I’m mentioning my personal experience to show that it is possible to be born again and to have had an encounter with the Holy Spirit, yet not speak in tongues. If you have had an encounter with the Holy Spirit but you don’t speak in tongues, it’s because you’ve been taught something that is hindering you. The ability to pray in tongues is important in the life of believers, and it is a gift from God we need today.

Another common misconception is that all miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, ceased when the last apostle died. This argument claims that God only used miracles to confirm His Word until the Bible was complete, but now that we have the Bible, we don’t need miracles or baptism of the Holy Spirit anymore. This misunderstanding stems from a wrong interpretation of something the Apostle Paul wrote in his first letter to the Corinthians:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10

These verses state that there will come a time when prophecies will cease, tongues will cease, and knowledge will vanish away. Certainly, that time will certainly come—but when? Opponents of speaking in tongues believe it has already come. They cite the verse that says “when that which is perfect is come” and believe that the Bible is what is being spoken of. Therefore, they conclude, prophecies and tongues have passed away.

The Bible is perfect, but I don’t believe the Apostle Paul is talking about the Bible in this passage of Scripture. The same passage also says that when tongues and prophecies cease, knowledge will vanish away—but knowledge hasn’t vanished away. As a matter of fact, there is a prophecy in the Old Testament that says that knowledge will increase in the end times (Daniel 12:4). Today, you can look around and see that there is an exponential increase of knowledge in the world. The cumulative knowledge of mankind regarding the universe, biology, and technology is growing at a tremendous pace, so clearly knowledge hasn’t ceased yet.

Not only does this Scripture from 1 Corinthians say that knowledge will cease after that “which is perfect” has come, it also says that we will see God face to face:

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 13:11-12

Now we see dimly, as through a dark glass, but then (when that which is perfect has come) we will see clearly, face to face. Obviously, we have not come to see God face to face yet. I’m not saying that God couldn’t appear to someone, but this is a blanket statement that applies to everyone seeing Him face to face. It’s talking about the second return of the Lord, or our gathering together unto Him. When we see the Lord face to face is when “that which is perfect is come.”

The Scripture also says that when "that which is perfect" has come, we shall know even as we are known. God knows us perfectly, but we certainly don’t know everything perfectly right now.

The things that these verses state will happen at the same time that prophecies and tongues vanish haven’t happened yet. Knowledge hasn’t passed away, we haven’t seen God face to face, and we don’t know everything perfectly the way we will in eternity. You can’t just use these verses to say that speaking in tongues has passed away and ignore everything else that is supposed to happen at the same time. It is obvious that the “that which is perfect” which is being spoken of here has not yet come to pass.

I believe the “that which is perfect” being referred to is our glorified body. Praying in tongues helps us only as long as we are in this physical body and have the limitation of a mind that is not completely renewed. Your spirit is praying when you speak in tongues, and the Holy Spirit can pray through you (Romans 8:26). You are speaking mysteries in the spirit and edifying yourself (1 Corinthians 14:2, 4). Speaking in tongues bypasses the unbelief that is in your brain, and allows you to talk directly to God. It is powerful, but it’s only for this life.

When we receive our glorified bodies, we won’t have the infirmity of not knowing. At that time, we will know all things, even as we are known. We will know how to pray perfectly. We will see God face to face, and we won’t need to speak in tongues anymore. But until our glorified bodies come and our minds are completely renewed, we need the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We need the presence and the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, specifically the power of speaking in tongues.

Anyone who has been born again but doesn’t have the power of the Holy Spirit needs to receive it. You can’t live the life that God intends for you to live without the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues; this is the power to live the Christian life. There is a lot about praying in tongues that I can’t cover in this short synopsis, but I guarantee that the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues will produce a radical change in your relationship with God. The Word of God will come alive, and you will begin to see and understand things you never noticed before. You need this ability.

The good news is that God wants you to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and to speak in tongues even more than you want it. Jesus said,

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a f ish, will he for a f ish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Luke 11:11-13

Some people teach that you can’t have any sin in your life or God won’t fill you with the Holy Spirit. They think that God won’t fill a dirty vessel. I want you to know that God doesn’t have any other kind of vessel to fill! If we could be perfect without the Holy Spirit, we wouldn’t need Him. The very fact that you aren’t perfect makes you a candidate to be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is God’s will for every born-again believer to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to speak in tongues. He created you to fill with His Spirit, so there is no way He isn’t going to do it when you ask. The only requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit is to be born again. Jesus is the one who baptizes us in the Holy Spirit, so if you haven’t received the Giver, you can’t receive the Gift.

One of the things that kept me from speaking in tongues right away when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit was that I didn’t understand that I had to do the speaking. The Holy Spirit inspires you, but you have to do the talking:

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:4

Just as God doesn’t make people receive salvation, He isn’t going to make you speak in tongues. God doesn’t take over people’s bodies, so you're going to have to initiate the use of your voice to start and stop speaking. You can’t just open your mouth and wait for sound to come out.

As you begin to utter the words the Holy Spirit is inspiring you to speak, the words will come more and more easily. You won’t understand what you are saying because the natural mind can’t understand the things of the spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14), but you can pray for an interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:13). Receiving an interpretation doesn’t mean that you’ll get a word-forword translation of everything you have said in tongues. It could mean that you’ll pray in tongues today, and sometime in the near future God will give you a word of knowledge or wisdom. The only time that an interpretation is required immediately is when someone speaks in tongues during a church service. It isn’t necessary when you are praying in tongues privately.

Speaking in tongues builds up your faith and draws out the power and knowledge that is in your spirit. If you recognize that you need this gift and you have already been born again, all you have to do is ask God and He will give it to you:

Father, I thank You that I am the temple of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, I welcome You to fill me right now. Thank You for filling me with Your presence.

Sometimes people feel something when they are filled with the Holy Spirit, sometimes not. When I received the Holy Spirit I didn’t feel a thing, but I got Him. Regardless of whether you felt anything or not, begin to speak in tongues by faith. Open your mouth and utter the words that the Holy Spirit is inspiring within you.

Make praying in tongues a regular practice and you will begin to see the supernatural power of God manifesting in your life!

A. Wommack ministries

convallaria · Aug 22, 2015

RickyZ said:

Thanks RickyZ, very nicely put!

I agree, it is bound to look different from the position of knowing the fullness of God, I never thought of it quite like that before. In a way it drives me to continue to discuss this topic because things are so much better for Christians if they will only believe and then receive what God has for them, rather than going all around the houses trying to say that everything is all hunkydory without the things of the Spirit.

Yes and there is also this matter of urgency because of the times we are living in. Some scriptures are standing out to me more prominently like the wise and foolish virgins. To me the meaning is so clear, and surely no one would want to be told by Jesus "I don't know you" and to have the door closed in their face. I see that as a salvation issue because if Jesus says He doesn't know us, and closes the door on us, wow, how much worse could it be?

If there is a way of encouraging people to fill their own lamps I intend to find it. It is not about me because I am already the other side of the line like you are Ricky, and others on here who have been willing to share. It might be my particular burden but to me it is not showing love to just close my eyes and let people believe what they want to believe regardless of the danger they are in.

I see a lot of strange doctrines circulating in the course of my ministry, one of which is that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is automatically given at conversion with no accompanying evidence. That rings alarm bells in me because here is an awesome powerful PERSONAL experience with the Lord that people stop seeking and wanting on the grounds that they believe they already have it. Positive thinking can get you so far but faced with danger and difficulty, the memory of that Holy Spirit baptism has been sufficient to remind me that God is absolutely FOR me, whatever things may look like around me. That is priceless because none of us can actually predict what we will think if we were faced with, e.g., intolerable violence or cruelty: we would need all the spiritual help we could get.

Lastly, I see that there is an offense element whenever the power of God is being expressed. Some things in the Bible are given us to help us deal with that, so that we see what is truly going on, and continue nevertheless. As an example, I have preached in all honesty the Gospel I have received and know by testimony, and I can testify that all things God has promised us in His word are totally real and true, including those things of the Spirit of which we speak. So here is the verse that helps me in the sometimes frustrating reactions that I receive:

2 Cor 2 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in
and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

See in verse 16 there are two categories of those currently perishing: to the one we are a savour of death unto death....they don't like the way we smell spiritually....but to the others the savour of life unto life....they know there is something in what we say that has the power to save them.

I have enough experience of writing on a public forum to know that there are many who read and do not contribute. Among these, there may well be some who hear the word and know it is the means and the savour of life unto life...even if they don't actually say it on here. These silent searchers need to know that Jesus loves them so so much and is holding out His hands to them to receive His salvation in the simplicity in which it is offered. He holds nothing back to the believing heart.

Thank you Ricky for stirring me up, it was good to express myself and the reason why I do what I do.

Love, Conny

convallaria · Aug 22, 2015

notuptome said:

I never ever ever said that! I have consistently said that tongues is ONE evidence of the Holy Spirit and there are others. I have been repeatedly misquoted as saying what you said here, but perhaps you remember the misquote rather than the quote?

OP: "This scripture is referring to many of the good things gifted by the Lord to His children. But one thing we know for sure is that to stir up the gift of God in us includes the gift of tongues.

Post 318 "We are all sealed with the Holy Spirit at new birth, but then we are admonished to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and then to trust that Jesus will baptize us in the Holy Spirit, and it is in this latter experience where many receive the gift of tongues....but with or without tongues at this point there is much other evidence of the experience through ministry, giftings, callings, and all accompanied by a demonstration of the power of God."

...and many other places besides. Haven't got time to go through them all!

notuptome · Aug 22, 2015

RickyZ said:

Wow what a mixture of half truth and out right falsehoods. Only three sign gifts have ceased and any attempt to wrap that with all the gifts having ceased is simply dishonest. Shame on you.

Tongues are a sign of judgment from God toward Israel. Scripture teaches this starting in Genesis. Joel teaches that there is a former rain and a latter rain. Again prophesy toward Israel not the church. Tongues were and are a sign for Israel apostate Israel but Israel.

Everything you make up from your own theology is against God. Your desire to make tongues for today is against God. The lascivious way in which they are in operation in the modern church today is simply evidence of their lack of the presence of God.

For you to treat Gods word with such disrespect is indeed shameful.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Aug 22, 2015

RickyZ said:

Let's see do I give heed to your opinion or Gods word? God said three sign gifts given for Israel will end. They have ended you may indulge in all the fantasy speculations you wish but that is not going to change what God has decreed.

I see what God has written and the Holy Spirit opens the truth therein to me as the Holy Spirit will for you when you cease to tell God what you want and ask Him what He wants.

Cease from attempting to manipulate God and submit yourself to Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Aug 22, 2015

convallaria said:

Tongues are a sign for Israel not for the church. You see only what you want to see not what God has written. You place more confidence in what you feel that what God has written. As long as you trust yourself more that the Lord Who bought you there is no possibility for growth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

peacefulbeliever · Aug 22, 2015

notuptome said:

But isn't the epistle to the Corinthians addressed to the church? To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours: 1 Cor. 1:2 . . . so what is written within the Corinthian epistle would be for the church.

Didn't Jesus pour out gift of holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost - the birth of the church? Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

Aren't tongues a sign for unbelievers? (NOT for believers) 1 Cor. 14:22

What is this instruction given to Paul by revelation to the church; the body of Christ? . . . I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, UNLESS he interprets so that the church may be edified. 1 Cor. 14:5

Galatians2-20 · Aug 22, 2015

NOTE: I wrote this in response to comment made in another thread. However, I believe this post to be appropriate in this thread as well so I have decided to post it here:

Sir, please show biblical proof that any gifts have ceased. There simply is none.

Read Church history people. In it's infancy, Cessationism was created as part of a much larger belief system. When persecution of Christians began to ease in the later 3rd & early 4th centuries, the Eastern Orthodox Church believed that they had crossed over from the "Church Age" into the Millinnial dispensation spoken of in the later chapters of the book of Revelation. They then began to teach that the promised Millennial Kingdom, that Jesus promised would come after His return, had come and they were that Church. We now call this belief Amillennialism. They believed that, because "the perfect church" had come, the gifts of the Spirit were no longer needed. Emperor Constantine would embrace this view when he established Roman Catholicism a few decades later.

The Orthodox Church, as well as the Roman Catholics shortly after, would begin to reinterpret scripture to accomodate to this new belief that the promised Millennial Kingdom had come thus all of scripture had been fulfilled. Cessationism, Praying to Saints, exalting of the Virgin Mary, the office of a Holy Vicar (The Pope), etc. were all created during this period of reinterpretting scripture in order to accomodate to this new Millennial dispensation that they believe had come. Basically, both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church are guilty of making the same mistake that the Jews had made during the Babylonian Exile.

During the exile, Jews began to reinterpret scripture to accomodate their new living situation. The Pharisees, Saducees, Synogoges, and the Oral Law (now known as the Talmud) had all been created during this time. Jesus Himself staunchly opposed these new beliefs and it was that opposition which drove the Pharisees to have Jesus crucified.

If you do not subscribe to Amillennialism or Preterism, there is absolutely no reason to embrace Cessationism. The belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased because we now have "the perfect word of God" in the form of the complete cannon of scripture (ie. the Bible) is a fairly recent belief, a new spin on the the Amillennial belief that "the perfect" has already come. However, there is only one that is perfect. His name is Jesus and I think we all can agree that His second coming has yet to occur.

Gr8grace · Aug 22, 2015

Isa 28~~ 11Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue, 12He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen. 13So the word of the LORD to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

Judah Is Warned

14Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,

1Cor 14~~ 21In the Law it is written, “BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TOME,” says the Lord. 22So then tongues are for a sign(For "this people"/Israel), not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

Galatians2-20 · Aug 22, 2015

notuptome said:

Then why were gifts given to the gentiles to be used among gentiles? Biblically, the purpose of the gift of tongues was to speak to people in a multitude of languages. Your line of thinking makes very little sense.

To comfort those who speak in tongues

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