To comfort those who speak in tongues
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G
Popeye, my intial response was to a post made my Peaceful Warrior where he states that tongues were given to Israel only. My response was that originally, the gift of tongues was given to Jew & gentile to speak to the multitudes, thus his statement did not make sense.
Notuptome, apparently misunderstood my statement and wrongly assumed that I was attempting to support the view that tongues are still for today. However, my comment, when read in it's intended context, was never intended to support or deny such a claim.
Notuptome, apparently misunderstood my statement and wrongly assumed that I was attempting to support the view that tongues are still for today. However, my comment, when read in it's intended context, was never intended to support or deny such a claim.
5Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8“And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9“Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in ourown tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.” 12And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others were mocking and saying, “They are full of sweet wine.”
The Jews were gathered for the festival of Pentecost and came from vast distances. They(Jews) all heard them in the dialect from their own region.
Isa 28:11~~New American Standard Bible
Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
no capital letters in the Greek; that's later addition through translation. you can't rely on that. even still, in other translations, it is capitalized.
why so focused on the pronoun when there's a very important NOUN in the sentence?
the NOUN that gives, the NOUN that works, the NOUN that wills -- so why say the pronoun, the recipient, determines? instead of the NOUN - the Giver?
why so focused on the pronoun when there's a very important NOUN in the sentence?
the NOUN that gives, the NOUN that works, the NOUN that wills -- so why say the pronoun, the recipient, determines? instead of the NOUN - the Giver?
I know that there are no caps in the Greek - I only pointed out that you had capitalized it . . .
Look . . . I just know that God via the Spirit does not possess nor MAKE anyone do anything that is against their will. I have said that God has given us the gift of holy Spirit . . . within that gift are nine manifestations given to "every man" (believer) for profit. . . so God has already determined that the believer should manifest that Spirit within him/her . . the Spirit energizes our Spirit . . . but it is up to us to walk out and determine whether we will receive . . . . or open our mouth and speak.
Does God make you obey Him? or Is that your choice?
Look . . . I just know that God via the Spirit does not possess nor MAKE anyone do anything that is against their will. I have said that God has given us the gift of holy Spirit . . . within that gift are nine manifestations given to "every man" (believer) for profit. . . so God has already determined that the believer should manifest that Spirit within him/her . . the Spirit energizes our Spirit . . . but it is up to us to walk out and determine whether we will receive . . . . or open our mouth and speak.
Does God make you obey Him? or Is that your choice?
notice in verse 5 who it is that prepares the table before us?
does anyone get the sense that He hands us a menu, and then asks us what gifts and manifestations we'd like to have with our supper?
honestly?
this idea is a stumbling block that leads into this pit of will-worship, saying "i will speak in tongues" or "i will prophesy" etc. this is centrally wrong here, the preconception that tongues or any other manifestation of God's own Spirit can be "stirred up" by our own human will.
does anyone get the sense that He hands us a menu, and then asks us what gifts and manifestations we'd like to have with our supper?
honestly?
this idea is a stumbling block that leads into this pit of will-worship, saying "i will speak in tongues" or "i will prophesy" etc. this is centrally wrong here, the preconception that tongues or any other manifestation of God's own Spirit can be "stirred up" by our own human will.
yet not my will, but yours be done.
It is a good insight you had though, that some might think they just need to stir things up to receive it: not a good way to go
that was the NASB that capitalized the word, not me in particular, and it's not the only translation to do so
i don't think this is about "free will" -- it's about whether it's God who wills and works in us according to His pleasure & purpose, or us who "use" God to do our own will & purpose.
if it is God that wills and works, and God that gives, then it is God who determines how each should be used of Him.
if it is us who will, and us who determine what we will receive of God, then it is our purpose, not His, and God who is used of us, not we of Him.
but you want to make it about free will - well OK, it's not unrelated.
let me ask you -- does God have free will?
people like to talk about their own "free will" - what about the Almighty's "free will" ?
if we have will, does our will confound His?
if God does not will that you should prophesy or speak in tongues throw mountains into the sea, can you by force of your will determine to do these things?
do you make God give you a command, that you should obey it? or does the command come first, and we then choose to obey?
so if one has knowledge by the Spirit, or power by the Spirit, is it because that human purposed and determined that he should receive it, or because God purposed that it should be given to him?
still, all this talk of volition is tangential -- it is God that purposes, God that works in us, God who gives and provides, and man that receives, obeys, responds and rejoices. 1 Cor. 12:11 doesn't say mankind picks & chooses which manifestations of the Spirit he likes best and then places his orders to God through a spirit-catalog. it says the Spirit gives as the Spirit determines - according to God's will, not man's.
we may determine whether we resist or obey His will for us, but we do not determine His will for us just like we don't distribute His gifts to ourselves. that is upside-down thinking.
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B
What I see in the OP scripture I posted is that the gift was already given by the Lord to Timothy with the laying on of the apostle's hands, so when he said to stir it up, it meant don't leave it on the back burner to go cold....remember what you were gifted with and use it.
It is a good insight you had though, that some might think they just need to stir things up to receive it: not a good way to go
It is a good insight you had though, that some might think they just need to stir things up to receive it: not a good way to go
V
Have to thank Ember for showing me you replied to this by lying. Maybe she shouldn't have put the link into her post. But then again, I largely ignore both of you, so whatever.
But you did lie. I quoted you in the post you replied to here. You did not quote it accurately, which amounts to a lie. It said:
... referring to you posting of 1 Corinthians 2:10, as though the passage deals with tongues. That also is a lie by omission, because you didn't include the whole first eight verses, which clearly show Paul's concern at the outset of his letter is the preference of the Corinthian believers for man's wisdom, rather than God's. That theme goes on for three full chapters, from one through three.
Ironically, what you and these other "tongues-speakers" don't get is that after that rebuke, Paul condemned no less than ten specific practices of that church:
The blockbuster is this: What Paul condemns in the Corinthian church is the practice that you "tongues-speakers" claim is endorsed in the letter!
You speak without interpreters. You chitter and jabber nonsense and claim you "pray in the Spirit." You endorse the use of a gift that was given for the edification of the ancient Jews who are long dead and gone. You refuse to be accountable to Paul's warning because you willfully pretend he isn't talking to you. You've been lied to by charlatans and led as sheep to slaughter as they have caused you to embrace a man-made doctrine without thought as to whether or not it is actually of Christ as you so wrongly claim.
Having said all that, I will more than willing hear the Holy Spirit tell me I am wrong. I will admit it openly and publcly on this forum, if God shows me that I am preaching against His truth. I also warn you, if you take offense at what I'm about to pray, then you must give serious consideration to what is really influencing you. But it is heartfelt and necessary, as this forum -- this electronic form of the body of Christ -- is being torn apart at the seams by this argument.
Lord God, I pray that whoever in this disagreement within the body of Christ is mistaken, that you would have mercy on whomever of us, by our beliefs, abuse Your Holy Spirit. We know not what we do. Reveal to us Your truth, enlightenus by Your power, and bring us into Your Light. Amen.
And with that, I am forever done with these discussions. Even if I am the one who is wrong, the divisiveness has no place here. May we all be blessed by His power, wisdom, and Holy Spirit.
But you did lie. I quoted you in the post you replied to here. You did not quote it accurately, which amounts to a lie. It said:
... referring to you posting of 1 Corinthians 2:10, as though the passage deals with tongues. That also is a lie by omission, because you didn't include the whole first eight verses, which clearly show Paul's concern at the outset of his letter is the preference of the Corinthian believers for man's wisdom, rather than God's. That theme goes on for three full chapters, from one through three.
Ironically, what you and these other "tongues-speakers" don't get is that after that rebuke, Paul condemned no less than ten specific practices of that church:
- their acceptance of man's teaching over God's
- immorality in the body left unchallenged
- legal rather than spiritual remedies sought in disputes between believers
- illicit sexual relations between unmarried church members
- improper endorsement of divorce
- sin done under the mantle of "liberty"
- spiritual idolatry, proper order of service
- the authority of women in church
- improperly taking the Lord's Supper, and the abuse of the spiritual gifts which most assuredly includes tongues but also healings as well as prophetic utterances and "knowledge" as relates to claimed "new revelation."
The blockbuster is this: What Paul condemns in the Corinthian church is the practice that you "tongues-speakers" claim is endorsed in the letter!
You speak without interpreters. You chitter and jabber nonsense and claim you "pray in the Spirit." You endorse the use of a gift that was given for the edification of the ancient Jews who are long dead and gone. You refuse to be accountable to Paul's warning because you willfully pretend he isn't talking to you. You've been lied to by charlatans and led as sheep to slaughter as they have caused you to embrace a man-made doctrine without thought as to whether or not it is actually of Christ as you so wrongly claim.
Having said all that, I will more than willing hear the Holy Spirit tell me I am wrong. I will admit it openly and publcly on this forum, if God shows me that I am preaching against His truth. I also warn you, if you take offense at what I'm about to pray, then you must give serious consideration to what is really influencing you. But it is heartfelt and necessary, as this forum -- this electronic form of the body of Christ -- is being torn apart at the seams by this argument.
Lord God, I pray that whoever in this disagreement within the body of Christ is mistaken, that you would have mercy on whomever of us, by our beliefs, abuse Your Holy Spirit. We know not what we do. Reveal to us Your truth, enlightenus by Your power, and bring us into Your Light. Amen.
And with that, I am forever done with these discussions. Even if I am the one who is wrong, the divisiveness has no place here. May we all be blessed by His power, wisdom, and Holy Spirit.
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E
VW...I don't know why you seem to believe that you are doing good to others with your demeaning and untrue posts.
It seems you deliberately go out of your way to grind others with the way you twist what they say and calling someone who is a beliver a liar, because they did not post every scripture you believe they should have, is both childish and very revealing of your apparent desire to besmirch another person's name.
You do not seem able to keep on track. Rather then discuss the subject, you almost constantly seem to prefer to discuss the person.
This, is a rather amateurish psychological way of dealing with your own apparent hatred of the op...as you profess to be a professional, itmight behoove you to
1. Act like the professional you state you are
2. Act like a Christian and stop calling others liars and other such when the truth of the matter is that you simply do not believe what the Bible plainly states and go to great lengths to make it seem you are an authority
Really, if anyone is causing dissention here or causing unbelievers to wish to know nothing of Christ, it would be someone with your attitude and nasty posts to others
You are bullying and it is not really your best side
It seems you deliberately go out of your way to grind others with the way you twist what they say and calling someone who is a beliver a liar, because they did not post every scripture you believe they should have, is both childish and very revealing of your apparent desire to besmirch another person's name.
You do not seem able to keep on track. Rather then discuss the subject, you almost constantly seem to prefer to discuss the person.
This, is a rather amateurish psychological way of dealing with your own apparent hatred of the op...as you profess to be a professional, itmight behoove you to
1. Act like the professional you state you are
2. Act like a Christian and stop calling others liars and other such when the truth of the matter is that you simply do not believe what the Bible plainly states and go to great lengths to make it seem you are an authority
Really, if anyone is causing dissention here or causing unbelievers to wish to know nothing of Christ, it would be someone with your attitude and nasty posts to others
You are bullying and it is not really your best side
E
God has already done so. You simply refuse to believe it.
Actually, we do know what we do. Jesus says we are His FRIENDS and we are not left in the dark if we do what He commands John 15:14
We are commanded to esteem others higher than ourselves, and to GENTLY talk to those we believe are in sin or in error
You don't do that VG...you call people liars and twist what is actually said
Who do you think you are praying to here? God sees everyone and knows our hearts...you don't sound to me like you actually have any concern for convallaria or others of us who are not in the camp in which you have set up your tent
Prayers can be manipulative also, and within the context of your post, IMO it may be what is possibly being done
Actually, we do know what we do. Jesus says we are His FRIENDS and we are not left in the dark if we do what He commands John 15:14
We are commanded to esteem others higher than ourselves, and to GENTLY talk to those we believe are in sin or in error
You don't do that VG...you call people liars and twist what is actually said
Who do you think you are praying to here? God sees everyone and knows our hearts...you don't sound to me like you actually have any concern for convallaria or others of us who are not in the camp in which you have set up your tent
Prayers can be manipulative also, and within the context of your post, IMO it may be what is possibly being done
that was the NASB that capitalized the word, not me in particular, and it's not the only translation to do so
i don't think this is about "free will" -- it's about whether it's God who wills and works in us according to His pleasure & purpose, or us who "use" God to do our own will & purpose.
if it is God that wills and works, and God that gives, then it is God who determines how each should be used of Him.
if it is us who will, and us who determine what we will receive of God, then it is our purpose, not His, and God who is used of us, not we of Him.
All I know is the verse says "as he will" - God determines who gives the gift, and therefore determines who utilizes the manifestation of the Spirit . . I am not saying that I determine IF I get the gift of holy Spirit - God has already determined that each and every believer receives the gift of holy Spirit upon faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38) and if every believer receives the gift of holy Spirit then they are also already determined to operate the manifestation of the Spirit as God energizes said gift.
It is God's will for us to manifest the Spirit within us . . . to profit ourselves and to profit the church by edification. It is God who will give the prophesy to my Spirit - but I must utilize the technique of speaking before it can be uttered. It is God who will give the tongues to my Spirit - but I must utilize the technique of speaking before it can be uttered. It is God that would remove the mountain into the sea should I ask him to . . . So can I, by force, determine to do these things? I can determine to open my mouth to speak with what the Spirit gives to my Spirit to speak either prophesy or tongues . . . the mountain thingy - all I can do is ask.
I would say that the command comes first - then we choose to obey. I would that ye all spake in tongues . . . there is the command . . . NOW - do I just open my mouth?
God has already given us this gift of holy Spirit and I already said that God has purposed or determined that we utilize the manifestation of the Spirit - purpose, determine - no matter which word we use
OH . . . I never meant that we pick and choose the manifestation of the Spirit we like best and place an order . . . Again - God determines and has already determined that we manifest the Spirit and there are nine ways in which to manifest the Spirit . . . all these nine ways are energized by God . . . Does God want to give us word of wisdom and word of knowledge? Okay . . let's say I have a situation in which I need God to give me wisdom and knowledge in applying that wisdom - if I don't "will" to listen then it does me no good. Does God want us to speak in tongues and interpret? I believe so . . . but if I don't "will" to open my mouth and speak then it does me no good. I'm not shopping around for a manifestation . . . !!
His will for us is to walk in power in this wicked and perverse world . . . I believe that walking by the Spirit is walking in everything that God has given us . . . He has said that the manifestation of the Spirit is for profit . . . it profits us as individual believers and profits the church, the body of Christ unto edification - so if I do not "will" to manifest the Spirit, what God has purposed for me and energized in me, in my life - then I am not obeying. I do not recognize the manifestations as gifts but coming from the one gift - holy Spirit. . . that is what God calls them (1 Cor. 12:7)
E
No one has said any such thing in this thread or in ANY OTHER THREAD on tongues I have participated in or read since I joined this site.
Many things are corrected in the New Testament letters...for that is basically much of what the NT consists of
In the issue of tongues and the Corinthian church, we have a very good example of what not to do, so thank God for that.
However, Paul never said to stop the gift of tongues....and neither should we as the Bible plainly states the opposite with:
39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
How simple is that then? DON'T FORBID IT...JUST DO IT THE RIGHT WAY!
Oh and please read that whole chapter...I could copy/paste...but get your Bible out, pray before you read and ask God to reveal Himself to you in the words of Paul to the Corinthians
Don't gloss over what is in the Bible because some people appear to get angry and wish to intimidate others who do not share that aversion to spiritual gifts!
God is faithful and just...He is not going to give you a stone if you ask Him for bread....
Many things are corrected in the New Testament letters...for that is basically much of what the NT consists of
In the issue of tongues and the Corinthian church, we have a very good example of what not to do, so thank God for that.
However, Paul never said to stop the gift of tongues....and neither should we as the Bible plainly states the opposite with:
39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
How simple is that then? DON'T FORBID IT...JUST DO IT THE RIGHT WAY!
Oh and please read that whole chapter...I could copy/paste...but get your Bible out, pray before you read and ask God to reveal Himself to you in the words of Paul to the Corinthians
Don't gloss over what is in the Bible because some people appear to get angry and wish to intimidate others who do not share that aversion to spiritual gifts!
God is faithful and just...He is not going to give you a stone if you ask Him for bread....
E
This is what I do. However, I sing directly in English...bypassing tongues...by the Power of the Spirit of God.
When people first hear it, they often do not believe it is not a song that has already been written. I don't know how it happens, it just does!
Apart from that, I write my own songs and sing...I have not done so in quite a while because of a family situation that was beyond my control wherein I was falsely accused of doing some pretty awful things. It has been proven I did not do the things someone said I did, but the harm was done and my name became mud to quite a few people.
Don't listen to gossip. Pray...I can only put my life in God's hands.
Last night, for the first time in a long time, I felt a song...a new song...being 'born' in me and I have no voice but the one God gives to me...I'm not talking about how I 'sound' because I don't sing off - key...I'm talking about that which is given to us by the Spirit...the Holy Spirit...who gives life even to the dead dry bones and causes them to rise up again.
Ah well....I'm getting carried away now...but praise to God our Father and much glory to Jesus our Savior!
When people first hear it, they often do not believe it is not a song that has already been written. I don't know how it happens, it just does!
Apart from that, I write my own songs and sing...I have not done so in quite a while because of a family situation that was beyond my control wherein I was falsely accused of doing some pretty awful things. It has been proven I did not do the things someone said I did, but the harm was done and my name became mud to quite a few people.
Don't listen to gossip. Pray...I can only put my life in God's hands.
Last night, for the first time in a long time, I felt a song...a new song...being 'born' in me and I have no voice but the one God gives to me...I'm not talking about how I 'sound' because I don't sing off - key...I'm talking about that which is given to us by the Spirit...the Holy Spirit...who gives life even to the dead dry bones and causes them to rise up again.
Ah well....I'm getting carried away now...but praise to God our Father and much glory to Jesus our Savior!
maybe i'm just misunderstanding what you put, i hope - because i thought you were saying that it's us who determine how the gifts are distributed -- so that i could say "o i want to be one who speaks in tongues" or "i want to have the gift of healing" and then God, like a robot without free will, has to manifest His spirit in us according to how we determine it.
no argument about whether it's in us to harden or soften ourselves to His will!
but that it's the Lord who determines 'this one will be my prophet' or 'this one will show signs for me' or 'this one will be given wisdom' -- God who has the free will to say "yes" or to say "no, I have a better thing for you" when we ask of Him.
so in this verse in Corinthians, i see the Spirit being the active distributor & determiner of how to distribute, and us the recipients, with our agency being about how to react to the gift, not how He should manifest.
what i mean is, i can't just wake up and say "i feel like working miracles today! OK Spirit, give me power."
but i might wake up one day and the Spirit (of God's volition, not mine) say "today I will give you power, and you will work miracles"
i could reject that or embrace & obey it in my heart - but it's not me that determines what God has purposed for me.
no argument about whether it's in us to harden or soften ourselves to His will!
but that it's the Lord who determines 'this one will be my prophet' or 'this one will show signs for me' or 'this one will be given wisdom' -- God who has the free will to say "yes" or to say "no, I have a better thing for you" when we ask of Him.
so in this verse in Corinthians, i see the Spirit being the active distributor & determiner of how to distribute, and us the recipients, with our agency being about how to react to the gift, not how He should manifest.
what i mean is, i can't just wake up and say "i feel like working miracles today! OK Spirit, give me power."
but i might wake up one day and the Spirit (of God's volition, not mine) say "today I will give you power, and you will work miracles"
i could reject that or embrace & obey it in my heart - but it's not me that determines what God has purposed for me.