Originally Posted by
shotgunner
Ok, I don't have any problem with any of that. The one thing though that we disagree on is that
a person can be saved and have no wish to be free from sin. A person might say the words of some prayer but when salvation comes Grace frees them from the bondage of sin and changes their hearts. Without a heart change there is no salvation.
That's what Paul is saying here.
Romans 5:20-6:2King James Version (KJV)[SUP]
20 [/SUP]Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
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21 [/SUP]That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
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2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
The word reigned, and reign in verse 21 is speaking of a ruler, a king with complete control. Before we were saved sin was the dominate force in our life. We were completely under sin's rule. When one is saved however Grace breaks the power of sin and is replaced as ruler.
In 6:2 Paul isn't saying that we shouldn't sin because grace rules. He is saying perish the thought that we sin and cause grace to abound even more. He is saying it's not even a sensible question because sin no longer rules.
The born again man does not wish to continue in sin and it is an impossibility for him to continue to sustain the same relationship that he had to sin before being born again. It's not even a question, it's impossible if salvation has occurred. That however is not to say that he won't occasionally sin. He simply doesn't plan and wish for a continued life of sin. His getting free will be a process of sanctification by renewing his mind and denying his flesh. Even through this sanctification process he is completely saved and justified by Christ. He was saved by grace through faith the first moment he cried out to Jesus.
Where do you get that understanding that I enlarged and underlined, it is nowhere mentioned in the bible that a person can be saved and have no intention of turning from sin.
It says if you continue to serve sin that is your master that will lead to eternal death, only walking in the Spirit will that righteousness lead to eternal life. Apostle Paul clearly shows this over and over again that you can not continue in a sinful lifestyle and be saved through the Lord unto eternal life both.
I'm not saying that a person can be saved and not want to turn from sin, you are! I say a person cannot be saved and not want to turn from sin. Here are your words
That is why you ask them if they want to stop doing what they are doing, and also show them in God's word and by love how they are walking is improper. Then we are to try and exhort them as in help them along in turning from those ways.
If they refuse to listen and refuse the help because they do not want to give up those ways then we know it is willful/deliberate sin they are engaged in and would rather continue to do it then serve the Lord.
Nobody at least not me is saying a person is to be cast away immediately if we see them walking improperly in a sinful way,
You are the one saying by your definition of willful sin that a saved person can commit willful sin and be cast out of salvation.
Are you not saying that as long as they want to give up sin, they are saved, even if they are struggling with sin?
I am telling you, that is the condition of every born again person, to want to give up sin, so by your definition none of them can commit willful sin.