Three major things the legalistic Pharisees didn't recognize.
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Jesus and unity
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. John 17:20-23
The oneness from this passage is a level of communion I have not seen. Jesus is praying to the Father that this might happen. He is expressing his desire, not that it will actually be fulfilled or is possible.
He prays this when the deciples did not understand why he had to die, when they were about to flee for their lives etc. It has long been a mystery quite how this can be achieved, because we obviously are very far from this place.
It is obviously more than just beliefs, it is the way of an open relationship. But few great men of God have ever claimed them came close to fulfilling this. So maybe this will always stay a mystery.
It maybe just our sharing of love for Jesus and love for one another, we share as Jesus hoped, because we devalue this so easily, like a child devalues the love their parents have for them, especially in the teenage years.
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. John 17:20-23
The oneness from this passage is a level of communion I have not seen. Jesus is praying to the Father that this might happen. He is expressing his desire, not that it will actually be fulfilled or is possible.
He prays this when the deciples did not understand why he had to die, when they were about to flee for their lives etc. It has long been a mystery quite how this can be achieved, because we obviously are very far from this place.
It is obviously more than just beliefs, it is the way of an open relationship. But few great men of God have ever claimed them came close to fulfilling this. So maybe this will always stay a mystery.
It maybe just our sharing of love for Jesus and love for one another, we share as Jesus hoped, because we devalue this so easily, like a child devalues the love their parents have for them, especially in the teenage years.
This leads right into what I as going to write. Thanks for your exposed heart of sincerity. It's uplifting and real.
Then there is the opposing side of "faith," individuals being “froward,”as the Bible puts it.
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. *Deuteronomy 32:20 The law of God clearly defines the opposition between faith and frowardness. These are 2 things that are incompatible with each other. Never the twain shall meet.
Faithfulness (בָּנִים לֹא-אֵמֻן בָּם) is adhering to our Father's instructions.
Faithlessness is a perversity or fraud: a froward characteristic that is perverse.
Froward (תַהְפֻּכוֹת) is to “flip” the truth of God.
The Pharisees were fraudulent in their actions of self righteousness not God's righteousness. They completely missed it because they only recognized the law as an entity of independent existence (a thing), not a response to God's reliability.
The definition of faith is substance in Hebrews chapter 11. Believing is what puts faith into action. “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” “And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.” Matthew 21:22 and Luke 17:19
Believing and faith must always work together in us for the proper outcome, just like the Word and the Spirit of God must work in coordination with one another in our lives in order to have the proper outcome according to God's will in Christ Jesus. One without the other is a go nowhere situation. A good example would be holding a box of baking soda in one hand, and vinegar in the other. You can stand there all day without anything happening. If you want something to happen you have to make a move, working with both entities by combining them together and then the substances together react with each other. By the way, this reaction removes most unwanted sediment from the bathtub drain on a regular basis.
"Belief without works (action), is dead." That makes perfect sense. James 2:17-20
So the moving of faith is believing in action, making faith and the works of God in us the same thing.
In English translations of the New Testament, the word "believe"corresponds to the Greek verb πιστεύω (pisteuo), meaning "to trust, to have confidence, faithfulness, to be reliable, to assure".
Just because you can take your car to the store for life-giving stuff, doesn't mean you get that life-giving stuff by only driving your own car there. You have to take action to get the stuff you went for. Driving the car with no further purpose in mind cannot be compared with faith, it can only be compared with “self works” that is dead. Only the action of obtaining the product can be compared with faith. Hypocrites, such as the Pharisees that Jesus confronted, did all kinds of driving, but omitted faith from their venue, and respected the proper outcome by not having belief mingled with faith. They failed to understand the meaning of *Deuteronomy 32:20
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23
Then there is the opposing side of "faith," individuals being “froward,”as the Bible puts it.
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. *Deuteronomy 32:20 The law of God clearly defines the opposition between faith and frowardness. These are 2 things that are incompatible with each other. Never the twain shall meet.
Faithfulness (בָּנִים לֹא-אֵמֻן בָּם) is adhering to our Father's instructions.
Faithlessness is a perversity or fraud: a froward characteristic that is perverse.
Froward (תַהְפֻּכוֹת) is to “flip” the truth of God.
The Pharisees were fraudulent in their actions of self righteousness not God's righteousness. They completely missed it because they only recognized the law as an entity of independent existence (a thing), not a response to God's reliability.
The definition of faith is substance in Hebrews chapter 11. Believing is what puts faith into action. “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” “And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.” Matthew 21:22 and Luke 17:19
Believing and faith must always work together in us for the proper outcome, just like the Word and the Spirit of God must work in coordination with one another in our lives in order to have the proper outcome according to God's will in Christ Jesus. One without the other is a go nowhere situation. A good example would be holding a box of baking soda in one hand, and vinegar in the other. You can stand there all day without anything happening. If you want something to happen you have to make a move, working with both entities by combining them together and then the substances together react with each other. By the way, this reaction removes most unwanted sediment from the bathtub drain on a regular basis.
"Belief without works (action), is dead." That makes perfect sense. James 2:17-20
So the moving of faith is believing in action, making faith and the works of God in us the same thing.
In English translations of the New Testament, the word "believe"corresponds to the Greek verb πιστεύω (pisteuo), meaning "to trust, to have confidence, faithfulness, to be reliable, to assure".
Just because you can take your car to the store for life-giving stuff, doesn't mean you get that life-giving stuff by only driving your own car there. You have to take action to get the stuff you went for. Driving the car with no further purpose in mind cannot be compared with faith, it can only be compared with “self works” that is dead. Only the action of obtaining the product can be compared with faith. Hypocrites, such as the Pharisees that Jesus confronted, did all kinds of driving, but omitted faith from their venue, and respected the proper outcome by not having belief mingled with faith. They failed to understand the meaning of *Deuteronomy 32:20
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23
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My grace and my love are so greaa, I have no need to obey. I ask, is that what people are trying to palm off on the free and easies? Sorry, the reward I have always learned of is the result of good works produced by faith in Jesus Christ. Good works begin with hearing and obeying our God, this is my understanding of the teachings of Jesus, Paul and the Twelve, not to mention the Writings, the Prophets and the Books of Moses.
Perhaps those loving and full-of-grace individuals know someone I do not know? I am hapapy listening to Jesus, and doing my best to obey Him because of His Love............Pharisees! Have anything to say?
Perhaps those loving and full-of-grace individuals know someone I do not know? I am hapapy listening to Jesus, and doing my best to obey Him because of His Love............Pharisees! Have anything to say?
I had a thought. When you have a child and feed it do you say it is growing because the growth chart says it should and that is good. No matter how much you read or study the growth chart it does not make your child grow any more or less.
It is though a good measure of progress or problems.
You do though in our spiritual lives have to provide food, the word of God, and practise, good works and obedience to the commands. These things bring the growth. I always found it strange that intellectually I could know of my sin, feel bad about it, but until I repented and did something about it, spiritually things did not resolve. In forgiving others, I began to understand forgiveness, and it became part of my life. The law when read is like an intellectual book, but when the commands of grace and love are put in action they give growth to our spirits in the Kingdom. But this is not justification of entry in to the kingdom it is how you eat and live within it.
E
sarcastic much? must be one of the fruits of the spirit I missed
listen: NO ONE HERE HAS EVER SAID THAT WE BELIEVE IN CHEAP GRACE
no one
you folks really have no arguement without distorting and twisting both scripture and the posts made by those who refute what you twist
this is a public forum...my best advice is to go get a wordpress account and then you and just-me et all can have all the privacy you wish
but then how would you beat back the devils hordes if you had no need to do so?
K
I said I was sorry if that is not what you were implying, but I was trying to get into the bottom of what you were saying or trying to allude to.
The Holy Spirit is what makes us one in the body of Christ and my point is because of the Holy Spirit abiding in all true believers there can be no variance of doctrine because the Holy Spirit can not teach people different contradicting things.
Which is what brings us back to justice, mercy, and faith as these are never changing components in the Word of God, as He never changes therefore all scripture must be in agreement with one another. If it becomes to complicated that we then have to start getting technical to explain away what is clearly stated in a scripture because it seems to contradict others then that becomes our misunderstanding and we would be going the wrong route.
Satirical, yes, darcasm no. I do not find sarcasm as having a place in the forum. The opening sentence is clarified by the immediately following.........as for the closing line, it is directed to hypocrites only. Thisis not sarcasm, it is the reality of life in the spirit........Even Jesus pointed out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. I see nothing amiss in following His Example.
E
hey I could even set it up for them
I can build a pretty nice blog on a good frame, make sure they have proper security, add a few plugins, a photo gallery and whatever else their hearts desired
and all for only 2500.00
ps...maintenance and updates are 150.00 a month
it's not adviseable to just create a blog what with all the attacks from eastern block countries
I can build a pretty nice blog on a good frame, make sure they have proper security, add a few plugins, a photo gallery and whatever else their hearts desired
and all for only 2500.00
ps...maintenance and updates are 150.00 a month
it's not adviseable to just create a blog what with all the attacks from eastern block countries
There are groups in the NAR who are complete grace only, christian faith believers do not have to behave by any rules.
Now I am not a strict and particular baptist, and in some regards a liberal, but commands are spoken to be obeyed.
Grace is about failure and forgiveness.
So after reading your posts I am at a loss what your problem is with the argument.
Can you summarise, because it would be helpful in a debating kind of way, what your proposition actually is?
If you cannot do this the impression is you are just a combatent who wishes to push themselves rather than the Lord.
ps. you do feel you can argue well, do you think this is true, or is it something else?
Now I am not a strict and particular baptist, and in some regards a liberal, but commands are spoken to be obeyed.
Grace is about failure and forgiveness.
So after reading your posts I am at a loss what your problem is with the argument.
Can you summarise, because it would be helpful in a debating kind of way, what your proposition actually is?
If you cannot do this the impression is you are just a combatent who wishes to push themselves rather than the Lord.
ps. you do feel you can argue well, do you think this is true, or is it something else?
What you have posted is true. Keep in mind besides forgiving all, we must keep in mind the history leading up to it in cse the forgiven is not interested in receiving forgivemess. We must pray for those who trespass against us, but never pray for what they do if it is wrong... So we forgive our detractors if they will receive it, pray for their souls, but never for what they do if it is evil. Simplr, and true.
E
ah dear Ken
you concluded something I did not say...so questions would be better perhaps? next time?
there will always be variance of doctrine...I have changed my own over the years...haven't you?
yes, scripture does agree with itself...of course...but I do not think I possess all truth...do you think you possess all truth?
refusing to discuss, which is not you obviously, is a person's perogative of course
however, if one is going to refuse a perfectly legitimate question and act like a prig about it, then the entire thread becomes of no use other then a breeding ground for arguements
K
Yes you are right as Jesus said this;
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
He stated this because by looking into and living by all the word of God will lead one to be molded to the ways of the Lord in their life, as the instructions He gave in His teachings and commands will be seen done in true believers of Him.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Apostle Paul stated this that in now days is misused to make the Word of God more difficult to understand then what it really is through the Holy Spirit. By studying the word on how to apply His ways to our life we will show in our actions that we are followers of the Lord.
Rightly dividing the word does not mean to take and use only the parts we like to use, and not use or explain away other parts as all believers in Christ are to follow the same standard the Lord set forth. (faith, hope, and love)
Well said. The Pharisaical rules in this following scripture is what is being addressed. This scripture is used to deny God's rules instead, which is a tactic of the adversary not the ignorant that have come to believe this error.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10
E
PeterJens;2307664There are groups in the NAR who are complete grace only, christian faith believers do not have to behave by any rules.
It seems I have been fortunate or perhaps blessed, to have reached my current age in unencumbered ignorant bliss of some of the extremes of Christianity...which is one reason I find Christian forums so educational haha
No one responding in this thread, or actually that I have come across in my 'walkabouts' on this site, believes in 'cheap grace' either; so, the claims made by certain responders that we think we can continue to sin are, to coin a lovely English phrase, utter rubbish! and so begins the ire right there
Now I am not a strict and particular baptist, and in some regards a liberal, but commands are spoken to be obeyed.
Grace is about failure and forgiveness.
sigh...please read above response, several times if necessary and understand that no one is suggesting otherwise!!!
So after reading your posts I am at a loss what your problem is with the argument.
Can you summarise, because it would be helpful in a debating kind of way, what your proposition actually is?
please refer then to Bens' posts...I am in agreement with him and they might speak to you with reference to your question
If you cannot do this the impression is you are just a combatent who wishes to push themselves rather than the Lord.
that's really quite helpful...YOU don't understand what I wrote, so therefore all I want is a brawl
ps. you do feel you can argue well, do you think this is true, or is it something else?
It seems I have been fortunate or perhaps blessed, to have reached my current age in unencumbered ignorant bliss of some of the extremes of Christianity...which is one reason I find Christian forums so educational haha
No one responding in this thread, or actually that I have come across in my 'walkabouts' on this site, believes in 'cheap grace' either; so, the claims made by certain responders that we think we can continue to sin are, to coin a lovely English phrase, utter rubbish! and so begins the ire right there
Now I am not a strict and particular baptist, and in some regards a liberal, but commands are spoken to be obeyed.
Grace is about failure and forgiveness.
sigh...please read above response, several times if necessary and understand that no one is suggesting otherwise!!!
So after reading your posts I am at a loss what your problem is with the argument.
Can you summarise, because it would be helpful in a debating kind of way, what your proposition actually is?
please refer then to Bens' posts...I am in agreement with him and they might speak to you with reference to your question
If you cannot do this the impression is you are just a combatent who wishes to push themselves rather than the Lord.
that's really quite helpful...YOU don't understand what I wrote, so therefore all I want is a brawl
ps. you do feel you can argue well, do you think this is true, or is it something else?