Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

[cgaviria]

Hello guys, my name is Christian and I want to start a discussion on things I have concluded over many years of study since I was a kid. Alot of the things I have concluded do not agree with mainstream Christianity nor the Catholic church as I truly believe most Christians are led astray by false doctrine. I am posting these things in hopes to start a debate, because I think it is healthy to discuss scripture, as that is the only thing I am interested in with being here, to discuss in hopes to find truth, and I also hope to find other believers who might hold the same doctrines. So here I go (and I can back all these things with scripture):


1. First and foremost I believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and was made manifest in the flesh to us, and died, and was resurrected, and in him we have salvation.


2. I believe in predestination, God chooses and God preordains. It is a clear teaching of scripture. We do what we do because he has already determined what we will do from the very beginning.


3. I believe in the literal power of the Holy Spirit. When receiving the Holy Spirit there is clear evidence of having it, such as speaking on different languages, and healings, and miracles.


4. I believe that in receiving the Holy Spirit we are then born of God, and that our mind is literally changed to be able to follow the commandments of God. Upon receiving the Holy Spirit, you sin no more, as it is impossible to do so.


5. I believe the whore of Babylon is the Vatican and its church, and has corrupted the entire world with false teachings, and that most of christianity that exists in the world still has many of the teachings that were created by the roman catholic church. I believe the vatican will be destroyed first at some point in the future, by 10 entities that are yet to reveal themselves to us, before the coming of the Lord.


6. I believe America to be the beast of the earth, the false prophet, spreading its form of government unto the world, as in spreading its democratic form of government unto many other nations, and that this form of government first originated in the Roman empire, which is also the first beast, the beast of the sea, which is now reviving in the european union as its own entity, and shares this same form of government. I believe the "image of the beast" to be other smaller nations taking on this same form of government, as in other smaller democracies. This is clearly evident in the characteristic of the US to spread its form of government unto other nations, and as of late there have been public CIA releases showing the US government's involvement in the coupe of many nations and setting up puppet democracies. I'm not a "conspiracist", as I dont think the leaders in our government are aware that they are fulfilling prophecy, they are just blindly spreading a way of life and a way of government that is evil in the eyes of God, as it concerns the things of man and not the things of God.


7. I believe the rapture is a false teaching. I believe in ONE second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, where ALL the dead IN HIM, are raised from the dead, and lifted up to meet him in the air as he descends upon the earth. The resurrection of the saints along with the taking away AND the second coming are all ONE single event, there is no secret rapture.


8. I believe in a literal death. When you sleep it is black, you are unconscious, you are unaware, UNTIL the moment of resurrection, where you are brought back to life. I believe the reason God made man in need of sleep was to foreshadow the death that was to come to the world, and then to also foreshadow resurrection, because just as we fall asleep and wake up (how quick it is), i believe that death and resurrection to be similar (it is quick, and we wake up in new bodies).


9. I believe that there are three things, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but it is not a "trinity" as originally taught and pushed by the catholic church. The Father is greater than the Son and the Spirit, as the Father has no beginning, and he has made both things for his glory. I believe that the Son and the Spirit were in the beginning, as written by scripture, but were created before all other things were made, and that through the Son were all things created.


10. I believe that all things should be done in the name of Jesus Christ alone as is taught throughout the book of Acts, including baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ alone. I believe the scripture in Matthew about the trinity was altered by the Roman Catholic Church and there is evidence of this and an earlier manuscript that was uncovered showing that the original text said "in my name" only.


11. I believe that the church should be run as in the book of Acts, assembling in homes with breaking of bread and communion, not as it is run today as big mega churches running as major corporate businesses.


12. I believe tithing to be a false teaching, the apostles instructed all new believers to sell everything that they had, and live humbly, and share with each as they had need. I believe this same instruction applies today.


13. I believe that the real promised land is the earth, not the plot of the land in Israel. As it is said, the meek will inherit the earth. I believe that at the second coming of Jesus Christ, as believers, we are to take dominion of the earth. Its at this coming that Jesus Christ will lead a war to destroy nations on the earth, and to throw people in a great fire (hell and gehenna, a literal fire on the earth to destroy people that are alive) that will exist in the future, and that in this fire is where the prophecy of "The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away;" in the Psalms will be fulfilled.


14. I believe the judgment of Hell and Gehenna to be a fire that will exist in the future to destroy people that are alive and not in Christ. Their judgment is death by the painful and dreadful death by fire.


15. I don't believe that you go to Heaven or Hell right after death. Like I explained in some of the items before, I believe in actual death, I believe in a resurrection, and as believers we are to remain on the Earth to take dominion of it at the coming of the Lord, and those who are not in Christ will be destroyed in fire. I also believe in a second resurrection where those people will be destroyed in this same fire that will exist (this is the second death).


16. I believe the true Sabbath to be on Saturday, not Sunday. Sunday was instituted by the catholic church and it is a false Sabbath. Although I don't believe we should take a legalistic approach in following the Sabbath, I do believe we are still to honor it and remember it, and there are even indications of the believers in the book of Acts respecting it. It it also one of the ten commandments! Its important!

 

[wolfwint]

Hello guys, my name is Christian and I want to start a discussion on things I have concluded over many years of study since I was a kid. Alot of the things I have concluded do not agree with mainstream Christianity nor the Catholic church as I truly believe most Christians are led astray by false doctrine. I am posting these things in hopes to start a debate, because I think it is healthy to discuss scripture, as that is the only thing I am interested in with being here, to discuss in hopes to find truth, and I also hope to find other believers who might hold the same doctrines. So here I go (and I can back all these things with scripture):


1. First and foremost I believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and was made manifest in the flesh to us, and died, and was resurrected, and in him we have salvation.


2. I believe in predestination, God chooses and God preordains. It is a clear teaching of scripture. We do what we do because he has already determined what we will do from the very beginning.


3. I believe in the literal power of the Holy Spirit. When receiving the Holy Spirit there is clear evidence of having it, such as speaking on different languages, and healings, and miracles.


4. I believe that in receiving the Holy Spirit we are then born of God, and that our mind is literally changed to be able to follow the commandments of God. Upon receiving the Holy Spirit, you sin no more, as it is impossible to do so.


5. I believe the whore of Babylon is the Vatican and its church, and has corrupted the entire world with false teachings, and that most of christianity that exists in the world still has many of the teachings that were created by the roman catholic church. I believe the vatican will be destroyed first at some point in the future, by 10 entities that are yet to reveal themselves to us, before the coming of the Lord.


6. I believe America to be the beast of the earth, the false prophet, spreading its form of government unto the world, as in spreading its democratic form of government unto many other nations, and that this form of government first originated in the Roman empire, which is also the first beast, the beast of the sea, which is now reviving in the european union as its own entity, and shares this same form of government. I believe the "image of the beast" to be other smaller nations taking on this same form of government, as in other smaller democracies. This is clearly evident in the characteristic of the US to spread its form of government unto other nations, and as of late there have been public CIA releases showing the US government's involvement in the coupe of many nations and setting up puppet democracies. I'm not a "conspiracist", as I dont think the leaders in our government are aware that they are fulfilling prophecy, they are just blindly spreading a way of life and a way of government that is evil in the eyes of God, as it concerns the things of man and not the things of God.


7. I believe the rapture is a false teaching. I believe in ONE second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, where ALL the dead IN HIM, are raised from the dead, and lifted up to meet him in the air as he descends upon the earth. The resurrection of the saints along with the taking away AND the second coming are all ONE single event, there is no secret rapture.


8. I believe in a literal death. When you sleep it is black, you are unconscious, you are unaware, UNTIL the moment of resurrection, where you are brought back to life. I believe the reason God made man in need of sleep was to foreshadow the death that was to come to the world, and then to also foreshadow resurrection, because just as we fall asleep and wake up (how quick it is), i believe that death and resurrection to be similar (it is quick, and we wake up in new bodies).


9. I believe that there are three things, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but it is not a "trinity" as originally taught and pushed by the catholic church. The Father is greater than the Son and the Spirit, as the Father has no beginning, and he has made both things for his glory. I believe that the Son and the Spirit were in the beginning, as written by scripture, but were created before all other things were made, and that through the Son were all things created.


10. I believe that all things should be done in the name of Jesus Christ alone as is taught throughout the book of Acts, including baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ alone. I believe the scripture in Matthew about the trinity was altered by the Roman Catholic Church and there is evidence of this and an earlier manuscript that was uncovered showing that the original text said "in my name" only.


11. I believe that the church should be run as in the book of Acts, assembling in homes with breaking of bread and communion, not as it is run today as big mega churches running as major corporate businesses.


12. I believe tithing to be a false teaching, the apostles instructed all new believers to sell everything that they had, and live humbly, and share with each as they had need. I believe this same instruction applies today.


13. I believe that the real promised land is the earth, not the plot of the land in Israel. As it is said, the meek will inherit the earth. I believe that at the second coming of Jesus Christ, as believers, we are to take dominion of the earth. Its at this coming that Jesus Christ will lead a war to destroy nations on the earth, and to throw people in a great fire (hell and gehenna, a literal fire on the earth to destroy people that are alive) that will exist in the future, and that in this fire is where the prophecy of "The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away;" in the Psalms will be fulfilled.


14. I believe the judgment of Hell and Gehenna to be a fire that will exist in the future to destroy people that are alive and not in Christ. Their judgment is death by the painful and dreadful death by fire.


15. I don't believe that you go to Heaven or Hell right after death. Like I explained in some of the items before, I believe in actual death, I believe in a resurrection, and as believers we are to remain on the Earth to take dominion of it at the coming of the Lord, and those who are not in Christ will be destroyed in fire. I also believe in a second resurrection where those people will be destroyed in this same fire that will exist (this is the second death).


16. I believe the true Sabbath to be on Saturday, not Sunday. Sunday was instituted by the catholic church and it is a false Sabbath. Although I don't believe we should take a legalistic approach in following the Sabbath, I do believe we are still to honor it and remember it, and there are even indications of the believers in the book of Acts respecting it. It it also one of the ten commandments! Its important!

Hi Christian, its a big task. Many points for one thread. I will start with your last point No 16.
We are not celebrating sunday, because of rcc doctrine. We are celebrating sunday, the first day of the week, because our Lord rose up at a "Sunday" and second the early church celebratet on sunday ( acts 20,7) earlier they met every day in tempel(acts 2,46). But this meant not to celebrate the seventh day.

 

[wolfwint]

well, to no 14:
where the scripture said that the fire in the hell will destroy the people? The will stay their in eternety. Rev. 20,10.13-15 and 21,8

 

[Genesis28-15]

Wow, awesome post! I have come to a lot of these same conclusions in my walk that are somewhat in contrast to the teachings of mainstream Christianity. Many of the concepts you listed here are very serious concepts concerning salvation, yet it seems like the majority of people completely miss the mark. I especially like the point you made about the rapture (which is very clearly explained exactly the way you described it in Thes. 4:16-17-for those reading...). I still call it "the rapture" because we will " be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" but it is not at all the way most people are taught how it happens Pre-tribulation like in the Left Behind series.

I would like to call to attention a few of the things you listed that I do not totally agree with, simply because you said you would like to start a debate...
I'm not sure I understood you correctly on point #2... I do also believe in predestination because that can be clearly described in Scripture. It sounds as though you explain away free-will though.
"We do what we do because he has already determined what we will do from the very beginning."
If that is the case, why was Paul even sent "[FONT=helvetica, arial]to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' (Acts 26:18) ? Are you saying that we have no choices to make? And if we do not have any control over whether we serve Satan or God, why does is it that we are taught that the gospel is to "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand." Can we even choose to repent? And if not why preach? What's the point of having God's word at all if we don't hold the power to choose to obey it?[/FONT]

[FONT=helvetica, arial]The second thing that I noticed, which I think is probably just a matter of semantics, is that you said in point #9 that the Son was "created." I don't think He was created like everything else was created, like the sons of God were created and Adam was created, but He was pro-created...Hence, He is the only BEGOTTEN Son. Again, that one might just be a matter of terminology, but still...[/FONT]

[FONT=helvetica, arial]The only point on here that I absolutely do not agree with at all is #12. I tithe diligently because of what is says in Malachi 3. Yes, I know that is Old Testament, but I don't disregard the entire OT just because we have a New Covenant. It is part God's Word too. [/FONT]

[FONT=helvetica, arial]I'd like to hear your response the these things. And again, GREAT POST! You made some really excellent points.
(BTW, disregard the sizing and fonts of this post-they are not meant for emphasis... This is literally my first post ever and I'm having some technical difficulties [/FONT][FONT=helvetica, arial] )[/FONT]

 

[cgaviria]

Hi Christian, its a big task. Many points for one thread. I will start with your last point No 16.
We are not celebrating sunday, because of rcc doctrine. We are celebrating sunday, the first day of the week, because our Lord rose up at a "Sunday" and second the early church celebratet on sunday ( acts 20,7) earlier they met every day in tempel(acts 2,46). But this meant not to celebrate the seventh day.

These are interesting scriptures, but are you aware of any scriptures indicating that the early church did not follow, that is, rest and respect the actual Sabbath? So yes these verses do indicate that they did assemble on Sunday, but are you aware of any verses showing what they did on the actual sabbath?

 

[wolfwint]

the points 5,6 and 8 are very speculative from my side.
About no 4: Did you ever met a christian who does not a sin?

 

[posthuman]

9. I believe that there are three things, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but it is not a "trinity" as originally taught and pushed by the catholic church. The Father is greater than the Son and the Spirit, as the Father has no beginning, and he has made both things for his glory. I believe that the Son and the Spirit were in the beginning, as written by scripture, but were created before all other things were made, and that through the Son were all things created.

if without Him nothing that is created was created, how can He Himself have been created?

 

[wolfwint]

About point 9: where in scripture we found that God Jesus Christ was created? If the son is created he is not God! John 1,1-16says clear that Jesus Christ is God! Of course we find the word trinty not in the bible. But if you study about God father, God Son and God Holy Spirit you will find that they belongs together, even if it is not fully clear to us.

 

[Willie-T]

Hello guys, my name is Christian and I want to start a discussion on things I have concluded over many years of study since I was a kid. Alot of the things I have concluded do not agree with mainstream Christianity nor the Catholic church as I truly believe most Christians are led astray by false doctrine. I am posting these things in hopes to start a debate, because I think it is healthy to discuss scripture, as that is the only thing I am interested in with being here, to discuss in hopes to find truth, and I also hope to find other believers who might hold the same doctrines. So here I go (and I can back all these things with scripture):


1. First and foremost I believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and was made manifest in the flesh to us, and died, and was resurrected, and in him we have salvation.


2. I believe in predestination, God chooses and God preordains. It is a clear teaching of scripture. We do what we do because he has already determined what we will do from the very beginning.


3. I believe in the literal power of the Holy Spirit. When receiving the Holy Spirit there is clear evidence of having it, such as speaking on different languages, and healings, and miracles.


4. I believe that in receiving the Holy Spirit we are then born of God, and that our mind is literally changed to be able to follow the commandments of God. Upon receiving the Holy Spirit, you sin no more, as it is impossible to do so.


5. I believe the whore of Babylon is the Vatican and its church, and has corrupted the entire world with false teachings, and that most of christianity that exists in the world still has many of the teachings that were created by the roman catholic church. I believe the vatican will be destroyed first at some point in the future, by 10 entities that are yet to reveal themselves to us, before the coming of the Lord.


6. I believe America to be the beast of the earth, the false prophet, spreading its form of government unto the world, as in spreading its democratic form of government unto many other nations, and that this form of government first originated in the Roman empire, which is also the first beast, the beast of the sea, which is now reviving in the european union as its own entity, and shares this same form of government. I believe the "image of the beast" to be other smaller nations taking on this same form of government, as in other smaller democracies. This is clearly evident in the characteristic of the US to spread its form of government unto other nations, and as of late there have been public CIA releases showing the US government's involvement in the coupe of many nations and setting up puppet democracies. I'm not a "conspiracist", as I dont think the leaders in our government are aware that they are fulfilling prophecy, they are just blindly spreading a way of life and a way of government that is evil in the eyes of God, as it concerns the things of man and not the things of God.


7. I believe the rapture is a false teaching. I believe in ONE second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, where ALL the dead IN HIM, are raised from the dead, and lifted up to meet him in the air as he descends upon the earth. The resurrection of the saints along with the taking away AND the second coming are all ONE single event, there is no secret rapture.


8. I believe in a literal death. When you sleep it is black, you are unconscious, you are unaware, UNTIL the moment of resurrection, where you are brought back to life. I believe the reason God made man in need of sleep was to foreshadow the death that was to come to the world, and then to also foreshadow resurrection, because just as we fall asleep and wake up (how quick it is), i believe that death and resurrection to be similar (it is quick, and we wake up in new bodies).


9. I believe that there are three things, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but it is not a "trinity" as originally taught and pushed by the catholic church. The Father is greater than the Son and the Spirit, as the Father has no beginning, and he has made both things for his glory. I believe that the Son and the Spirit were in the beginning, as written by scripture, but were created before all other things were made, and that through the Son were all things created.


10. I believe that all things should be done in the name of Jesus Christ alone as is taught throughout the book of Acts, including baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ alone. I believe the scripture in Matthew about the trinity was altered by the Roman Catholic Church and there is evidence of this and an earlier manuscript that was uncovered showing that the original text said "in my name" only.


11. I believe that the church should be run as in the book of Acts, assembling in homes with breaking of bread and communion, not as it is run today as big mega churches running as major corporate businesses.


12. I believe tithing to be a false teaching, the apostles instructed all new believers to sell everything that they had, and live humbly, and share with each as they had need. I believe this same instruction applies today.


13. I believe that the real promised land is the earth, not the plot of the land in Israel. As it is said, the meek will inherit the earth. I believe that at the second coming of Jesus Christ, as believers, we are to take dominion of the earth. Its at this coming that Jesus Christ will lead a war to destroy nations on the earth, and to throw people in a great fire (hell and gehenna, a literal fire on the earth to destroy people that are alive) that will exist in the future, and that in this fire is where the prophecy of "The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away;" in the Psalms will be fulfilled.


14. I believe the judgment of Hell and Gehenna to be a fire that will exist in the future to destroy people that are alive and not in Christ. Their judgment is death by the painful and dreadful death by fire.


15. I don't believe that you go to Heaven or Hell right after death. Like I explained in some of the items before, I believe in actual death, I believe in a resurrection, and as believers we are to remain on the Earth to take dominion of it at the coming of the Lord, and those who are not in Christ will be destroyed in fire. I also believe in a second resurrection where those people will be destroyed in this same fire that will exist (this is the second death).


16. I believe the true Sabbath to be on Saturday, not Sunday. Sunday was instituted by the catholic church and it is a false Sabbath. Although I don't believe we should take a legalistic approach in following the Sabbath, I do believe we are still to honor it and remember it, and there are even indications of the believers in the book of Acts respecting it. It it also one of the ten commandments! Its important!

That's interesting.

 

[wolfwint]

These are interesting scriptures, but are you aware of any scriptures indicating that the early church did not follow, that is, rest and respect the actual Sabbath? So yes these verses do indicate that they did assemble on Sunday, but are you aware of any verses showing what they did on the actual sabbath?

Hm, for what reasons churches like corinth ore ephesus should assamble on a jewish celebration day. Is the day when their lord rose a reason to assemble at tbis day also to renember it. Fact is, that the bible teaches this and not the Rcc, it was then common that christians met on sunday and Jews at saturday. Important should be that we celebrate this day to the Lord.Where the bible teaches that christians should assamble on Saturday?

 

[cgaviria]

well, to no 14:
where the scripture said that the fire in the hell will destroy the people? The will stay their in eternety. Rev. 20,10.13-15 and 21,8

Good question! Here are THREE scriptures to continue this conversation with you, and some logic behind it, if you still need more scriptures, I will gladly provide in another post:

And [*3*was laid hold of *1*the *2*beast], and with this one the false prophet, the one performing the signs before him, in which he misled the ones receiving the imprint of the beast, and the ones doing obeisance to his image. [*4*living *3*were thrown *1*The *2*two] into the lake of fire burning with sulphur. (Revelation of John 19:20 [ABP])

Here we can agree that this beast, or rather a nation, since a beast in Revelation is indicative of a kingdom aka a nation, that is ALIVE on the earth, is thrown into a lake of fire. What is this nation made of?? People. So here we can conclude that in the future a certain kind of people will be thrown into some sort of fire. Right?

Lets read further in another scripture.

[9] He dispersed; he gave to the needy; his righteousness abides into the eon of the eon; his horn shall be raised up high in glory. [10] A sinner shall see and shall be provoked to anger; [*2*his teeth *1*he shall gnash] and melt away; the desire of the sinner shall perish.
(Psalms 112:9-10 [ABP])

Gnashing of teeth, sound familiar?

And they shall throw them into the furnace of the fire; there, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth. (Matthew 13:42 [ABP])

And what happens to these people that are evidently tossed into some fire some time in the future? They die! Hence, "melt away". And not ONLY THAT, READ FURTHER, THIS IS THE EYE OPENER:

[23] And it will be month by month, and Sabbath by Sabbath, [*3*shall come *1*all *2*flesh] to do obeisance before me in Jerusalem, said the LORD. [24] And they shall go forth, and shall see the carcasses of men, the ones violating against me. For their worm shall not come to an end, and their fire shall not be extinguished. And they will be for a sight to all flesh.
(Isaiah 66:23-24 [ABP])

DID YOU SEE THAT?? They will see THEIR CARCASSES! Whose carcasses?????? The ones that were thrown into THIS FIRE! You can only HAVE A CARCASS if YOU DIE! A CARCASS IS A BODY THAT IS DECOMPOSING FROM DEATH!

Who will see these carcasses that are thrown into this fire????? People that are alive on the earth!!!

This scripture in Isaiah is the VERY SAME scripture Jesus referenced when he saide:

where their worm does not come to an end, and the fire is not extinguished. (Mark 9:48 [ABP])

So what can we conclude from these scriptures???

That HELL, or Gehenna, is a FIRE that WILL EXIST IN THE FUTURE, where PEOPLE THAT ARE ALIVE will be THROWN INTO THIS FIRE, TO BE KILLED, AND THEIR CARCASSES WILL BE VISIBLE TO OTHER PEOPLE ON THE EARTH, BY JESUS AFTER HIS COMING!

 

[Genesis28-15]

the points 5,6 and 8 are very speculative from my side.
About no 4: Did you ever met a christian who does not a sin?

Oh right, Christian, that was the other point I meant to address but I forgot it... " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)

 

[popeye]

9. I believe that there are three things, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but it is not a "trinity" as originally taught and pushed by the catholic church. The Father is greater than the Son and the Spirit, as the Father has no beginning, and he has made both things for his glory. I believe that the Son and the Spirit were in the beginning, as written by scripture, but were created before all other things were made, and that through the Son were all things created.

This is heresy.

You come against the testimony of Jesus.

This "foundation" and it's deception is why you got about half your points wrong.

 

[cgaviria]

Wow, awesome post! I have come to a lot of these same conclusions in my walk that are somewhat in contrast to the teachings of mainstream Christianity. Many of the concepts you listed here are very serious concepts concerning salvation, yet it seems like the majority of people completely miss the mark. I especially like the point you made about the rapture (which is very clearly explained exactly the way you described it in Thes. 4:16-17-for those reading...). I still call it "the rapture" because we will " be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" but it is not at all the way most people are taught how it happens Pre-tribulation like in the Left Behind series.

I would like to call to attention a few of the things you listed that I do not totally agree with, simply because you said you would like to start a debate...
I'm not sure I understood you correctly on point #2... I do also believe in predestination because that can be clearly described in Scripture. It sounds as though you explain away free-will though.
"We do what we do because he has already determined what we will do from the very beginning."
If that is the case, why was Paul even sent "to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' (Acts 26:18) ? Are you saying that we have no choices to make? And if we do not have any control over whether we serve Satan or God, why does is it that we are taught that the gospel is to "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand." Can we even choose to repent? And if not why preach? What's the point of having God's word at all if we don't hold the power to choose to obey it?

The second thing that I noticed, which I think is probably just a matter of semantics, is that you said in point #9 that the Son was "created." I don't think He was created like everything else was created, like the sons of God were created and Adam was created, but He was pro-created...Hence, He is the only BEGOTTEN Son. Again, that one might just be a matter of terminology, but still...

The only point on here that I absolutely do not agree with at all is #12. I tithe diligently because of what is says in Malachi 3. Yes, I know that is Old Testament, but I don't disregard the entire OT just because we have a New Covenant. It is part God's Word too.

I'd like to hear your response the these things. And again, GREAT POST! You made some really excellent points.
(BTW, disregard the sizing and fonts of this post-they are not meant for emphasis... This is literally my first post ever and I'm having some technical difficulties )

These are great questions. Firstly, I believe man has a will and God has a will. Both sides of the story are clearly evident in scripture. Now the hard part to perceive, and that not many people can understand, is that God's will is really what drives the will of man. Its hard to swallow. This is clearly evident in various scriptures, and one in particular is noteworthy:

No one is able to come to me unless the father, the one having sent me, should draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6:44 [ABP])

So yes, we do have a will, but our will is steered by his will. For example, I am typing this post right now, I am willing for it to happen, but what is REALLY true is that this moment of me typing was really willed by God for it to happen from the very beginning. How it is evident? Because it is happening. Nothing happens outside if His will. So yes we must choose to do things, like repent, and seek after God, but also be aware that we are even drawn to will to do these things because He first willed for us to want to do these things.

I do truly believe Jesus Christ was created at the beginning of creation, he was present there in the beginning because he was created in the beginning, and AFTER he was made, were ALL THINGS made THROUGH HIM, in a certain scripture we even read:

who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15 [ABP])

He is the first born of things created! Meaning he too, was created!

It is ONLY the Father, that has no beginning.

The early church in Acts was not instructed ever to tithe, that was something that was done in the time of the Jews and the temple. And taking this further, we see clear evidence that the believers did not tithe, but rather, did something even GREATER, they SOLD EVERYTHING that they had, and gave as each had need:

[44] But all the ones believing were together, and had all in common. [45] And the possessions and the things of substance they sold, and they divided them to all in so far as anyone [*2*need *1*had].
(Acts 2:44-45 [ABP])

And the multitude of the ones believing was [*2*heart *3*and *4*soul *1*of one]; and not even one [*2*anything *3*existing *4*to him *1*said] to be his own; but [*2*were *4*to them *1*all things *3*in common]. (Acts 4:32 [ABP])

[42] And they were attending constantly in the teaching of the apostles, and in the fellowship, and in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers. [43] [*3*came *1*And *4*to every *5*soul *2*fear]; and many miracles and signs [*2*through *3*the *4*apostles *1*took place]. [44] But all the ones believing were together, and had all in common. [45] And the possessions and the things of substance they sold, and they divided them to all in so far as anyone [*2*need *1*had].
(Acts 2:42-45 [ABP])

[3] [*3*said *1*And *2*Peter], Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie against the [*2*spirit *1*holy], and to pilfer from the value of the place? [4] [*4*not *1*Remaining *2*in your possession *3*did it] remain? and for selling [*2*in *3*your *4*authority *1*it existed]? Why is it that you put [*2*in *3*your heart *1*this thing]? You did not lie to men, but to God.
(Acts 5:3-4 [ABP])

Here we see indicated that although the believers sold all their stuff, they still kept control of the money. The money wasn't pooled into one church account, it was merely just shared as each had need. This is how the church should run!

 

[Genesis28-15]

Good question! Here are THREE scriptures to continue this conversation with you, and some logic behind it, if you still need more scriptures, I will gladly provide in another post:


Here we can agree that this beast, or rather a nation, since a beast in Revelation is indicative of a kingdom aka a nation, that is ALIVE on the earth, is thrown into a lake of fire. What is this nation made of?? People. So here we can conclude that in the future a certain kind of people will be thrown into some sort of fire. Right?

Lets read further in another scripture.




Gnashing of teeth, sound familiar?



And what happens to these people that are evidently tossed into some fire some time in the future? They die! Hence, "melt away". And not ONLY THAT, READ FURTHER, THIS IS THE EYE OPENER:




DID YOU SEE THAT?? They will see THEIR CARCASSES! Whose carcasses?????? The ones that were thrown into THIS FIRE! You can only HAVE A CARCASS if YOU DIE! A CARCASS IS A BODY THAT IS DECOMPOSING FROM DEATH!

Who will see these carcasses that are thrown into this fire????? People that are alive on the earth!!!

This scripture in Isaiah is the VERY SAME scripture Jesus referenced when he saide:



So what can we conclude from these scriptures???

That HELL, or Gehenna, is a FIRE that WILL EXIST IN THE FUTURE, where PEOPLE THAT ARE ALIVE will be THROWN INTO THIS FIRE, TO BE KILLED, AND THEIR CARCASSES WILL BE VISIBLE TO OTHER PEOPLE ON THE EARTH, BY JESUS AFTER HIS COMING!

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:46

How can a person who is dead experience everlasting punishment?

Have you ever considered the possibility that their bodies do die and their souls are forever tormented, in a state of awareness and consciousness that can not be simply described as "dead" (inanimate/deprived of sensation or feeling) in the context that you are using it?

 

[Lancelot]

2. I believe in predestination, God chooses and God preordains. It is a clear teaching of scripture. We do what we do because he has already determined what we will do from the very beginning.

If I choose to stick a straw up my nose or rent a porn flick is that because God preordained it? When the Bible talks about predestination in Eph. 1:4,5 it's talking about our adoption into the family of God. In Rom. 8:28-30 it's talking about conforming to the image of Christ. In neither case are we told that our fate as individuals was predestined and we had no say in the matter. Yes, God had a plan from the beginning to redeem fallen humanity, but that doesn't mean that choice isn't involved. To read that into the passages is to dismiss the concept of free will, that "whosoever will" can choose Jesus.

 

[Genesis28-15]

Good question! Here are THREE scriptures to continue this conversation with you, and some logic behind it, if you still need more scriptures, I will gladly provide in another post:


Here we can agree that this beast, or rather a nation, since a beast in Revelation is indicative of a kingdom aka a nation, that is ALIVE on the earth, is thrown into a lake of fire. What is this nation made of?? People. So here we can conclude that in the future a certain kind of people will be thrown into some sort of fire. Right?

Lets read further in another scripture.




Gnashing of teeth, sound familiar?



And what happens to these people that are evidently tossed into some fire some time in the future? They die! Hence, "melt away". And not ONLY THAT, READ FURTHER, THIS IS THE EYE OPENER:




DID YOU SEE THAT?? They will see THEIR CARCASSES! Whose carcasses?????? The ones that were thrown into THIS FIRE! You can only HAVE A CARCASS if YOU DIE! A CARCASS IS A BODY THAT IS DECOMPOSING FROM DEATH!

Who will see these carcasses that are thrown into this fire????? People that are alive on the earth!!!

This scripture in Isaiah is the VERY SAME scripture Jesus referenced when he saide:



So what can we conclude from these scriptures???

That HELL, or Gehenna, is a FIRE that WILL EXIST IN THE FUTURE, where PEOPLE THAT ARE ALIVE will be THROWN INTO THIS FIRE, TO BE KILLED, AND THEIR CARCASSES WILL BE VISIBLE TO OTHER PEOPLE ON THE EARTH, BY JESUS AFTER HIS COMING!

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:46

How can a person who is dead experience everlasting punishment?

Have you ever considered the possibility that their bodies do die and their souls are forever tormented, in a state of awareness and consciousness that can not be simply described as "dead" (inanimate/deprived of sensation or feeling) in the context that you are using it?

 

[cgaviria]

the points 5,6 and 8 are very speculative from my side.
About no 4: Did you ever met a christian who does not a sin?

I haven't met a christian that does not sin because I don't believe that I've ever met anyone YET that truly has the spirit of God.

 

[cgaviria]

if without Him nothing that is created was created, how can He Himself have been created?

EVERYTHING was created THROUGH HIM. He was THERE in the BEGINNING to create all things. Yet in knowing this, we also read:

who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15 [ABP])

This verse is indicative that he too was created as the first born of creation. So we can only assume that in the beginning was the Word created, and that THROUGH the WORD, were all things in creation made. Only the Father has no beginning, and all things, including the Son, have been made for his glory, and he has subjected all things to the Son, and he has chosen to make the Son to be in his very own image.

 

[VioletReigns]

I haven't met a christian that does not sin because I don't believe that I've ever met anyone YET that truly has the spirit of God.

I was waiting for the ball to drop. Well, we can't say he didn't warn us. He told us in the New Christian Chat Members forum that he recently "encountered opposition" from another Bible forum which he then "abandoned" (was banned from??) their forum.

And is it me, or does his user name sound slightly familiar?