Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

[james57]

The firstborn is not just the one that inherits all things, it is also the one that is BORN FIRST, HENCE first born...... first born in the creation. So if anything, first born is DEFINITELY very indicative of Jesus Christ being BORN FIRST as a part of the creation, AND also, an inheritor of everything in creation.

Also, none of what you said has affirmed that Jesus has no beginning as the father. All things HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO HIM AND CREATED THROUGH HIM, AND HE IS INDEED THE HEAD OF THE BODY, YESSSSS.

And notice how you even quoted this:



If Jesus had no beginning, what would this scripture say he IS THE BEGINNING.

So I'm telling you, IN THE BEGINNING, the Word was created, and through the Word, were all things made. The Word was present in the very beginning, because it was made before all other things were made, and all other things were made through the Word.

The biblical beginning is creation( heb1:10)

 

[gotime]

The firstborn is not just the one that inherits all things, it is also the one that is BORN FIRST, HENCE first born...... first born in the creation. So if anything, first born is DEFINITELY very indicative of Jesus Christ being BORN FIRST as a part of the creation, AND also, an inheritor of everything in creation.

Also, none of what you said has affirmed that Jesus has no beginning as the father. All things HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO HIM AND CREATED THROUGH HIM, AND HE IS INDEED THE HEAD OF THE BODY, YESSSSS.

And notice how you even quoted this:



If Jesus had no beginning, what would this scripture say he IS THE BEGINNING.

So I'm telling you, IN THE BEGINNING, the Word was created, and through the Word, were all things made. The Word was present in the very beginning, because it was made before all other things were made, and all other things were made through the Word.

your problem here is your use of firstborn. It says Jesus is also the firstborn from the dead, Jesus was not the first to raise from the dead. this automatically indicates that Paul's use of firstborn is figuratively used here.

As for your point with being the beginning and the end it is easily explained.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Alpha which is likened to beginning here is the first letter of the alphabet. There are no letters before it. The beginning here is used in the sense of there was nothing before.

 

[james57]

your problem here is your use of firstborn. It says Jesus is also the firstborn from the dead, Jesus was not the first to raise from the dead. this automatically indicates that Paul's use of firstborn is figuratively used here.

.

Who in your opinion was the firstborn to rise from the dead?

 

[posthuman]

EVERYTHING was created THROUGH HIM. He was THERE in the BEGINNING to create all things. Yet in knowing this, we also read:

who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15 [ABP])

This verse is indicative that he too was created as the first born of creation. So we can only assume that in the beginning was the Word created, and that THROUGH the WORD, were all things in creation made. Only the Father has no beginning, and all things, including the Son, have been made for his glory, and he has subjected all things to the Son, and he has chosen to make the Son to be in his very own image.

the scripture says:

in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

He is before all things and in Him all things hold together.
​

if He was made, He was not before Himself. but He is before all things.
He is the beginning. He is the end. He is the first; He is the last.

the scripture also says, speaking of the Father, who is God from everlasting to everlasting:

This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
(Isaiah 44:6)​

then if Christ was created, so also the Father, the Mighty God, who does not change, because the scripture says the same thing of Jah as it does of Jesus.
and if apart from Jah there is another God, then you make Jah a liar.
there is then only one God, and if Christ and the scripture do not lie, then the Son is this very same, and not another.

 

[popeye]

Hello guys, my name is Christian and I want to start a discussion on things I have concluded over many years of study since I was a kid. Alot of the things I have concluded do not agree with mainstream Christianity nor the Catholic church as I truly believe most Christians are led astray by false doctrine. I am posting these things in hopes to start a debate, because I think it is healthy to discuss scripture, as that is the only thing I am interested in with being here, to discuss in hopes to find truth, and I also hope to find other believers who might hold the same doctrines. So here I go (and I can back all these things with scripture):


1. First and foremost I believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and was made manifest in the flesh to us, and died, and was resurrected, and in him we have salvation.


2. I believe in predestination, God chooses and God preordains. It is a clear teaching of scripture. We do what we do because he has already determined what we will do from the very beginning.


3. I believe in the literal power of the Holy Spirit. When receiving the Holy Spirit there is clear evidence of having it, such as speaking on different languages, and healings, and miracles.


4. I believe that in receiving the Holy Spirit we are then born of God, and that our mind is literally changed to be able to follow the commandments of God. Upon receiving the Holy Spirit, you sin no more, as it is impossible to do so.


5. I believe the whore of Babylon is the Vatican and its church, and has corrupted the entire world with false teachings, and that most of christianity that exists in the world still has many of the teachings that were created by the roman catholic church. I believe the vatican will be destroyed first at some point in the future, by 10 entities that are yet to reveal themselves to us, before the coming of the Lord.


6. I believe America to be the beast of the earth, the false prophet, spreading its form of government unto the world, as in spreading its democratic form of government unto many other nations, and that this form of government first originated in the Roman empire, which is also the first beast, the beast of the sea, which is now reviving in the european union as its own entity, and shares this same form of government. I believe the "image of the beast" to be other smaller nations taking on this same form of government, as in other smaller democracies. This is clearly evident in the characteristic of the US to spread its form of government unto other nations, and as of late there have been public CIA releases showing the US government's involvement in the coupe of many nations and setting up puppet democracies. I'm not a "conspiracist", as I dont think the leaders in our government are aware that they are fulfilling prophecy, they are just blindly spreading a way of life and a way of government that is evil in the eyes of God, as it concerns the things of man and not the things of God.


7. I believe the rapture is a false teaching. I believe in ONE second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, where ALL the dead IN HIM, are raised from the dead, and lifted up to meet him in the air as he descends upon the earth. The resurrection of the saints along with the taking away AND the second coming are all ONE single event, there is no secret rapture.


8. I believe in a literal death. When you sleep it is black, you are unconscious, you are unaware, UNTIL the moment of resurrection, where you are brought back to life. I believe the reason God made man in need of sleep was to foreshadow the death that was to come to the world, and then to also foreshadow resurrection, because just as we fall asleep and wake up (how quick it is), i believe that death and resurrection to be similar (it is quick, and we wake up in new bodies).


9. I believe that there are three things, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but it is not a "trinity" as originally taught and pushed by the catholic church. The Father is greater than the Son and the Spirit, as the Father has no beginning, and he has made both things for his glory. I believe that the Son and the Spirit were in the beginning, as written by scripture, but were created before all other things were made, and that through the Son were all things created.


10. I believe that all things should be done in the name of Jesus Christ alone as is taught throughout the book of Acts, including baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ alone. I believe the scripture in Matthew about the trinity was altered by the Roman Catholic Church and there is evidence of this and an earlier manuscript that was uncovered showing that the original text said "in my name" only.


11. I believe that the church should be run as in the book of Acts, assembling in homes with breaking of bread and communion, not as it is run today as big mega churches running as major corporate businesses.


12. I believe tithing to be a false teaching, the apostles instructed all new believers to sell everything that they had, and live humbly, and share with each as they had need. I believe this same instruction applies today.


13. I believe that the real promised land is the earth, not the plot of the land in Israel. As it is said, the meek will inherit the earth. I believe that at the second coming of Jesus Christ, as believers, we are to take dominion of the earth. Its at this coming that Jesus Christ will lead a war to destroy nations on the earth, and to throw people in a great fire (hell and gehenna, a literal fire on the earth to destroy people that are alive) that will exist in the future, and that in this fire is where the prophecy of "The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away;" in the Psalms will be fulfilled.


14. I believe the judgment of Hell and Gehenna to be a fire that will exist in the future to destroy people that are alive and not in Christ. Their judgment is death by the painful and dreadful death by fire.


15. I don't believe that you go to Heaven or Hell right after death. Like I explained in some of the items before, I believe in actual death, I believe in a resurrection, and as believers we are to remain on the Earth to take dominion of it at the coming of the Lord, and those who are not in Christ will be destroyed in fire. I also believe in a second resurrection where those people will be destroyed in this same fire that will exist (this is the second death).


16. I believe the true Sabbath to be on Saturday, not Sunday. Sunday was instituted by the catholic church and it is a false Sabbath. Although I don't believe we should take a legalistic approach in following the Sabbath, I do believe we are still to honor it and remember it, and there are even indications of the believers in the book of Acts respecting it. It it also one of the ten commandments! Its important!

What a mish mashed mess.

A babe in Christ knows better.

Study the cults and see you pulled your doctrine from several.

Watchtower has your idea of a created Jesus as well as your notion on infallibility of a truly spirit filled believer, and " oneness" has your Jesus only doctrine,but gets most everything else right,unlike your "written in stone" conclusions.

 

[cgaviria]

The biblical beginning is creation( heb1:10)

You are confused about the beginning of things. Before God even spoke, things already existed, because God made them before he began speaking things into existence. Just because things existed before he began speaking does NOT imply that those things ALWAYS existed, meaning it had no beginning. Its just not scriptural and logical. Only the FATHER HAS NO BEGINNING. How do we know this? Read Genesis, here it is said,

" [1] In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. [2] But the earth was unseen and unready, and darkness was upon the abyss, and spirit of God bore upon the water.
(Genesis 1:1-2 [ABP])"

Did you see this? Water already existed before he began speaking! HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? BECAUSE HE CREATED THINGS BEFORE HE BEGAN SPEAKING! And just because the water was there before he began speaking, it does not imply that water has always existed, its just not logical, water was created before God began speaking the creation into existence.

It was after this verse, that we then read,

"And God said, Let there be light! And there was light. (Genesis 1:3 [ABP])"

This was his first speech to bring things into existence.

There is NOT ONE scripture that says Jesus had no beginning. If anything, we see various scriptures that indicate that HE IS THE BEGINNING, meaning HE WAS CREATED FIRST.

I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end, the first and the last. (Revelation of John 22:13 [ABP])

So what things do we read in Genesis that were present in the beginning of things? The water, the Spirit of God, and the a SPEECH, or rather, a Word, speaking things into existence. These things were present in the beginning because they were MADE in the beginning, and it was through the SPEECH, that all other things in the creation were made!

 

[crossnote]

1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,

Titus 3:9-10 KJVS
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. [10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

 

[cgaviria]

One thing often missed is the reality of Jesus becoming a man:

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

The bolded means he emptied himself and became a servant. Before he was full and not a servant nor a man.

When it says:

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

It must be understood in those terms, Jesus the man who is emptied himself and become a servant. The one who was higher than angels but now is a little lower than the angels. Jesus willingly became a lesser but He did not start that way. He started as an equal to the Father.

What really gets things going is when you come to the realization that Jesus is YHWH of the Old Testament.

Jesus is NOT the Father, for he even says,

You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I come to you. If you loved me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I go to the father, for my father [*2*greater than *3*me *1*is]. (John 14:28 [ABP])

If they were both equal, then why would Jesus himself even say that the Father was greater than him? Being equal with God does not imply that they both had no beginning, but rather, it is being ONE with God. Who is ONE with God? All his children born of the spirit.

But the person who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. (I Corinthians 6:17 [ABP])

[20] [20] [*3*not *4*for *5*these *1*And *2*I ask] only, but also for the ones believing [*3*through *4*their word *1*in *2*me]; [21] that all might be one; as you, O father, are in me, and I in you, that also they in us might be one; that the world should believe that you sent me. [22] And I [*3*the *4*glory *5*which *6*you have given *7*to me *1*have given *2*to them], that they should be one, as we are one. [23] I in them, and you in me, that they should be perfected into one; and that [*3*should know *1*the *2*world] that you sent me, and loved them, as you loved me.
(John 17:20-23 [ABP])

And those that are sons of God, are themselves ALSO equal with God, because they are ONE with God. Its even written in a verse that even Jesus himself made mention of:

I said, You are gods, and [*2*sons *3*of the highest *1*all]. (Psalms 82:6 [ABP])

Yes, the very word of God is calling them gods, because they are sons of the most high. And God has indeed engendered more sons of God, Jesus was the first born of the sons of God, as it is written,

But because you are sons, God sent out the spirit of his son in your hearts, crying out, Abba father. (Galatians 4:6 [ABP])

In scripture, being a son is indicative of being equal with God. So much so, that when even Jesus said he was a son of God, look what the Jews said,

On account of this then more [*3*sought *5*him *1*the *2*Jews *4*to kill], for not only he untied the Sabbath, but also [*4*father *3*his own *1*called *2*God], [*3*equal *2*himself *1*making] to God. (John 5:18 [ABP])

They were saying, he's claiming to be equal with God by calling himself a son of God.

So the equality with God is NOT JUST LIMITED TO JESUS, IT GOES ALSO TO ALL THE OTHER ENGENDERED SONS OF GOD WHO RECEIVE THE SPIRIT.

 

[cgaviria]

your problem here is your use of firstborn. It says Jesus is also the firstborn from the dead, Jesus was not the first to raise from the dead. this automatically indicates that Paul's use of firstborn is figuratively used here.

As for your point with being the beginning and the end it is easily explained.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Alpha which is likened to beginning here is the first letter of the alphabet. There are no letters before it. The beginning here is used in the sense of there was nothing before.

Jesus was in fact the first born of the resurrection of the dead. not just because he was resurrected, because there were indeed others in the past that had been resurrected from the dead, but because he was the FIRST to be resurrected in a new immortal body. So he is in fact the first born of the real resurrection into new immortal bodies.

 

[cgaviria]

the scripture says:

in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

He is before all things and in Him all things hold together.
​

if He was made, He was not before Himself. but He is before all things.
He is the beginning. He is the end. He is the first; He is the last.

the scripture also says, speaking of the Father, who is God from everlasting to everlasting:

This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
(Isaiah 44:6)​

then if Christ was created, so also the Father, the Mighty God, who does not change, because the scripture says the same thing of Jah as it does of Jesus.
and if apart from Jah there is another God, then you make Jah a liar.
there is then only one God, and if Christ and the scripture do not lie, then the Son is this very same, and not another.

Again, nothing of what you are saying here is indicative that the Word had no beginning, meaning Jesus had no beginning. He WAS PRESENT there in the beginning because he was MADE in the beginning to speak creation into existence. Read one of my responses here concerning Genesis. Did you know that water already existed before the Lord began speaking the creation into existence????? Does this mean water has always existed???? NO. The same with the Word, it was present in the beginning before it began uttering the earth and the heavens into existence, but it does not imply it did not have beginning.

 

[cgaviria]

1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,

Titus 3:9-10 KJVS
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. [10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Nobody here is quarreling, we are here discussing scripture. I don't claim to have all the answers, hence me saying I am a student of scripture as many of you. If you don't want to discuss these topics I have brought up with me, then by all means carry on unto another thread, I will not quarrel with you, lol.

 

[psalm6819]

I haven't met a christian that does not sin because I don't believe that I've ever met anyone YET that truly has the spirit of God.

Hi cgaviria, my name is Robin. I believe Jesus died for my sins, I believe Jesus was raised from the dead. I believe He is coming back. I beleive in His mercy, grace and just nature.

I have the Spirit of God living within me not boasting but that is what being born again is.

How do you do?

 

[cgaviria]

Hi cgaviria, my name is Robin. I believe Jesus died for my sins, I believe Jesus was raised from the dead. I believe He is coming back. I beleive in His mercy, grace and just nature.

I have the Spirit of God living within me not boasting but that is what being born again is.

How do you do?

Do you still sin?

 

[posthuman]

I haven't met a christian that does not sin because I don't believe that I've ever met anyone YET that truly has the spirit of God.

God has bound everyone over to disobedience
so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Romans 11:32)
​

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort,
but on God's mercy.
(Romans 9:16)

The horse is made ready for the day of battle,
but the victory belongs to the LORD.
(Proverbs 21:31)

​

 

[popeye]

You are confused about the beginning of things. Before God even spoke, things already existed, because God made them before he began speaking things into existence. Just because things existed before he began speaking does NOT imply that those things ALWAYS existed, meaning it had no beginning. Its just not scriptural and logical. Only the FATHER HAS NO BEGINNING. How do we know this? Read Genesis, here it is said,



Did you see this? Water already existed before he began speaking! HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? BECAUSE HE CREATED THINGS BEFORE HE BEGAN SPEAKING! And just because the water was there before he began speaking, it does not imply that water has always existed, its just not logical, water was created before God began speaking the creation into existence.

It was after this verse, that we then read,



This was his first speech to bring things into existence.

There is NOT ONE scripture that says Jesus had no beginning. If anything, we see various scriptures that indicate that HE IS THE BEGINNING, meaning HE WAS CREATED FIRST.



So what things do we read in Genesis that were present in the beginning of things? The water, the Spirit of God, and the a SPEECH, or rather, a Word, speaking things into existence. These things were present in the beginning because they were MADE in the beginning, and it was through the SPEECH, that all other things in the creation were made!

This is a 1st cousin to watchtower false doctrine.

Their "little darling lie" uses "first born" to arrive at the same room where you live.

Your door and their door leads into the same room.

 

[valiant]

1. First and foremost I believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and was made manifest in the flesh to us, and died, and was resurrected, and in him we have salvation.

If Jesus Christ is the only BEGOTTEN Son of God, how can He be created? That is self-contradictory.

2. I believe in predestination, God chooses and God preordains. It is a clear teaching of scripture. We do what we do because he has already determined what we will do from the very beginning.

Nowhere does Scripture say that ALL THAT WE DO is determined by God.

4. I believe that in receiving the Holy Spirit we are then born of God, and that our mind is literally changed to be able to follow the commandments of God. Upon receiving the Holy Spirit, you sin no more, as it is impossible to do so.

All of us sin every day for we do not love God with heart soul mind and strength.

5. I believe the whore of Babylon is the Vatican and its church, and has corrupted the entire world with false teachings, and that most of christianity that exists in the world still has many of the teachings that were created by the roman catholic church. I believe the vatican will be destroyed first at some point in the future, by 10 entities that are yet to reveal themselves to us, before the coming of the Lord.

I'm not interested in such fantasies.

6. I believe America to be the beast of the earth, the false prophet, spreading its form of government unto the world, as in spreading its democratic form of government unto many other nations, and that this form of government first originated in the Roman empire, which is also the first beast, the beast of the sea, which is now reviving in the european union as its own entity, and shares this same form of government. I believe the "image of the beast" to be other smaller nations taking on this same form of government, as in other smaller democracies. This is clearly evident in the characteristic of the US to spread its form of government unto other nations, and as of late there have been public CIA releases showing the US government's involvement in the coupe of many nations and setting up puppet democracies. I'm not a "conspiracist", as I dont think the leaders in our government are aware that they are fulfilling prophecy, they are just blindly spreading a way of life and a way of government that is evil in the eyes of God, as it concerns the things of man and not the things of God.

I think America is beastly LOL but not that beastly.

7. I believe the rapture is a false teaching. I believe in ONE second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, where ALL the dead IN HIM, are raised from the dead, and lifted up to meet him in the air as he descends upon the earth. The resurrection of the saints along with the taking away AND the second coming are all ONE single event, there is no secret rapture.

I agree that there is no secret rapture.

8. I believe in a literal death. When you sleep it is black, you are unconscious, you are unaware, UNTIL the moment of resurrection, where you are brought back to life.

Not what Paul taught. He said that when he died he would be with Christ which was far better. How an that refer to unconsciousness? He also said 'absent from the body, present with the Lord'. That doesn't fit in with YOUR ideas.

I believe the reason God made man in need of sleep was to foreshadow the death that was to come to the world, and then to also foreshadow resurrection, because just as we fall asleep and wake up (how quick it is), i believe that death and resurrection to be similar (it is quick, and we wake up in new bodies).

It is only the body which sleeps, the spirit goes immediately to God.

9. I believe that there are three things, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but it is not a "trinity" as originally taught and pushed by the catholic church. The Father is greater than the Son and the Spirit, as the Father has no beginning, and he has made both things for his glory. I believe that the Son and the Spirit were in the beginning, as written by scripture, but were created before all other things were made, and that through the Son were all things created.

How then could He be the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son? Nowhere in Scripture is there any suggestion that He was created. Scripture indeed makes clear that He is the ETERNAL Son of God.

I believe the scripture in Matthew about the trinity was altered by the Roman Catholic Church and there is evidence of this and an earlier manuscript that was uncovered showing that the original text said "in my name" only.

This is simply textual nonsense. ALL the main manuscripts contain Matt 28.19.

12. I believe tithing to be a false teaching, the apostles instructed all new believers to sell everything that they had, and live humbly, and share with each as they had need. I believe this same instruction applies today.

True but tithing is a good start. although NOT a requirement.

13. I believe that the real promised land is the earth, not the plot of the land in Israel. As it is said, the meek will inherit the earth. I believe that at the second coming of Jesus Christ, as believers, we are to take dominion of the earth.

Thank God we will be taken out of this earth which will be destroyed by fire (2 Pet 3). Our dominion will be with the Father and the Son in a wholly new spiritual and heavenly 'heaven and earth.

Its at this coming that Jesus Christ will lead a war to destroy nations on the earth, and to throw people in a great fire (hell and gehenna, a literal fire on the earth to destroy people that are alive) that will exist in the future, and that in this fire is where the prophecy of "The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away;" in the Psalms will be fulfilled.

Scripture nowhere says that Jesus will lead a war. He will destroy men with the sword of His mouth.

16. I believe the true Sabbath to be on Saturday, not Sunday. Sunday was instituted by the catholic church and it is a false Sabbath. Although I don't believe we should take a legalistic approach in following the Sabbath, I do believe we are still to honor it and remember it, and there are even indications of the believers in the book of Acts respecting it. It it also one of the ten commandments! Its important!

Then why did the early church worship on the first day of the week?

 

[valiant]

He is the first born of things created! Meaning he too, was created!

LOL How can First BORN signify that He was created. It says exactly the opposite

It is ONLY the Father, that has no beginning.

Evidence?

 

[posthuman]

Again, nothing of what you are saying here is indicative that the Word had no beginning, meaning Jesus had no beginning. He WAS PRESENT there in the beginning because he was MADE in the beginning to speak creation into existence. Read one of my responses here concerning Genesis. Did you know that water already existed before the Lord began speaking the creation into existence????? Does this mean water has always existed???? NO. The same with the Word, it was present in the beginning before it began uttering the earth and the heavens into existence, but it does not imply it did not have beginning.

Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
(Isaiah 48:12)

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last,
the beginning and the end.
(Revelation 22:12)
​

if you want to say that because Christ declares Himself "the first" that He must have a beginning, and is a created thing, not eternal,
then the Lord Almighty Himself declares the same thing about Himself through the mouth of His prophet Isaiah,
so you must accept that the Father too, by your reasoning, has beginning, and is created, since He is also called "first."

what does the scripture say about worshiping created things?

They exchanged the truth about God for a lie,
and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator
(Romans 1:25)​

how then does scripture also say that before Christ every knee will bow? how is it that all shall worship Him?

 

[posthuman]

Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
(Isaiah 48:12)

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last,
the beginning and the end.
(Revelation 22:12)
​

if you want to say that because Christ declares Himself "the first" that He must have a beginning, and is a created thing, not eternal,
then the Lord Almighty Himself declares the same thing about Himself through the mouth of His prophet Isaiah,
so you must accept that the Father too, by your reasoning, has beginning, and is created, since He is also called "first."

what does the scripture say about worshiping created things?

They exchanged the truth about God for a lie,
and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator
(Romans 1:25)​

how then does scripture also say that before Christ every knee will bow? how is it that all shall worship Him?

You were shown these things
so that you might know that the LORD is God;
besides him there is no other.
(Deuteronomy 4:35) ​

 

[popeye]

Jesus is NOT the Father, for he even says,



If they were both equal, then why would Jesus himself even say that the Father was greater than him? Being equal with God does not imply that they both had no beginning, but rather, it is being ONE with God. Who is ONE with God? All his children born of the spirit.





And those that are sons of God, are themselves ALSO equal with God, because they are ONE with God. Its even written in a verse that even Jesus himself made mention of:



Yes, the very word of God is calling them gods, because they are sons of the most high. And God has indeed engendered more sons of God, Jesus was the first born of the sons of God, as it is written,



In scripture, being a son is indicative of being equal with God. So much so, that when even Jesus said he was a son of God, look what the Jews said,



They were saying, he's claiming to be equal with God by calling himself a son of God.

So the equality with God is NOT JUST LIMITED TO JESUS, IT GOES ALSO TO ALL THE OTHER ENGENDERED SONS OF GOD WHO RECEIVE THE SPIRIT.

YOU ARE A HERETIC.

THEY DO NOT TOLERATE ASSASSINATION OF GOD'S WORD HERE.

YOU WILL BE EJECTED FROM THIS SITE....

IN 3,2,1.....