Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate
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Just because Jesus was created doesn't take away that he is indeed God, he has been chosen to be the very express image of the Father. As it is said:
And even Jesus said,
The father is greater than Jesus. And even so, although Jesus is the first born of creation, God has also engendered more sons of God. Anyone who has the spirit of God is also a son of God, being one with God, so its not really a trinity, its a family, as it shows:
And in Colossians we read:
Referring to Jesus as the firstborn of all creation, indicating he too was created.
And even Jesus said,
The father is greater than Jesus. And even so, although Jesus is the first born of creation, God has also engendered more sons of God. Anyone who has the spirit of God is also a son of God, being one with God, so its not really a trinity, its a family, as it shows:
And in Colossians we read:
Referring to Jesus as the firstborn of all creation, indicating he too was created.
Greetings cgaviria,
The statement above is false! First of all, to be God means to have no beginning and no end, self existing, that is, eternal. Therefore, Jesus could not be God in that respect and that because He would have had some starting point like the angels. In short, if you are a created being, you cannot be God.
Also, no created being could pay the penalty for sins, but God himself. Jesus is God in the flesh, not the Father, but another person of the Godhead. Before he took on flesh, he existed with the Father, having no beginning and no ending. The Jews recognized what Jesus was saying when he said, "Before Abraham was, I am," which is why they picked up stones to kill him and that because they understood that he was proclaiming to be thee God. The Jews would not have picked up stones to kill Jesus for being a created being.
Regarding the other topics on your list, your lack of belief that Jesus is God Almighty, the Sovereign Lord, makes the rest irrelevant, and that because you are believing in another Jesus, which cancels everything else out. I have much more to say regarding this, which I will address later.
The statement above is false! First of all, to be God means to have no beginning and no end, self existing, that is, eternal. Therefore, Jesus could not be God in that respect and that because He would have had some starting point like the angels. In short, if you are a created being, you cannot be God.
Also, no created being could pay the penalty for sins, but God himself. Jesus is God in the flesh, not the Father, but another person of the Godhead. Before he took on flesh, he existed with the Father, having no beginning and no ending. The Jews recognized what Jesus was saying when he said, "Before Abraham was, I am," which is why they picked up stones to kill him and that because they understood that he was proclaiming to be thee God. The Jews would not have picked up stones to kill Jesus for being a created being.
Regarding the other topics on your list, your lack of belief that Jesus is God Almighty, the Sovereign Lord, makes the rest irrelevant, and that because you are believing in another Jesus, which cancels everything else out. I have much more to say regarding this, which I will address later.
G
I was waiting for the ball to drop. Well, we can't say he didn't warn us. He told us in the New Christian Chat Members forum that he recently "encountered opposition" from another Bible forum which he then "abandoned" (was banned from??) their forum.
And is it me, or does his user name sound slightly familiar?
And is it me, or does his user name sound slightly familiar?
Given that this information is true, cgaviria, and you did in fact state that you "abandoned" the last Christian Forum you "encountered opposition" in, but you actually were banned...that would be a lie. And a sin. So according to your gospel, you aren't going to make the cut either.
If what you say is true, what a lonely, quiet place Heaven must be with God sitting up there all by Himself...
G
God and the angels are just sitting up there waiting for a bride that will never exist? Jesus Is preparing a place is His Father's mansion that has many rooms, for nobody? How about this scripture: Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. James 5:16
Do you suggest that this book of the Bible as well as the others that mention repentance and the confession of sins are written to UNSAVED people and that they are not meant to be applied to the lives of people that actually have the Spirit of God?
Do you suggest that this book of the Bible as well as the others that mention repentance and the confession of sins are written to UNSAVED people and that they are not meant to be applied to the lives of people that actually have the Spirit of God?
Does Colossians really say that?
Firstborn also has symbolic application in the Old Testament. it represents the one who inherits all things etc. but that aside lets take a look at what is said and see:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
What does this mean? well the very next verse tells us:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Answer: He is the firstborn because he made all things and he is before all things and he maintains all things. But the real clue to the nature of the use of "firstborn" is cleared up in what comes next:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Notice again Paul uses this term but this time in connection to raising from the dead. Quick question, Was Jesus the first to ever resurrect?
Answer: No He is not thus we see that Paul is using this term in a different sense than literal first born or first one. and ultimately he has first position in all things is the meaning because the firstborn in the old testament had the preeminence in the family so it is in this sense that Paul uses the term firstborn so that people would understand that all things are His.
And thus this lines up with:
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Firstborn also has symbolic application in the Old Testament. it represents the one who inherits all things etc. but that aside lets take a look at what is said and see:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
What does this mean? well the very next verse tells us:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Answer: He is the firstborn because he made all things and he is before all things and he maintains all things. But the real clue to the nature of the use of "firstborn" is cleared up in what comes next:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Notice again Paul uses this term but this time in connection to raising from the dead. Quick question, Was Jesus the first to ever resurrect?
Answer: No He is not thus we see that Paul is using this term in a different sense than literal first born or first one. and ultimately he has first position in all things is the meaning because the firstborn in the old testament had the preeminence in the family so it is in this sense that Paul uses the term firstborn so that people would understand that all things are His.
And thus this lines up with:
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
First of all, I am not denying the the Word was present with the Father at the beginning, and that through the Word all things were made. What I am saying is that BEFORE the beginning, it was only the Father. Jesus Christ did have a beginning, as it described in certain verses saying that he is the beginning, the first born, of creation. All things have been subjected to him and have been made through him. Before Abraham, I am, does not affirm that he is at the Father having no beginning, it is affirming that he is is self sufficient, as he even says,
The Father has granted him this. If he had always been, as you say, then why would he have need for the Father to grant him life in himself? Makes no sense.
And even so, just because Jesus was created does not deny that he is in fact God. He is the express image of the GOD HEAD. He is anointed by the Father and chosen by him. You have to understand something here, Jesus is a SON, and not just a son, but the first born son. What is a son? It is an image, meaning something lesser, reflecting something greater, in this case, the Father. Even Jesus says,
Jesus said it himself!
The Father has granted him this. If he had always been, as you say, then why would he have need for the Father to grant him life in himself? Makes no sense.
And even so, just because Jesus was created does not deny that he is in fact God. He is the express image of the GOD HEAD. He is anointed by the Father and chosen by him. You have to understand something here, Jesus is a SON, and not just a son, but the first born son. What is a son? It is an image, meaning something lesser, reflecting something greater, in this case, the Father. Even Jesus says,
Jesus said it himself!
woooowwww so you are the only one, huh? What about 1 John 1:8, you just kind of skipped over that one... Here, I'll re-post it for you: " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)
so you are the only one, huh? What about 1 John 1:8, you just kind of skipped over that one... Here, I'll re-post it for you: " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)
One thing often missed is the reality of Jesus becoming a man:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
The bolded means he emptied himself and became a servant. Before he was full and not a servant nor a man.
When it says:
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
It must be understood in those terms, Jesus the man who is emptied himself and become a servant. The one who was higher than angels but now is a little lower than the angels. Jesus willingly became a lesser but He did not start that way. He started as an equal to the Father.
What really gets things going is when you come to the realization that Jesus is YHWH of the Old Testament.
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
The bolded means he emptied himself and became a servant. Before he was full and not a servant nor a man.
When it says:
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
It must be understood in those terms, Jesus the man who is emptied himself and become a servant. The one who was higher than angels but now is a little lower than the angels. Jesus willingly became a lesser but He did not start that way. He started as an equal to the Father.
What really gets things going is when you come to the realization that Jesus is YHWH of the Old Testament.
I made this connection myself too, but I haven't been on here long enough to officially draw that conclusion, but I'm glad you did though, VioletReigns.
Given that this information is true, cgaviria, and you did in fact state that you "abandoned" the last Christian Forum you "encountered opposition" in, but you actually were banned...that would be a lie. And a sin. So according to your gospel, you aren't going to make the cut either.
If what you say is true, what a lonely, quiet place Heaven must be with God sitting up there all by Himself...
Given that this information is true, cgaviria, and you did in fact state that you "abandoned" the last Christian Forum you "encountered opposition" in, but you actually were banned...that would be a lie. And a sin. So according to your gospel, you aren't going to make the cut either.
If what you say is true, what a lonely, quiet place Heaven must be with God sitting up there all by Himself...
You're writing this as if I'm professing that I have no sins. On the contrary, I have many sins. I guarantee more than you. I was not a good person in the world. I am ashamed of it. And no one is clear of sins either, as it it said,
BUT, I do believe that in the receiving of the spirit, you are then CAUSED to SIN NO MORE, as it is written,
Even Jesus said,
These scriptures indicate the very essence of what having the holy spirit is, TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS, EMPOWERED BY GOD, NOT BY YOU, BUT BY GOD, BY HIS SPIRIT. Notice how even in this scripture in Ezekiel he even says I will REMOVE your heart of stone, and give you a HEART of flesh. What is the heart??????? it is the MIND. This is NOT a figure of speech. This is LITERAL. You are LITERALLY changed into a different person, able to follow after God and follow his commandments. And it is done By the Spirit of God. Having the Spirit of God is like a possession, but by God. Its so powerful, that even in the other verses we see evidence of what happens when one receives the Spirit:
This verse was talking about Saul when he was persecuting David. And we know Saul was an unrighteous man, even seeking after the guidance of mediums. And look what the Spirit did even when it sprang on him, he began prophesying!
So not just him, but his messengers too! Saul's change was so intense that this next verse follows:
Which is pretty much them saying, what the crap happened here???!!! Is Saul now a prophet??? They were shocked!
And here is another verse, showing the Saul was changed into another person because of the Spirit!
And also in the book of Acts in the early church we have,
So yes, I believe the Holy Spirit to be an enabler, the thing that CAUSES a man to follow after the commandments of God, and it comes with evident manifestation that you have indeed received it.
The firstborn is not just the one that inherits all things, it is also the one that is BORN FIRST, HENCE first born...... first born in the creation. So if anything, first born is DEFINITELY very indicative of Jesus Christ being BORN FIRST as a part of the creation, AND also, an inheritor of everything in creation.
Also, none of what you said has affirmed that Jesus has no beginning as the father. All things HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO HIM AND CREATED THROUGH HIM, AND HE IS INDEED THE HEAD OF THE BODY, YESSSSS.
And notice how you even quoted this:
If Jesus had no beginning, what would this scripture say he IS THE BEGINNING.
So I'm telling you, IN THE BEGINNING, the Word was created, and through the Word, were all things made. The Word was present in the very beginning, because it was made before all other things were made, and all other things were made through the Word.
Also, none of what you said has affirmed that Jesus has no beginning as the father. All things HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO HIM AND CREATED THROUGH HIM, AND HE IS INDEED THE HEAD OF THE BODY, YESSSSS.
And notice how you even quoted this:
If Jesus had no beginning, what would this scripture say he IS THE BEGINNING.
So I'm telling you, IN THE BEGINNING, the Word was created, and through the Word, were all things made. The Word was present in the very beginning, because it was made before all other things were made, and all other things were made through the Word.