House of Cornelius and the law

[redeemed2014]

-Acts 10:1 Introducing Cornelius.

• Cornelius was a Gentile

-Acts 10:9-16 Peter was given a vision.

• Acts 10:14/28 Shows that Peter was a law abiding Jew

-Acts 11:12 Six Jews went along with Peter to Caesarea.

• 6 Jews plus Peter = 7 Jews (Number of Completion)
• Cornelius was the 8th man (Number of New Beginnings)

-Acts 10:34 Peter starts his sermon to the house of Cornelius

• Whosoever believeth in Him shall recieve the remission of sins -- Acts 10:43

​
-Acts 10:44 Holy Ghost fell upon Cornelius while Peter yet spake

• Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

-Acts 10:48 Peter commanded them to be baptized

• Holy Ghost has already fell upon Cornelius

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

In Acts 11:3 we read that Peter had to defend his ministry to Cornelius because they were uncircumcised (gentile).

After studying the house of Cornelius how can some say that we still must do works/follow the law to gain salvation. Cornelius was a gentile not part of the abrahamic covenant, so he was not under the law and nowhere do we read that he was following the law. He was uncircumcised, unbaptized, and a sinner. We read in Acts 10:25 that Cornelius fell down at Peters feet and worshiped him, that makes him an idolater. Nowhere between the point of him worshiping Peter to the time that the Holy Ghost fell upon him did he repent of that sin. Cornelius was saved after hearing the Word and believing. At that point all he had to do was believe in who Jesus Christ was. This was the transitioning point from law to grace. After this Paul reveals the mystery of the secret by which we are saved.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

What was the gospel that Paul gave to us:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Believe in the death, burial, and Resurrection of our dear Lord. You cannot obtain salvation on your own the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, because we could not! This does not mean that we can run around like we live on skid row. The law is still perfect because it is the mind of God and he does not change, all scripture is for instruction in righteousness. But our righteousness's are as filthy rags, we can not count on our righteousness but only His!

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

He paid it all! please do not try to fight a fight that has already been won!

God Bless

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It's true that gentiles have never been under the law of Moses, but it's not true that all works are works of law. Grace doesn't preclude works, it precludes being justified by works. Once we have been justified by the lord's death, and been given new life through his resurrection, we are free from sin to do what the lord commands.

 

[BibleGuy]

It's true that gentiles have never been under the law of Moses, but it's not true that all works are works of law. Grace doesn't preclude works, it precludes being justified by works. Once we have been justified by the lord's death, and been given new life through his resurrection, we are free from sin to do what the lord commands.

Hi there!

You wrote: "It's true that gentiles have never been under the law of Moses..."

My response: Gentiles are not "under" the law in the technical sense Paul states in Rom. 6:15.

BUT, Gentile Christians SHOULD still grow in faithful obedience to the Torah.

Remember, in the same breath...what did Paul say? DON'T SIN (Rom. 6:15).

AND, sin is violation of Torah (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).

Thus, Paul taught Gentiles to NOT sin...which means NOT disobey Torah...which means OBEY Torah.

Right?

That's why Jesus applies Dt. 6 to us in Mt. 22:37...

How do we express this love for God? Through obedience to all commands of Torah (Dt. 6:25)...as Jesus commanded.

blessings...
Bibleguy

 

[Yonah]

Hi there!

You wrote: "It's true that gentiles have never been under the law of Moses..."

My response: Gentiles are not "under" the law in the technical sense Paul states in Rom. 6:15.

BUT, Gentile Christians SHOULD still grow in faithful obedience to the Torah.

Remember, in the same breath...what did Paul say? DON'T SIN (Rom. 6:15).

AND, sin is violation of Torah (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).

Thus, Paul taught Gentiles to NOT sin...which means NOT disobey Torah...which means OBEY Torah.

Right?

That's why Jesus applies Dt. 6 to us in Mt. 22:37...

How do we express this love for God? Through obedience to all commands of Torah (Dt. 6:25)...as Jesus commanded.

blessings...
Bibleguy

we are no longer gentiles if we be in the faith, Abraham was not a "Jew" yet he obeyed Torah,(gen. 26:5) the disciples kept the feast well after our Savior ascended to heaven, (18:21) (1cor. 8:5)

 

[crossnote]

Having died to the Law our obligation is no longer to the law but to Christ, yet if we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption.

 

[Grace777x70]

we are no longer gentiles if we be in the faith, Abraham was not a "Jew" yet he obeyed Torah,(gen. 26:5) the disciples kept the feast well after our Savior ascended to heaven, (18:21) (1cor. 8:5)

huh?

1 Corinthians 8:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

 

[VernonFrancis]

Cornelius and other Gentiles received the Holy Spirit by the grace of God. No one receives the Holy Spirit through obedience to the Law. We all receive the Holy Spirit through grace by believing God, just as Abraham did. The Law was given to condemn all humanity, it has no ability to save anyone. The Law can not be taken literally because Jesus corrected Moses on more than one occasion. The perfect will of God is revealed in Jesus Christ, as the scripture gives witness: 'the law came through Moses, grace and truth was revealed in Jesus Christ.

Any one placed under the law is condemned, only those placed under the grace of God are saved. This is a problem with many Christians today, they place themselves under grace and condemn others under the law. This is anathema, because we know that God desires for all to be saved. If you place any one under the law then you place yourself under the law.

just a thought.

 

[mpaper345]

The truth is all people regardless of race,or ethnic group,or nation,has to always follow God's moral laws,laws of love.

The Gentiles did not follow the law of Moses,the physical ordinances,and physical laws,but God's moral laws are universal,and have to be followed at all times,at every time,and never go away.

Creation testifies that there is a God,and of His attributes,which one of them is love,for He provided food,and the means to make clothes,and shelter,so we should love people,which love is the fulfilling of the law,and we know right from wrong.

Everybody is accountable to God for that information alone,and how the people that did not hear the word of God will be judged.

Abraham was justified by works,and that was works given by God,and the same rules apply today,we are justified by works,and that is works given by God.

We all agree we have to be led by the Spirit,and if we are led by the Spirit,we will do what God wants us to do,which we will abide by faith without works is dead,and not saved by faith alone,whether we believe not saved by works,or saved by works.

There is no arguing over not saved by works,and saved by works,for it is only led by the Spirit,or not led by the Spirit.

If you are led of the Spirit,you obviously have enough knowledge,and wisdom,of the word of God,what you need to know,even if you do not have all doctrine correct.

If someone believes not saved by works,and is led of the Spirit,and it is not correct,it did not go against them,and if they believe saved by works,and are led of the Spirit,and it is not correct,it did not go against them,which can they still be led of the Spirit,if they hold unto one,and it is incorrect,and if they can be led of the Spirit,then why fight over not saved by works,and saved by works,if all that matters is being led of the Spirit,for if you are led by the Spirit you will do what God wants,and be right with Him,no matter what position you take,for whatever position you take makes no difference,for you will do everything correct anyway,and will do works.

 

[redeemed2014]

we are no longer gentiles if we be in the faith, Abraham was not a "Jew" yet he obeyed Torah,(gen. 26:5) the disciples kept the feast well after our Savior ascended to heaven, (18:21) (1cor. 8:5)

I agree that Abraham was not a Jew (He was the father of the Jew) he was a Syrian, but May i ask how did Abraham obey the Torah or the law? It was not written at that point and time. That is much like saying the Abraham was saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christs death, burial, and Resurrection. He could not have because that had not happened.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

If at that time the law was not revealed it still belonged to the Lord and could not have belonged to Abraham.

 

[redeemed2014]

The truth is all people regardless of race,or ethnic group,or nation,has to always follow God's moral laws,laws of love.

The Gentiles did not follow the law of Moses,the physical ordinances,and physical laws,but God's moral laws are universal,and have to be followed at all times,at every time,and never go away.

Creation testifies that there is a God,and of His attributes,which one of them is love,for He provided food,and the means to make clothes,and shelter,so we should love people,which love is the fulfilling of the law,and we know right from wrong.

Everybody is accountable to God for that information alone,and how the people that did not hear the word of God will be judged.

Abraham was justified by works,and that was works given by God,and the same rules apply today,we are justified by works,and that is works given by God.

We all agree we have to be led by the Spirit,and if we are led by the Spirit,we will do what God wants us to do,which we will abide by faith without works is dead,and not saved by faith alone,whether we believe not saved by works,or saved by works.

There is no arguing over not saved by works,and saved by works,for it is only led by the Spirit,or not led by the Spirit.

If you are led of the Spirit,you obviously have enough knowledge,and wisdom,of the word of God,what you need to know,even if you do not have all doctrine correct.

If someone believes not saved by works,and is led of the Spirit,and it is not correct,it did not go against them,and if they believe saved by works,and are led of the Spirit,and it is not correct,it did not go against them,which can they still be led of the Spirit,if they hold unto one,and it is incorrect,and if they can be led of the Spirit,then why fight over not saved by works,and saved by works,if all that matters is being led of the Spirit,for if you are led by the Spirit you will do what God wants,and be right with Him,no matter what position you take,for whatever position you take makes no difference,for you will do everything correct anyway,and will do works.

Abraham was saved by believing God!

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

It does not say Abraham obeyed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness

Abraham disobeyed God by going into Egypt and telling them that Sarah was his sister. So then by theory of being saved by works he should be condemned because I have never found a verse saying he repented of this sin and got baptized.

 

[BibleGuy]

we are no longer gentiles if we be in the faith, Abraham was not a "Jew" yet he obeyed Torah,(gen. 26:5) the disciples kept the feast well after our Savior ascended to heaven, (18:21) (1cor. 8:5)

Hello Yonah,

Gentiles who are grafted into Israel are accepted as fellow Israelites (Dt. 29; Dt. 31; Is. 56; Eph. 2:12; Eph. 3:6; Rom. 11; I presume we agree on this?)

But, it's still ok to refer to such grafted-in Gentiles as Gentiles. For example, Paul still refers to the grafted-in Gentiles as "gentiles" (Gr. "ethnos") using the present tense in Rom. 11:13.

And yes...Abraham obeyed the Torah available to him (Ge. 26:5). (See "torah" in Ge. 26:5....but note it's actually plural).

But don't presume that Abraham obeyed Mosaic Torah! That would be anachronistic.

Remember, the Mosaic Torah Covenant was NOT made with Abraham (Dt. 5:3).

So Abraham (righteous by faith) also obeyed the Torah which was available to him.

Likewise, we in the Messiah are righteous by faith, and we should obey the Torah (Mosaic Torah) available to us.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Having died to the Law our obligation is no longer to the law but to Christ, yet if we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption.

AND, Christ points us straight back to the law!

1. The Torah is not abolished (Mt. 5:17).

2. The Torah-laden prophets are not abolished (Mt. 5:17).

3. Torah persists until after heaven/earth pass away (Mt. 5:18)...and this hasn't happened yet. (look outside...the earth is still here!)

4. Our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

5. Our Torah-obedient works of righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees (Mt. 5:20).

6. Religious people who are against Torah will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-23) or even worse (Mt. 13:41-42).

7. Jesus prayed we be sanctified by Torah (Jn. 17:17).

8. Jesus said we should love God (Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to us) by obeying all Torah commands (Dt. 6:25).

9. Our eternal life depends upon obedience to law (Lk. 10:25-28).

10. Jesus said we live by Torah (Mt. 4:4 referencing Dt. 8:3 which refers to Torah).

11. Jesus upheld the Psalms (Jn. 10:34-35) as Scripture which can NOT be broken. AND, the Psalms require Torah-obedience (Ps. 1; Ps. 19; Ps. 119; etc...)

12. Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant in which Torah is written upon our hearts (Jer. 31:33). That which is written upon our hearts should be obeyed (not ignored as if it no longer applies!) See Dt. 30:14 for confirmation.

13. The Spirit and flesh are contrasted (Rom. 8:6-7). The flesh can not obey God's law. Thus, the Spirit (by contrast) leads us to obey the law!


Let's get back to the law which Scripture requires we faithfully obey!

blessings...
Bibleguy

 

[BibleGuy]

huh?

1 Corinthians 8:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

Hi there Grace777x70,

Yonah was surely referring to 1 Cor. 5:8, where Paul COMMANDS us to keep Pesach.

By the way, this is another confirmation that Torah STILL APPLIES to us!

blessings...
Bibleguy

 

[Grace777x70]

The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good and holy! But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Col 2:13-15 is where in says that Christ "disarmed" satan having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and He nailed it to the cross.

Satan uses the law against us. Satan comes and says to you - you broke the law - you are condemned now according to the law. BUT our Lord took that punishment for breaking that law for us.

When Christ takes away the condemnation of the law which satan uses against when he accuses us - he is being "disarmed".

If disarmed means anything - it means he did have a weapon but now he doesn't because of our Lord. We are dead to the law. The law is still there for the unrighteous but we are the righteous in Christ. How great is our salvation in Him!

 

[BibleGuy]

Cornelius and other Gentiles received the Holy Spirit by the grace of God. No one receives the Holy Spirit through obedience to the Law. We all receive the Holy Spirit through grace by believing God, just as Abraham did. The Law was given to condemn all humanity, it has no ability to save anyone. The Law can not be taken literally because Jesus corrected Moses on more than one occasion. The perfect will of God is revealed in Jesus Christ, as the scripture gives witness: 'the law came through Moses, grace and truth was revealed in Jesus Christ.

Any one placed under the law is condemned, only those placed under the grace of God are saved. This is a problem with many Christians today, they place themselves under grace and condemn others under the law. This is anathema, because we know that God desires for all to be saved. If you place any one under the law then you place yourself under the law.

just a thought.

Hi there VernonFrancis,

I'd like to address your ideas.

You wrote: "The Law was given to condemn all humanity..."

My response: The law also defines sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4; Is. 42:24), and we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15). Thus we should NOT disobey Torah. Thus, we should OBEY Torah!

You wrote: "The Law can not be taken literally because Jesus corrected Moses on more than one occasion."

My response: No. If Jesus disobeyed or changed or corrected the Torah of Moses at any point, then Jesus would have sinned...would have been a sinner...would have been a false prophet...and could NOT be our sinless Messiah.

Jesus never corrected Moses!

Rather, Jesus said our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching will determine our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

And, Jesus said that eternal life depends upon Torah-obedience (Lk. 10:25-28).

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi there Grace777x70,

Yonah was surely referring to 1 Cor. 5:8, where Paul COMMANDS us to keep Pesach.

By the way, this is another confirmation that Torah STILL APPLIES to us!

blessings...
Bibleguy

Hi bibleguy...

We are no more to keep the feasts of the Old Covenant then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

Again, this is referring to the Passover meal. We don’t just observe this once a year, as they did in the Old Testament; we now live in a continual celebration of the death and resurrection of Jesus, which was symbolized in that feast.

We are supposed to live our lives each day in remembrance of what Jesus has done for us, and we are to live our lives without leaven, or sin, as depicted in the Old Testament feast of Passover.

If we don't look at scriptures in context we'll be conned. In context this is talking about the allegory of keeping the leaven out of our lives. Celebrate the feast is to celebrate all that Jesus has already done for us in His finished work.

Those Old Covenant are all shadows of the real substance which is Christ. We need t get into the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is now obsolete and is a goner! We have the life of Christ in us now if we are in fact in Christ.

Now we live by the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of love, the law of liberty is Christ, the law of faith and in short the law of Jesus in our hearts.

1 Corinthians 5:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

[SUP]7 [/SUP] Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;


Acts 15:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

 

[BibleGuy]

The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good and holy! But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Col 2:13-15 is where in says that Christ "disarmed" satan having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and He nailed it to the cross.

Satan uses the law against us. Satan comes and says to you - you broke the law - you are condemned now according to the law. BUT our Lord took that punishment for breaking that law for us.

When Christ takes away the condemnation of the law which satan uses against when he accuses us - he is being "disarmed".

If disarmed means anything - it means he did have a weapon but now he doesn't because of our Lord. We are dead to the law. The law is still there for the unrighteous but we are the righteous in Christ. How great is our salvation in Him!

Hello again!

Let's address these issues again...

1. We agree the law reveals sin (Rom. 3:20). But Paul also said we should NOT SIN! (Rom. 6:15). Thus, Paul taught that we should NOT disobey Torah. Thus we should OBEY Torah. Right?

2. Sure, the law leads us to Christ, but Christ leads us right back to the law! Remember? Eternal life depends upon our obedience to law (Lk. 10:25-28).

3. Our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

4. We agree the law is good. And we should be good. So we should obey (not disobey!) the law. Right?

5. We agree the law is holy. We should be holy. Thus we should obey the law. (For example, Peter applies Lev. 11 to us in 1 Pe 1:15-16). Right?

6. You wrote: "The purpose of the law was not for righteousness..."

My response: You have FLATLY contradicted Dt. 6:25....which Jesus applies to you in Mt. 22:37.

7. You wrote: "Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it."

My response: So then...do you obey the law or not? After all...you just said the law is NOT set aside.

8. You wrote: "Col 2:13-15 is where in says that Christ "disarmed" satan having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and He nailed it to the cross."

My response: Cancelled the CERTIFICATE OF DEBT....not cancelled the Torah itself. Remember, Paul tells us to keep God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

9. You wrote: "We are dead to the law."

My response: So we can disobey it all now? Of course not! Paul applies the law to us in Rom. 10:8 (applying Dt. 30:14 to us!).

Remember, the same Paul who said we are dead to the law (Rom. 7:4) just previously told us to NOT SIN (Rom. 6:15), which means do NOT DISOBEY THE LAW, because sin is violation of Torah (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).

10. You wrote: "The law is still there for the unrighteous but we are the righteous in Christ."

My response: Oh...so now we who are in Christ can ignore the law because it does not apply to us? Lev. 18:23 no longer applies? Yikes!

But you said the law is STILL THERE for the unrighteous.

Ouch! That means the unrighteous are NOT allowed to disobey Lev. 18:23 (because you said it is "still there" for them), but the righteous in Christ ARE allowed to disobey Lev. 18:23 (because it is not "still there" for the righteous)?

I'd say you REALLY need to revise your position...

It leads to quite obviously false implications.

Can you address these 10 objections to your position?

blessings...
Bibleguy

 

[Grace777x70]

Hello again!

Let's address these issues again...

1. We agree the law reveals sin (Rom. 3:20). But Paul also said we should NOT SIN! (Rom. 6:15). Thus, Paul taught that we should NOT disobey Torah. Thus we should OBEY Torah. Right?

2. Sure, the law leads us to Christ, but Christ leads us right back to the law! Remember? Eternal life depends upon our obedience to law (Lk. 10:25-28).

3. Our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

4. We agree the law is good. And we should be good. So we should obey (not disobey!) the law. Right?

5. We agree the law is holy. We should be holy. Thus we should obey the law. (For example, Peter applies Lev. 11 to us in 1 Pe 1:15-16). Right?

6. You wrote: "The purpose of the law was not for righteousness..."

My response: You have FLATLY contradicted Dt. 6:25....which Jesus applies to you in Mt. 22:37.

7. You wrote: "Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it."

My response: So then...do you obey the law or not? After all...you just said the law is NOT set aside.

8. You wrote: "Col 2:13-15 is where in says that Christ "disarmed" satan having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and He nailed it to the cross."

My response: Cancelled the CERTIFICATE OF DEBT....not cancelled the Torah itself. Remember, Paul tells us to keep God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

9. You wrote: "We are dead to the law."

My response: So we can disobey it all now? Of course not! Paul applies the law to us in Rom. 10:8 (applying Dt. 30:14 to us!).

Remember, the same Paul who said we are dead to the law (Rom. 7:4) just previously told us to NOT SIN (Rom. 6:15), which means do NOT DISOBEY THE LAW, because sin is violation of Torah (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).

10. You wrote: "The law is still there for the unrighteous but we are the righteous in Christ."

My response: Oh...so now we who are in Christ can ignore the law because it does not apply to us? Lev. 18:23 no longer applies? Yikes!

But you said the law is STILL THERE for the unrighteous.

Ouch! That means the unrighteous are NOT allowed to disobey Lev. 18:23 (because you said it is "still there" for them), but the righteous in Christ ARE allowed to disobey Lev. 18:23 (because it is not "still there" for the righteous)?

I'd say you REALLY need to revise your position...

It leads to quite obviously false implications.

Can you address these 10 objections to your position?

blessings...
Bibleguy

Hi again bibleguy,

These have been addressed in previous threads many times so it's going to be just fruitless again.

I posted it for the younger Christians that view these threads as I know you are part of a "law-keeper" religious belief system. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

We really need to see the New Covenant and that the Old was just a mere shadow and has been fulfilled in Christ. We need to understand the new birth in Christ in the creation of the new inner man in Christ.

We don't come to Christ so that we can go back to the law. That is completely backwards. The law was to lead us to Christ - the real thing and now we are dead to the law. The law of love in Christ now fulfills all the intent of the law.

Love will not lead us to do any ill-will to anyone.

The law is NOT made for the righteousness and to go back to the law for living is spiritual adultery as we are joined to another now - Christ our Lord. Again I post this video for those "in Christ" so that hey know they are not to keep the law but the life of our Lord inside of us by love does all the intent of the law.

It's only 11 minutes long...have a great rest of the long weekend!

[video=youtube;6bhZlQNCV7o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bhZlQNCV7o[/video]

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi bibleguy...

We are no more to keep the feasts of the Old Covenant then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

Again, this is referring to the Passover meal. We don’t just observe this once a year, as they did in the Old Testament; we now live in a continual celebration of the death and resurrection of Jesus, which was symbolized in that feast.

We are supposed to live our lives each day in remembrance of what Jesus has done for us, and we are to live our lives without leaven, or sin, as depicted in the Old Testament feast of Passover.

If we don't look at scriptures in context we'll be conned. In context this is talking about the allegory of keeping the leaven out of our lives. Celebrate the feast is to celebrate all that Jesus has already done for us in His finished work.

Those Old Covenant are all shadows of the real substance which is Christ. We need t get into the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is now obsolete and is a goner! We have the life of Christ in us now if we are in fact in Christ.

Now we live by the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of love, the law of liberty is Christ, the law of faith and in short the law of Jesus in our hearts.

1 Corinthians 5:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

[SUP]7 [/SUP] Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;


Acts 15:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

Hi Grace777x70,

1. You wrote: "We are no more to keep the feasts of the Old Covenant then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

Again, this is referring to the Passover meal. We don’t just observe this once a year, as they did in the Old Testament; we now live in a continual celebration of the death and resurrection of Jesus, which was symbolized in that feast."

My response: Pesach only occurs once per year. 1 Cor. 5:8 does NOT deny this.

Sure, celebrate the death/resurrection daily which is symbolized in the feast!

But that's no excuse to ignore Paul's COMMAND in 1 Cor. 5:8 to keep Pesach (which occurs ONCE per year).

Again, your theology contradicts Paul's command, even though it is mixed with a lot of truth as well.

2. You wrote: "...we are to live our lives without leaven, or sin..."

My response: I Got you! (with love....of course!) You just confessed that we should NOT sin. Sin is Torah-violation (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4; Is. 42:24). Therefore, you should NOT violate Torah. Therefore, you should OBEY Torah!

3. You wrote: "If we don't look at scriptures in context we'll be conned."

My response: Yes! That's why we must use Paul's definition of sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7) when interpreting Pauline texts. So, when Paul says we should not sin (Rom. 6:15), that means we should NOT disobey Torah!

4. You wrote: "Those Old Covenant are all shadows of the real substance which is Christ."

My response: Yes! They ARE (present tense) shadows...that's why they CONTINUE to function as shadows which continue to point to Christ.

5. You wrote: "We need to get into the New Covenant."

My response: Yes again! And what is written upon our hearts in the New Covenant? TORAH! (Jer. 31:33). Thus, we should obey that which is written upon our heart (Dt. 30:14), not disobey it!

6. You wrote: "The Old Covenant is now obsolete and is a goner!"

My response: No...I think I've already shown you that although it's obsolete, it is NOT yet passed away (Heb. 8:13). Remember? It is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to pass away. This confirms that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews. Remember?

7. You wrote: "Now we live by the spirit of life in Christ Jesus."

My response: Yes! And the spirit and flesh are contrasted (Rom. 8:6-7). The flesh can NOT obey the law (Rom. 8:7). Thus, the Spirit (by contrast) leads us to obey the law.

Remember, the Spirit testifies that Torah is WRITTEN UPON OUR HEARTS (Heb. 10:15-17), not rendered inapplicable!

8. You wrote: "We live...by the law of love."

My response: And Jesus says our eternal life depends upon our obedience to this love (Lk. 10:25-28 applies Dt. 6 to those who seek eternal life...and Dt. 6:25 requires obedience to all commands of Torah as an expression of this love).

9. You wrote: "We live...by the law of faith."

My response: Yes again! But faith (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 3:11) is faithfulness (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4). And what is this way of "emunah" by which Paul says we live? Psalms 119 tell us! TORAH! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30, 86, 138 for confirmation)

10. You quoted Acts 15:10.

My response: Context, remember! Ac. 15:10 is not criticizing the Christian obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the Torah-laden covenants in which they participate. Rather, it is criticizing those who require circumcision AND Torah-obedience as a condition of recognizing Gentiles as having been SAVED (Gr. "sodzo", Ac. 15:1,11).

So let's not pretend that Ac. 15:10 supports your position, when in fact, Paul (who was present at the Jerusalem Council in Ac. 15) is one of the very sources I've used to show that your position is incorrect.

Can you answer these additional 10 objections to your position?

blessings to you...
Bibleguy

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi again bibleguy,

These have been addressed in previous threads many times so it's going to be just fruitless again.

I posted it for the younger Christians that view these threads as I know you are part of a "law-keeper" religious belief system. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

We really need to see the New Covenant and that the Old was just a mere shadow and has been fulfilled in Christ. We need to understand the new birth in Christ in the creation of the new inner man in Christ.

We don't come to Christ so that we can go back to the law. That is completely backwards. The law was to lead us to Christ - the real thing and now we are dead to the law. The law of love in Christ now fulfills all the intent of the law.

Love will not lead us to do any ill-will to anyone.

The law is NOT made for the righteousness and to go back to the law for living is spiritual adultery as we are joined to another now - Christ our Lord. Again I post this video for those "in Christ" so that hey know they are not to keep the law but the life of our Lord inside of us by love does all the intent of the law.

It's only 11 minutes long...have a great rest of the long weekend!

[video=youtube;6bhZlQNCV7o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bhZlQNCV7o[/video]

Hey there Grace777x70,

Yes...you have a good weekend too!

But, I must say...I've earnestly made effort to address every point you've raised.

AND, you've now failed to address several dozen objections I've raised against your position.

So, if our conversation is fruitless, then it's because you refuse to learn through answering the objections I've raised.

You wrote: "I posted it for the younger Christians that view these threads..."

My response: Why would you want to post a theological viewpoint that you can not even defend in light of the dozens of Scripturally-grounded objections I've raised?

That doesn't make sense...

Wouldn't it be better to actually learn how to defend your position better?

And if you can not...then why hold onto a system you can not even defend?

You wrote: 'We don't come to Christ so that we can go back to the law. That is completely backwards. The law was to lead us to Christ - the real thing and now we are dead to the law. The law of love in Christ now fulfills all the intent of the law."

My response: So you simply ignore and dismiss the DOZENS of Scriptures I've already raised which immediately contradict this claim? (And I could bring forth HUNDREDS more...but I now see you don't want to learn...)

Yikes!

I know someone who told me once: "My mind is already made up...please do NOT confuse me with the facts."

Yes...they really told me this!

Sadly...you appear to exemplify this same sentiment...

This is NOT a truth-seeking attitude...

:-(

If you're simply too busy, then fine, I understand.

Deal with the Scriptural truths I've raised as time permits you.

But simply ignore them and walk away, continuing to "inform" younger Christians about your beliefs which you have not even substantiated?

Ouch...this is disappointing...

I love you too much to let you off the hook this easily!

And for the sake of those "younger Christians" who might be encouraged to disobey laws (which you erroneously think do not apply to us), I must persevere yet more with you.

I'll try again...

===========>>>>> Does Lev. 18:23 apply to you, or not? <<<<<===============

best...
BibleGuy