Hello JGIG,
Thanks for writing...
Let's take a look at your comments...lots of issues (24 in fact) on the table right now!
1. You wrote: "Torah has not ceased to exist. As a functioning, valid covenant, however, it is obsolete in Christ and His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent, High Priesthood. "
My response: Obsolete (Gr. verb "palaioo") but NOT yet passed away! Read again (Heb. 8:13), where it is merely READY (Gr. "engoos") to pass away, confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
Therefore, Torah is still in force, even during the New Covenant era, just as the remainder of Scripture also confirms.
2. You wrote: "Those who are in Christ are dead to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6)."
My response: Keep reading! The law defines sin (Rom. 7:7; also Rom. 3:20; 1 Jn. 3:4). And Paul said we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15). Thus we should NOT disobey Torah. Thus we should OBEY Torah!
3. You wrote: "Christ (of the Tribe of Judah) has been appointed as the Perfect Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant by an oath from God, replacing the Levitical priesthood, again, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete."
My response: Learn from the prophets! Christ comes to RESTORE the Levitical priesthood so that it will be pleasing to YHVH as in former years (Mal. 3).
Moses (Dt. 30:1-8), Ezekiel (Eze. 40-47), Isaiah (Is. 66:21-23), Zechariah (Zec. 14:16-21), Jeremiah (Jer. 33:17-22) likewise GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical Torah.
So let's stop misleading others by claiming the Levitical priesthood was replaced.
4. You wrote: "Have you achieved perfection yet?
Because that is the standard that Jesus sets forth in Matthew 5. Be ye perfect as God in heaven is perfect. If you don't achieve that standard, well, your own doctrine condemns you."
My response: Do YOU obey Matthew 5:48? Please learn from it.
MATTHEW 5:48 Jesus clearly views Pentateuchal Scripture as authoritative and applicable to Christians, as evidenced by His use of Ge. 1:27, Ex. 3:6, Ex. 20:12, Ex. 21:17, Lev. 19:18, Lev. 20:9, Nu. 21:9, Dt. 5:16, Dt. 6:4-5, Dt. 6:13, Dt. 6:16, Dt. 8:3, Dt. 10:20, and Dt. 19:15. Deuteronomy 18:13 shows that people should be blameless/complete/perfect (Heb. “tamim”, LXX “teleios”). Jesus also explicitly affirms that people should be perfect (Gr. “teleios”, Mt. 5:48). People who are “tamim” walk in obedience to the Torah (Ps. 19:7; Ps. 119:1). It follows that Jesus accepts that Christians should walk in obedience to the Torah.
5. You wrote: “Nope. They don't come close to your interpretation.”
My response: What? Read again! Jesus sends religious people AWAY from Him…why? Because they exemplify LAWLESSNESS (Gr. “anomia”, Mt. 7:21-23). The punishment for “anomia” is very severe in Mt. 13:41-42 as well.
So why do you oppose the law, claiming Levitical Torah is replaced?
Please, I don’t want you to be guilty of “anomia”. Stop opposing Scriptural teaching regarding Levitical Torah.
6. You wrote: “Logos refers to the Living Word, Christ, Who is God incarnate, not to Torah, which is merely part of the written Scriptures (
G1124 - graphē).”
My response: Jesus equates God’s word (Gr. “logos”, Mk. 7:13) with Torah (Mk. 7:9). So, when Jesus refers to YOUR WORD (when praying to God, Jn. 17:17), He is referring that which INCLUDES Torah (per Jesus’ own use of “logos” in, for example, Mk. 7:9-13).
So let’s not pretend that God’s “word” in Jn. 17:17 somehow excludes Torah.
Let’s not oppose Jesus’ OWN usage of the term “logos”. Jesus uses “logos” to refer to Torah.
Moreover, Jesus says the Psalms are Scripture (Gr. “graphe”, Jn. 10:34-35) which cannot be broken. And, Psalms require Torah (Ps. 1; Ps. 19; Ps. 119). And Torah requires Levitical sacrificial activity.
So again, we have found Jesus AFFIRMING the perpetuity (not replacement!) of Levitical Torah.
7. You wrote: “Obeying every commandment that applies to you 100% of the time? That is the standard that Jesus sets forth, yes?”
My response: You now agree Jesus taught us to obey all applicable and properly observable Torah? Good!
8. You wrote: “Tell us, how were the recent festivities in Jerusalem this past April? I hear it's lovely there this time of year! Did you bring your sacrifice to Jerusalem?”
My response: Why presuppose Levitical/sacrificial/ceremonial Torah is presently observable during this present diaspora?
Have you not read that ALL Torah commands will be observed only AFTER we again return to the land? (Dt. 30:1-8).
Thus we first return to YHVH in obedience to Torah commands (Dt. 30:2), then we return to the land (Dt. 30:5), and THEN we can again fully obey 100% of Torah.
So, obey all Torah that you can right now! Prepare to obey ALL Torah in the future! (Just as Moses prophesied.)
9. You wrote: “If Torah Law is still in force, there must be an active Levitial Priesthood through whom you can present your sacrifices and offerings to God, yes? It's not like Levites can't be located today…”
My response: No…Moses said we will return to obey Torah (Dt. 30:2), but not ALL Torah (Dt. 30:8) until after we return to the LAND (Dt. 30:5).
Let’s get that order really clear in our minds.
And we both know that there is no functioning tabernacle, presently, in Jerusalem…so we both know that Levitical/sacrificial/ceremonial Torah is not presently observed/observable.
But that’s no excuse to oppose the abundance of Scriptures which confirm the forthcoming restoration of this Levitical Torah.
And, that’s no excuse to NOT obey Torah portions which ARE presently observable!
10. You wrote: “Again, you err in assigning 'Torah' where a living expression of God's Word is defined:
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (from Mt. 4)
The Greek for 'word' in that verse is
G4487 - rhēma, which is the living voice, or word, of God, not the Torah, or 'graphe' of God, which is part of the written Scriptures (see above).”
My response: You are wrong. The term “rhema” is straight out of Dt. 8:3 (which Jesus was quoting!). Read it in the LXX, and you’ll see! The LXX uses “rhema” (Dt. 8:3) to refer to that which comes from YHVH’s mouth. This is TORAH!
And, there is nothing in Jn. 5:39 that says that “rhema” cannot be used to refer to Torah.
Yikes!
Please correct your error.
Jesus quotes Dt. 8:3 (Mt. 4:4) referring to TORAH…this is how we LIVE, according to Jesus.
Why would you oppose the Torah by which Jesus said we live?
11. You wrote: “And what were they not believing?
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered,
“The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (from Jn. 6)”
My response: AND! If we believe in Jesus, then we should OBEY His teachings.
AND, what did Jesus teach?
That our eternal life depends upon obedience to Torah! (Lk. 10:25-28).
That our position in the coming kingdom depends upon our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience (Mt. 5:19).
That those who oppose Torah (exemplifying “anomia”, lawlessness) will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-23; 13:41-42).
So yes! Please BELIEVE even in the teachings of this Messiah Jesus, Whom God has sent, Who comes to RESTORE even the Levitical priesthood (Mal. 3).
STOP opposing the restoration which our Messiah comes to bring forth.
12. You wrote: “The Psalms require obedience to the covenant in force at the time.”
My response: Jesus said the Psalms CANNOT be set aside. Thus, the Torah-obedient Psalms are STILL in force.
Thus, I use the Torah-obedient Psalms to ADMONISH (Gr. “nutheteo”) you to obey the Torah of those very Psalms, just as Paul requires (Col. 3:16).
And, Heb. 8:13 confirms that Torah persists even during the New Covenant Era.
AND, Jer. 31:33 has TORAH passing directly into the New Covenant.
So, even if you want to (wrongly) pretend that the Mosaic Covenant is no longer in force…the TORAH of that covenant still passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33). Thus, you still have not justified your opposition to the Levitical Torah which passes directly into the New Covenant Torah, per Jer. 31:33.
13. You wrote: “The instructions about how to enter into and stay in covenant with God are quite different from the Abrahamic to the Sinaitic to the New Covenants.”
My response: All the covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12) are still in force. No Torah from any of the covenants has been terminated. We participate in these covenants. Thus, we OBEY the Torah of the covenants in which we participate.
14. You wrote: “After the Cross, the New Covenant, ratified by the Blood of Christ, God Himself in the flesh, is in effect, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete, and is entered into by faith and maintained by our Perfect, Permanent High Priest, Christ Jesus.”
My response: Obsolete…but NOT yet passed away. It is only READY (Gr. “engoos”, Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
15. You wrote: “The New Covenant is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant…”
My response: Yes…but NOT a termination of the Abrahamic Covenant.
AND, have you not read that the Abrahamic Covenant is to be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION with obedience to the Torah of the Mosaic Covenant? (Dt. 6:10).
Therefore, our participation in the Abrahamic Covenant REQUIRES our participation in the Mosaic Covenant (per Dt. 6:10) as well.
16. You wrote: “The entire letter to the Hebrews clarifies and instructs on both the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ (based on better promises) and the obsolescence of the Old Covenant.”
My response: Careful! You keep making this same mistake…
The Old Covenant is obsolete…but NOT yet passed away. It is only READY (Gr. “engoos”, Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
17. You wrote: “Torah, God's instructions before the Cross, were given to Israel at Sinai in the form of the Law.”
My response: And all Christians are included as fellow Israelites who partake in all the covenants between YHVH and Israel. Thus, all Christians should OBEY the Torah of these covenants in which they participate.
Moreover, AFTER the cross, the Apostles and Epistles continue to uphold and affirm our need to obey Mosaic Torah (e.g., 1 Cor. 7:19; 1 Jn. 5:3).
18. You wrote: “Torah, God's instructions after the Cross, were given to all mankind by Christ: Believe on the One God sent and love one another.”
My response: AND, the One God sent COMMANDED that we make disciples of all nations in OBEDIENCE to all of Jesus’ PRE-CROSS TEACHINGS! (Mt. 28:20).
Thus, will you obey Lk. 10:25-28? Jesus says Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life, applying Dt. 6 to YOU (see also Mt. 22:37).
HOW is this love for God to be expressed? In obedience to ALL Torah commands (Dt. 6;25), just as Jesus commanded that we obey and teach others to do likewise.
19. You wrote: “Do you live before or after the Work of Christ?”
My response: Nice try! But Jesus COMMANDED that all of His PRE-CROSS teachings be commanded to disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20).
So, all of Jesus’ Torah-teachings remain IN FORCE.
Jesus taught OBEDIENCE to Mosaic judgments (Mt 23:2-3).
Jesus taught OBEDIENCE to greater and lesser Torah portions (Mt. 23:23).
Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Mt. 23:34, Gr. “grammateus”) to properly represent His ministry.
Torah-teachers do NOT teach termination of the Levitical Torah which Jesus comes to restore!
So please…convert to proper Torah-obedient ministry, consistent with the Torah-obedient ministry which our Messiah authorizes in Mt. 23:34.
20. You wrote: “The whole of Romans 8 does not support your assertion.”
My response: No! The way of the “flesh” and “spirit” are contrasted (Rom. 8:5-9).
The flesh cannot obey Torah (Rom. 8:7).
Therefore, by contrast, the way of the Spirit is to OBEY Torah.
Remember! The Spirit testifies that Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-17), not terminated and abolished and no longer applicable!
That Torah which is upon our hearts should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14). Paul agrees (citing Dt. 30:14 FAVORABLY at Rom. 10:8).
21. You wrote: “Galatians 5 clearly tells us that your assertion is in error, for if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18).”
My response: No! Paul criticizes the Galatians because they seek justification by law without faith (Gal. 5:4-5).
That’s NOT my position!
Thus, you have not even understood my position.
Moreover, when Paul says we are not “under law” (Rom. 6:15), he also says we should NOT sin!
What is sin? Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).
Thus, even though we are not “under the law” in the technical sense Paul discusses, we should nevertheless still NOT sin, which means NOT disobey Torah, which means OBEY TORAH!
So let’s obey Torah in faith…just as Paul taught us to do…and just as Paul modeled in his own life.
22. You wrote: “Those who are in Christ and go back to the Law walk in Spiritual adultery, having died to the Law in order to be joined to Christ…”
My response: Careful! Paul criticizes FAITHLESS Torah-obedience…not FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.
Moreover, you’ve got the “spiritual adultery” concept backwards. Spiritual adultery (Heb. “zanah”, e.g., Ex. 34:15-16) refers to those who walk away from YHVH and follows the ways of other (false) gods.
Spiritual adultery is NOT obeying the Torah which is commanded by the Father, Son, Spirit, Torah, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, and Epistles!
I never said anyone should go “back to the law” without Christ. Of course that would be bad.
23. You wrote: “So you're teaching folks to go back to that which stirs up sin and bears fruit unto death, when those in Christ have been released from the Law so that we serve in the NEW WAY of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”
My response: No! I’m teaching people to obey the Torah commanded by the Father, Son, Spirit, Torah, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, and Epistles! This includes the Torah of Moses.
Now, law WITHOUT FAITH stirs up sin and bears fruit unto death.
But now, with faith in the Messiah, we are free from the sin which bears fruit unto death.
Is that an excuse to oppose the very Torah which Jesus applies to us (Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to us)?
Of course not…
We serve in newness of the Spirit…
And what does this Spirit testify? That Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-17), NOT abolished or terminated or no longer applicable!
That which is upon our hearts should be OBEYED, not ignored as if no longer in force.
24. Do you teach people to OBEY or DISOBEY Lev. 18:23?
If OBEY, then Torah still applies to us.
If DISOBEY, then we've got some SERIOUS problems here…
Which horn of this dilemma will you take?
CONCLUSION: Will you continue to defend your position in light of the two dozen objections I’ve raised against it?
If not, then I urge you to embrace the Torah-obedient faith to which we are called as fellow Israelite participants in the many Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel, just as the Biblical Scriptures declare.
Blessings…
BibleGuy
