144,000 all tribes, 24 elders

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Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,179
113
#1
Some things in the book of revelation are hard to understand. So I thought I would ask here.

Am wondering whether the tribes listed in revelation 7 and again mentioned in revelation 14 are all the old testament saints? Or are they particular group at the time of Jesus. Or...are they an end-times group.
And who would the 24 elders be...would they be all the godly elders before Israel, like Isaac, Abraham, Noah, Enoch...?

What are your thoughts and what does scripture say about who these people are, as they arent really named. All I know is there's 12,000 sealed from each tribe. What is the seal of the living God? Are these seals the same as the seven seals the lamb opens? Who are the first fruits?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,721
13,097
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#2
Am wondering whether the tribes listed in revelation 7 and again mentioned in revelation 14 are all the old testament saints?
No they are not. As you can see those are exactly 12,000 redeemed Israelites out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel, and they are saved during the Tribulation (future).

As for the 24 elders, it would appear that these have been selected out of all the elders of all the churches, because of their faithful service and their adherence to Bible truth.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,481
3,523
113
#3
Some things in the book of revelation are hard to understand. So I thought I would ask here.

Am wondering whether the tribes listed in revelation 7 and again mentioned in revelation 14 are all the old testament saints? Or are they particular group at the time of Jesus. Or...are they an end-times group.
And who would the 24 elders be...would they be all the godly elders before Israel, like Isaac, Abraham, Noah, Enoch...?

What are your thoughts and what does scripture say about who these people are, as they arent really named. All I know is there's 12,000 sealed from each tribe. What is the seal of the living God? Are these seals the same as the seven seals the lamb opens? Who are the first fruits?
They are decendants of Jacob 12,000 from each tribe.. In the passage it actually identifies them as innocents none of whom had known a woman.. I believe they are innocent little ones.. decendants of the 12 tribes who will be living at the time of the return of the LORD Jesus Christ.. So God will Redeem a Remnant who will then form the core population that will go into the millenium as citizens of the 1000 years Jesus ruled Kingdom on earth..

Revelation 14: KJV
1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. {2} And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: {3} And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. {4} These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Isaiah 37: KJV
31 "And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward: {32} For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this."

Joel 2: KJV
31 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. {32} And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#4
They are decendants of Jacob 12,000 from each tribe.. In the passage it actually identifies them as innocents none of whom had known a woman.. I believe they are innocent little ones.. decendants of the 12 tribes who will be living at the time of the return of the LORD Jesus Christ.. So God will Redeem a Remnant who will then form the core population that will go into the millenium as citizens of the 1000 years Jesus ruled Kingdom on earth..

Revelation 14: KJV
1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. {2} And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: {3} And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. {4} These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Isaiah 37: KJV
31 "And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward: {32} For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this."

Joel 2: KJV
31 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. {32} And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
They are all males, so how can they re-populate the world?
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#5
Some things in the book of revelation are hard to understand. So I thought I would ask here.

Am wondering whether the tribes listed in revelation 7 and again mentioned in revelation 14 are all the old testament saints? Or are they particular group at the time of Jesus. Or...are they an end-times group.
And who would the 24 elders be...would they be all the godly elders before Israel, like Isaac, Abraham, Noah, Enoch...?

What are your thoughts and what does scripture say about who these people are, as they arent really named. All I know is there's 12,000 sealed from each tribe. What is the seal of the living God? Are these seals the same as the seven seals the lamb opens? Who are the first fruits?
All we can do is look at all the info given, but to say definitely would only be speculation.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,481
3,523
113
#6
They are all males, so how can they re-populate the world?
Well they will be populating the Kingdom which will not be all the world.. And i do not know for sure but i assume they will obtain wives from the nations that remain..

Zechariah 14: KJV
16 "¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. {17} And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#8
and they are saved during the Tribulation (future).

As for the 24 elders, it would appear that these have been selected out of all the elders of all the churches, because of their faithful service and their adherence to Bible truth.
Just speculation that can not be proven with Scripture.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#9
There are many future events that we will not understand until they come to be.
Much speculation and arguing takes place about such events that is a waste of time.
Understand what the Scriptures tells us about the 144,000 and leave the speculation and opinions out of the conversation.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,179
113
#10
Does the Bible ever refer to the 12,000 from each tribe...anywhere else? Why that specific number. Are they all priests? Obviously would belong to Israel because they are named tribes. None of us gentiles belong to those tribes because we are not direct descendants of any of the patriarchs. IN Romans Paul refers to a remnant, and he says he is from the tribe of Benjamin.

I dont believe studying the Bible is a waste of time ever.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#11
Does the Bible ever refer to the 12,000 from each tribe...anywhere else? Why that specific number. Are they all priests? Obviously would belong to Israel because they are named tribes. None of us gentiles belong to those tribes because we are not direct descendants of any of the patriarchs. IN Romans Paul refers to a remnant, and he says he is from the tribe of Benjamin.

I dont believe studying the Bible is a waste of time ever.
Studying the Scripture is the most important thing you can do with your time.
The 144,000 are only mentioned in Revelation, and very little is revealed.
The questions you ask just can not be answered.
All that we know is what is revealed in Revelation.
There are many subjects that much is revealed, but it will take a lot of time and effort to search it out.
I woud move on from the 144,000 and search the Scripture on other subjects.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,721
13,097
113
#12
Just speculation that can not be proven with Scripture.
Why is it "speculation" to identify elders as elders? If God calls them elders, then they are indeed elders. As to "proven with Scripture" elders are given a grave responsibility by Christ.

ACTS 20
17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church...
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

1 PETER 5
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


But too many elders have failed to do what they were called to do. Therefore out of the thousands of elders who had been delegated responsibility, there will be just a few who were totally committed to their calling. It is God who will decide as to who will be those 24 elders. 24 = 12 x 2, and 12 is the number of divine government. These elders will have a major governing role in the eternal Kingdom of God (hence their thrones), just like the 12 apostles of the Lamb will have 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,748
3,558
113
#13
Some things in the book of revelation are hard to understand. So I thought I would ask here.

Am wondering whether the tribes listed in revelation 7 and again mentioned in revelation 14 are all the old testament saints? Or are they particular group at the time of Jesus. Or...are they an end-times group.
And who would the 24 elders be...would they be all the godly elders before Israel, like Isaac, Abraham, Noah, Enoch...?

What are your thoughts and what does scripture say about who these people are, as they arent really named. All I know is there's 12,000 sealed from each tribe. What is the seal of the living God? Are these seals the same as the seven seals the lamb opens? Who are the first fruits?
Does the Bible ever refer to the 12,000 from each tribe...anywhere else? Why that specific number. Are they all priests? Obviously would belong to Israel because they are named tribes. None of us gentiles belong to those tribes because we are not direct descendants of any of the patriarchs. IN Romans Paul refers to a remnant, and he says he is from the tribe of Benjamin.

I dont believe studying the Bible is a waste of time ever.
Studying the Scripture is the most important thing you can do with your time.
The 144,000 are only mentioned in Revelation, and very little is revealed.
The questions you ask just can not be answered.
All that we know is what is revealed in Revelation.
There are many subjects that much is revealed, but it will take a lot of time and effort to search it out.
I woud move on from the 144,000 and search the Scripture on other subjects.
@dcontroversal - has an excellent theory on the 144,000 that I hope he will share with all of us again! He may very well, be correct! :)(y)
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#14
Why is it "speculation" to identify elders as elders? If God calls them elders, then they are indeed elders. As to "proven with Scripture" elders are given a grave responsibility by Christ.

ACTS 20
17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church...
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

1 PETER 5
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


But too many elders have failed to do what they were called to do. Therefore out of the thousands of elders who had been delegated responsibility, there will be just a few who were totally committed to their calling. It is God who will decide as to who will be those 24 elders. 24 = 12 x 2, and 12 is the number of divine government. These elders will have a major governing role in the eternal Kingdom of God (hence their thrones), just like the 12 apostles of the Lamb will have 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel.
I agree with what you have stated here-------
But to name the Elders would only be speculation and to identify the 144,000 as redeemed Israelites saved during the tribulation is nothing more that speculation.
We know what the Scriptures says and nothing more, so why try to give our opinion as fact when there is no Scripture that supports it.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#15
@dcontroversal - has an excellent theory on the 144,000 that I hope he will share with all of us again! He may very well, be correct! :)(y)
I have read his THEORY and will say he does not present it as FACT, but what he believes.
Many would do well to follow his example on this subject.
While I see some merit in his theory, I find it hard to believe exactly 12,000 were killed from each tribe.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,748
3,558
113
#16
I have read his THEORY and will say he does not present it as FACT, but what he believes.
Many would do well to follow his example on this subject.
While I see some merit in his theory, I find it hard to believe exactly 12,000 were killed from each tribe.
Hello SpoonJuly,

Where did you find dc's theory on the 144,000? I would like to find it and read it again. :)(y)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,721
13,097
113
#17
But to name the Elders would only be speculation and to identify the 144,000 as redeemed Israelites saved during the tribulation is nothing more that speculation.
No one is naming any elders. However, it is perfectly clear from Revelation that the 144,000 Israelites are saved during the Tribulation, and also raptured to Heaven.

REVELATION 7
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[tribulation]
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


REVELATION 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads...
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders...
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
#18
The 144K is a number representing the first Christians belonging to the 12 tribes.

(Rev 14:3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one was able to learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.)

(Rev 14:4 . . . . . These were redeemed from humanity as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.)

James addresses him letter to the 12 tribes:

(James 1:1 From James, a slave of God and the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes dispersed abroad. Greetings!)

(James 1:18 By his sovereign plan he gave us birth through the message of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. )

To place the firstfruits beyond the early church would make the 144K latter fruits not firstfruits.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#19
No one is naming any elders. However, it is perfectly clear from Revelation that the 144,000 Israelites are saved during the Tribulation, and also raptured to Heaven.

REVELATION 7
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[tribulation]
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


REVELATION 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads...
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders...
I feel sorry for the ladies seeing only virgin males are saved.

You are reading into Scripture what you want it to say, not what it says.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#20
No one is naming any elders. However, it is perfectly clear from Revelation that the 144,000 Israelites are saved during the Tribulation, and also raptured to Heaven.

REVELATION 7
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[tribulation]
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


REVELATION 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads...
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders...
I feel sorry for the ladies seeing only virgin males are saved.

You are reading into Scripture what you want it to say, not what it says.
Hello SpoonJuly,

Where did you find dc's theory on the 144,000? I would like to find it and read it again. :)(y)
Don't know.
Probably in one of the end time, rapture threads.