144,000 all tribes, 24 elders

[Nehemiah6]

Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled long ago when Messiah came and went, and the second temple was destroyed by Titus.

If indeed this was the case then this earth would resemble the New Earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness": No sin, no evil, no wickedness, no crimes, no Satan, no evil angels, no demons, no poverty, no wars, no prisons, no criminals, no jihadists, nothing even remotely like what we see and hear about daily.

Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled only unto the crucifixion of Christ (AD 30), when Messiah was cut off, but not for Himself (Isaiah 53).

And here is why Daniel's 70th week is still in the future, since nothing prophesied in this verse (Dan 9:24) has actually been accomplished:
Seventy weeks [490 years] are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
[1] to finish the transgression, and
[2] to make an end of sins, and
[3] to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
[4] to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
[5] to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
[6] to anoint the most Holy.

483 years have been fulfilled. Seven years remain to be fulfilled in the future. And only long AFTER that will we see an end of sins and everlasting righteousness on earth.

 

[Lanolin]

If its still future, then the people living in israel ought to know what tribe they are in...do they really know or is it they are all from the tribe of Judah, with the current state, being over 80 percent Jewish. As far as I know they havent apportioned the land out to the different tribes like how they were meant to. But then I don't live there so, I wouldnt know if they have done this or not.

Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, being born in Judea. But I dont know if the Israelis now being born into the land have divide it up or choose where they live, or if they remember all their geneaology, after they had been exiled. Wouldnt it go by their last name. I've known people with the surname Asher, and Levi, but havent really come across any of the other names. I've heard some tribes were lost, the lost 10 tribes of Israel, the other two tribes stayed in the land and these were Judah and Benjamin.

 

[Lafftur]

If its still future, then the people living in israel ought to know what tribe they are in...do they really know or is it they are all from the tribe of Judah, with the current state, being over 80 percent Jewish. As far as I know they havent apportioned the land out to the different tribes like how they were meant to. But then I don't live there so, I wouldnt know if they have done this or not.

Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, being born in Judea. But I dont know if the Israelis now being born into the land have divide it up or choose where they live, or if they remember all their geneaology, after they had been exiled. Wouldnt it go by their last name. I've known people with the surname Asher, and Levi, but havent really come across any of the other names. I've heard some tribes were lost, the lost 10 tribes of Israel, the other two tribes stayed in the land and these were Judah and Benjamin.

Lanolin,

You're asking great questions and I bet @Ahwatukee or @dcontroversal can give you the historical information that you are asking for.......

Be patient, they will answer you...... we will all learn together.....

 

[Bevosnz]

143,999 is the last prime of 144,000 who is this> Me - you?

 

[Lanolin]

Lanolin,

You're asking great questions and I bet @Ahwatukee or @dcontroversal can give you the historical information that you are asking for.......

Be patient, they will answer you...... we will all learn together.....

Ok. Well I was just reading a book, about the nation of Israel. Its now 70 years old since it became a nation in 1948.
The interesting thing is, all the people that made aliyah back there all had to learn how to speak Hebrew. The ones born there now are called sabras which is a a prickly kind of fruit thats juicy inside.

Every israelite needs to serve in the IDF...the israeli defence force. Its the one unifiying thing. And they all need to study the Bible as partof their education. I dont know if that includes the NT.

 

[Adstar]

But Revelation is highly spiritual and symbolic language representing real history concerning the Church and the Jews (Judah).
As for your interpretations on Revelation I find them to be highly speculative and incorrect.

While the book of Revelation does have symbolic language i believe it is a mistake to believe all of the books writings are symbolic..

I believe it is a mixture of symbolic and literal.. Thus we are in need of the guidance of Gods Holy Spirit to understand when it is being literal and when it is being symbolic..

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Here Lafftur....My view........and very plausible.......won't argue....after 30 years this is my conclusion.......

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

The story assumed an important place in later Christian tradition; Byzantine liturgy estimated 14,000 Holy Innocents while an early Syrian list of saints stated the number at 64,000. Coptic sources raise the number to 144,000 and place the event on 29 December.[1] Taking the narrative literally and judging from the estimated population of Bethlehem, the Catholic Encyclopedia (1907–12) more soberly suggested that these numbers were inflated, and that probably only between six and twenty children were killed in the town, with a dozen or so more in the surrounding areas.[2]

1. E. Porcher, ed. and tr., Histoire d'Isaac, patriarche Jacobite d'Alexandrie de 686 à 689, écrite par Mina, évêque de Pchati, volume 11. 1915. Texts in Arabic, Greek and Syriac, p. 526.
2. ^ Holy Innocents in the Catholic Encyclopedia: "The Greek Liturgy asserts that Herod killed 14,000 boys (ton hagion id chiliadon Nepion), the Syrians speak of 64,000, many medieval authors of 144,000, according to Apocalypse 14:3. Writers who accept the historicity of the episode reduce the number considerably, since Bethlehem was a rather small town. Joseph Knabenbauer brings it down to fifteen or twenty (Evang. S. Matt., I, 104), August Bisping to ten or twelve (Evang. S. Matt.), Lorenz Kellner to about six (Christus und seine Apostel, Freiburg, 1908); cf. "Anzeiger kath. Geistlichk. Deutschl.", 15 Febr., 1909, p. 32."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents

Coptic sources and it appears many medieval authors do as similar to dcon.

You are looking at babies and little children, only 30 in number, being inflated to 144,000
And why would random jewish children be this group?

 

[Ahwatukee]

If its still future, then the people living in israel ought to know what tribe they are in...do they really know or is it they are all from the tribe of Judah, with the current state, being over 80 percent Jewish. As far as I know they haven't apportioned the land out to the different tribes like how they were meant to. But then I don't live there so, I wouldn't know if they have done this or not.

Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, being born in Judea. But I dont know if the Israelis now being born into the land have divide it up or choose where they live, or if they remember all their genealogy, after they had been exiled. Wouldn't it go by their last name. I've known people with the surname Asher, and Levi, but haven't really come across any of the other names. I've heard some tribes were lost, the lost 10 tribes of Israel, the other two tribes stayed in the land and these were Judah and Benjamin.

Hello Lanolin,

In answer to your question, if will you will notice, God sends an angel to seal the 144,000. Therefore, it is not necessary for them to know what tribe they are from, for God knows who belongs to what tribe and He is the One having them sealed. I doubt that today that any Jew knows what tribe he/she belongs to, but God knows.

 

[Deade]

Ok. Well I was just reading a book, about the nation of Israel. Its now 70 years old since it became a nation in 1948.
The interesting thing is, all the people that made aliyah back there all had to learn how to speak Hebrew. The ones born there now are called sabras which is a a prickly kind of fruit thats juicy inside.

Every israelite needs to serve in the IDF...the israeli defence force. Its the one unifiying thing. And they all need to study the Bible as partvof their education. I dont know if that includes the NT.

Hello Lanolin, yes Ahwatukee is correct that when God establishes the 144,000 they will know exactly who they are. Do not confuse the people that have settled the land and call themselves Israel with the real Israel of God's choosing. They should call themselves Judah for that is their real identity.

The Southern Kingdom of Judah consisted of what we call Jews today. The following is a paragraph from Wikipedia describing their makeup:

Israel continued to exist within the reduced territory as an independent kingdom subject to Assyria until around 725–720 BCE, when it was again invaded by Assyria and the rest of the population deported. The Bible relates that the population of Israel was exiled, leaving only the Tribe of Judah, the Tribe of Simeon (that was "absorbed" into Judah), the Tribe of Benjamin, and the people of the Tribe of Levi who lived among them of the original Israelite tribes in the southern Kingdom of Judah.

Levi was only partly absorbed as there were many more serving in the Northern Kingdom when they were led captive. Benjamin was mostly absorbed but history says some of them went off with the Northern captivity. Therefore only two tribes are totally accounted for in the South (Judah and Simeon). Thus, 10 tribes are still lost. But not to God.

 

[Lanolin]

There is still tension there because of the arabs still living there before it became Israel when it was palestine. The arabs dont really belong cos they speak arabic not Hebrew and dont identify as Jewish. They are exempt from serving in the IDF. Arab christians arent treated particularly well, and they are kind of second class citizens. The other arab nations wont allow them to refugee into their countries, so they are kind of stuck.

The arabs, if traced back, are descendants of Esau, and the Israelites. Are descendants of Jacob. If I recall correctly. Jacob 'stole' the firstborn blessing from Esau, who actually didnt value it.

I am just trying to make sense of whats going on here. The promised land of Canaan is actually very tiny in area compared to the vast lands surrounding it, which belong to arab nations. Its meant to be a land of milk and honey...it has hills and valleys. Why is this precious land so important? If there has to be one place thats the centre of all of the earth, why has God made it Jerusalem?

Why does the lamb stand on. mount zion? Will there really be 144,000 believers in the land when Jesus returns. After all that is the place that its said he will stand.

In revelation 2 Jesus says twice to the seven churches that there will be people that lie and say they are jews when they are not. He says they are of the synagogue of satan. Rev 2:13 talks about satan having a seat. Where is satan's seat? Pergamos?

 

[Deade]

There is still tension there because of the arabs still living there before it became Israel when it was palestine. The arabs dont really belong cos they speak arabic not Hebrew and dont identify as Jewish. They are exempt from serving in the IDF. Arab christians arent treated particularly well, and they are kind of second class citizens. The other arab nations wont allow them to refugee into their countries, so they are kind of stuck.

The arabs, if traced back, are descendants of Esau, and the Israelites. Are descendants of Jacob. If I recall correctly. Jacob 'stole' the firstborn blessing from Esau, who actually didnt value it.

I am just trying to make sense of whats going on here. The promised land of Canaan is actually very tiny in area compared to the vast lands surrounding it, which belong to arab nations. Its meant to be a land of milk and honey...it has hills and valleys. Why is this precious land so important? If there has to be one place thats the centre of all of the earth, why has God made it Jerusalem?

Why does the lamb stand on. mount zion? Will there really be 144,000 believers in the land when Jesus returns. After all that is the place that its said he will stand.

In revelation 2 Jesus says twice to the seven churches that there will be people that lie and say they are jews when they are not. He says they are of the synagogue of satan. Rev 2:13 talks about satan having a seat. Where is satan's seat? Pergamos?

Lanolin, you take a great big bite out of prophecy and wonder why it is so hard to chew. A little advise get a little nibble here and there and realize you will not decipher all you need in a few passes. Keep digging and searching. God has promised, if your are sincere, you will be fruitful (see Matthew 7:7).

 

[Grandpa]

Here Lafftur....My view........and very plausible.......won't argue....after 30 years this is my conclusion.......

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

This is a very good view, imo.

The only thing that doesn't make it perfect, in my own head, is the perfect numbers of 12,000 for each tribe with a total of exactly 144,000.

That nagging detail makes me think that there are more involved than "just" the ones Herod killed. Possibly some before and some after, in time. But along the same lines of your description. The elect of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is a very good view, imo.

The only thing that doesn't make it perfect, in my own head, is the perfect numbers of 12,000 for each tribe with a total of exactly 144,000.

That nagging detail makes me think that there are more involved than "just" the ones Herod killed. Possibly some before and some after, in time. But along the same lines of your description. The elect of God.

God has a unique way of providing exact numbers.....Herod killed all the boys under 2 in all of Judea and the coasts thereof......Knowing Jewish families and how many children they have and the prophecy of Rachael weeping for her children and her children not being.....I have no problem with that number.......there were over 1 million Jews alone in the Jerusalem area when Titus raised the city....not counting ALL of Judea and all the coasts thereof.....12,000 boys under two from each tribe is not that big of a deal......IMV

 

[Didymous]

The story assumed an important place in later Christian tradition; Byzantine liturgy estimated 14,000 Holy Innocents while an early Syrian list of saints stated the number at 64,000. Coptic sources raise the number to 144,000 and place the event on 29 December.[1] Taking the narrative literally and judging from the estimated population of Bethlehem, the Catholic Encyclopedia (1907–12) more soberly suggested that these numbers were inflated, and that probably only between six and twenty children were killed in the town, with a dozen or so more in the surrounding areas.[2]

1. E. Porcher, ed. and tr., Histoire d'Isaac, patriarche Jacobite d'Alexandrie de 686 à 689, écrite par Mina, évêque de Pchati, volume 11. 1915. Texts in Arabic, Greek and Syriac, p. 526.
2. ^ Holy Innocents in the Catholic Encyclopedia: "The Greek Liturgy asserts that Herod killed 14,000 boys (ton hagion id chiliadon Nepion), the Syrians speak of 64,000, many medieval authors of 144,000, according to Apocalypse 14:3. Writers who accept the historicity of the episode reduce the number considerably, since Bethlehem was a rather small town. Joseph Knabenbauer brings it down to fifteen or twenty (Evang. S. Matt., I, 104), August Bisping to ten or twelve (Evang. S. Matt.), Lorenz Kellner to about six (Christus und seine Apostel, Freiburg, 1908); cf. "Anzeiger kath. Geistlichk. Deutschl.", 15 Febr., 1909, p. 32."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents

Coptic sources and it appears many medieval authors do as similar to dcon.

You are looking at babies and little children, only 30 in number, being inflated to 144,000
And why would random jewish children be this group?

Even though the number may still fall short of 144,000, it wasn't just in Bethlehem that Herod slew children, but in the surrounding area, as well.

 

[dcontroversal]

Even though the number may still fall short of 144,000, it wasn't just in Bethlehem that Herod slew children, but in the surrounding area, as well.

Amen........All of Judea and the coasts thereof.....with the number of the JEWS being in the Millions (as evidenced by how many were killed in the Roman siege) I have no problem in arriving at 12,000 boys under the age of two from each tribe

 

[garee]

Some things in the book of revelation are hard to understand. So I thought I would ask here.

Am wondering whether the tribes listed in revelation 7 and again mentioned in revelation 14 are all the old testament saints? Or are they particular group at the time of Jesus. Or...are they an end-times group.
And who would the 24 elders be...would they be all the godly elders before Israel, like Isaac, Abraham, Noah, Enoch...?

What are your thoughts and what does scripture say about who these people are, as they arent really named. All I know is there's 12,000 sealed from each tribe. What is the seal of the living God? Are these seals the same as the seven seals the lamb opens? Who are the first fruits?

The 144,000 is a metaphorical number word that t represent the whole bride of Christ. She as the bride of Christ coming down on the last day is made of all that have been elected to salvation . Thousand as usual is used to represent a unknow concealed. .God forbids literally numbering.

I think it was the Mormons that ran into difficulty when they special number ran out of room

12 plus 12 the whole sum 24

12 thousand( concealed number ) representing all of the old testament saints times 12 thousand ( concealed number ) new testament saints.

The reference is in respect to that no man could count. Thousands of million is another reference to the same chaste virgin bride of Christ the church. Simply meaning redeemed from the earth.


Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[garee]

Amen........All of Judea and the coasts thereof.....with the number of the JEWS being in the Millions (as evidenced by how many were killed in the Roman siege) I have no problem in arriving at 12,000 boys under the age of two from each tribe

I would offer. The gospel represented by 144,000 (chaste virgin bride) has nothing to with the flesh of men from any nation, any age, any gender . We walk by faith, the unseen eternal not by sight after the things seen the temporal .

 

[dcontroversal]

I would offer. The gospel represented by 144,000 (chaste virgin bride) has nothing to with the flesh of men from any nation, any age, any gender . We walk by faith, the unseen eternal not by sight after the things seen the temporal .

I would disagree with this and the above post that spiritualizes away the number.......

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is a very good view, imo.

The only thing that doesn't make it perfect, in my own head, is the perfect numbers of 12,000 for each tribe with a total of exactly 144,000.

That nagging detail makes me think that there are more involved than "just" the ones Herod killed. Possibly some before and some after, in time. But along the same lines of your description. The elect of God.

Greetings Grandpa,

Regarding the person who suggested that the 144,000 as being those children whom Herod killed, (if that is what they are claiming) I would ask, how are they linking the two? For there is no scripture that supports this. To claim this would simply be to apply it without any scripture to back it up.

The 144,000 is a future group which will come out of the woman, i.e. unbelieving Israel, as those who will be in their mortal bodies and will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah and who will be sealed during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period.

 

[dcontroversal]

Greetings Grandpa,

Regarding the person who suggested that the 144,000 as being those children whom Herod killed, (if that is what they are claiming) I would ask, how are they linking the two? For there is no scripture that supports this. To claim this would simply be to apply it without any scripture to back it up.

The 144,000 is a future group which will come out of the woman, i.e. unbelieving Israel, as those who will be in their mortal bodies and will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah and who will be sealed during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period.

Quote the scripture which states this as fact....and while we are there.....the angel ASCENDS to HEAVEN to seal the 144,000 and if it is representative of salvation why are they NOT sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT?

There is neither JEW nor GENTILE under the new covenant and the hilarious truth.....the bolded above IS EXACTLY what the underlined false accusation you make is doing.....