144,000 all tribes, 24 elders

[garee]

Numbers..I do believe there is significance of specific numbers and that they arent in the Bible for no reason.

I got to thinking if the 144,000 represent the firstfruits, which maybe a tenth or a tithe of the total harvest, perhaps there could be maybe 14,400,000 people in heaven in total...14.4 million souls, thats still a lot of people.
Of course no man can literally count all these people but God knows every hair on our head..they are all numbered! Luke 12:7

I mean I havent counted the number of hairs on mine... for some people its really easy cos they are bald.

I think maybe its linking to the ten toes of the kingdoms some are iron mixed with clay and the cornerstone will crush the remaining kingdoms. Perhaps saved Israel represents a tenth of the entire population of believers. There had to be but ten righteous people in sodom and gomorrah for God not to destroy it. A quorum requires ten believing men otherwise they cannot meet. Firstfruits are a tenth of the harvest.

Firstfruits are the born again Christian or can be called a inward jew not pertaining to what the eyes see.

Ten like the word thousand or hundred can be used to represent an unknown. In one case the word eighteen was typified as ten coming from the Greek word deka to represent all.

It could of been a literal 18 but the word for eighteen (dekaochtó ) was not used in the original . Perhaps if ten represents a unknow , eight is used to represent, beyond measure as it is used at times.

Luke 13:3-5 King James Version (KJV) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

All Israel is not considered born again Israel as a inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ .

144,000 represents all that have been redeemed by the lamb of God.They as the bride new creatures sang a new song. She as the fife of Christ typified as the mother of us all is first shown in a parable found in Genesis 3:15 with the incorruptible seed protecter her for the father of lies the seed by which mankind are born again after.

Its never about flesh and blood Jew and Gentile . We neither wrestle against it or use it to confirm the unseen.

The Jews for a temporal time period were used as a metaphor to represent belief and unbelief of mankind. The same with foods and the use of animals to represent belief and unbelief of mankind. The temporal that give us the unseen eternal understanding it never becomes the substance by which we could. . We walk by faith (the unseen)

The gates that represent the chaste virgin bride are only part of the description of her. After he beheld the gates as part of the same description in the same breath he beheld a great multitude .to includes the walls that describe the same bride as the wife of Christ . (on wife one gospel ) A number that no man could .It would be easier to count the dust .And God foribid literally counting it shows that some are not walking by faith. Thousands died when David decided not to trust the unseen .

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation7:9

Not Jewish or gentile hands but a new creature (we are not what we will be)

White robes are used to represent the bride of Christ clothed with the imputed righteousness of Christ, she is typified as the mother of us all . They are not used to divide Jewish flesh from Gentile flesh as if God our Potter was a respecter of the clay he forms Christ in.

As she holds out the gospel seed as did Paul when used to represent the bride of Christ as the mother of us all .Paul representing a segregate womb suffered in birth pain in a hope the gospel seed would grow in Timothy typified as a chaste virgin bride travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The Sun and the moon under her feet .Its the end of time the metaphoric thousand years is up.

Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Lanolin]

I dont believe its jewish vs gentile as both will be together in the end anyway.
The 144,000 arent all jews because its ALL the tribes of israel. Well, except Dan. judah is just one of the tribes listed.
The first fruits would only be jewish simply cos Jesus was jewish. It does day elswehere in the bible salvation is of the jews first, then the gentiles. Its only the order of things. But elsewhere it does say the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

Revealation 11:2 tells us that the outer court isnt measured like the inner court, because its given to the gentiles. Theres a certain number of the children of Israel, and then a countless number of gentiles.

 

[SpoonJuly]

I dont believe its jewish vs gentile as both will be together in the end anyway.
The 144,000 arent all jews because its ALL the tribes of israel. Well, except Dan. judah is just one of the tribes listed.
.

So you are saying that when the Scripture states there are 12,000 from each tribe they are not all Jews.
One should be very careful when they question what the Scripture clearly states.
Don't become like so many others on this forum and start giving your private interpretation or opinion as Scripture fact.

 

[SpoonJuly]

As I have stated before, there are certain facts giver in Scripture identifying who the 144,000 are.
When one begins to try a find out things that God choose not to reveal, it leads to all kinds of speculation and opinions.
The danger is that one begins to believe these opinions to be facts and then one opinion leads to another opinion and the truth is just lost.
A lot of false doctrine is the result of just such behavior.

 

[Lanolin]

So you are saying that when the Scripture states there are 12,000 from each tribe they are not all Jews.
One should be very careful when they question what the Scripture clearly states.
Don't become like so many others on this forum and start giving your private interpretation or opinion as Scripture fact.

It says 12,000 from each tribe. Read revealtion. All of Israel isnt jewish. Remember How Israel split into twp kingdoms, Israel (north) and Judah (south). Its all in the Bible. Not my opinion.

 

[Lanolin]

Firstfruits are the born again Christian or can be called a inward jew not pertaining to what the eyes see.

Ten like the word thousand or hundred can be used to represent an unknown. In one case the word eighteen was typified as ten coming from the Greek word deka to represent all.

It could of been a literal 18 but the word for eighteen (dekaochtó ) was not used in the original . Perhaps if ten represents a unknow , eight is used to represent, beyond measure as it is used at times.

Luke 13:3-5 King James Version (KJV) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

All Israel is not considered born again Israel as a inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ .

144,000 represents all that have been redeemed by the lamb of God.They as the bride new creatures sang a new song. She as the fife of Christ typified as the mother of us all is first shown in a parable found in Genesis 3:15 with the incorruptible seed protecter her for the father of lies the seed by which mankind are born again after.

Its never about flesh and blood Jew and Gentile . We neither wrestle against it or use it to confirm the unseen.

The Jews for a temporal time period were used as a metaphor to represent belief and unbelief of mankind. The same with foods and the use of animals to represent belief and unbelief of mankind. The temporal that give us the unseen eternal understanding it never becomes the substance by which we could. . We walk by faith (the unseen)

The gates that represent the chaste virgin bride are only part of the description of her. After he beheld the gates as part of the same description in the same breath he beheld a great multitude .to includes the walls that describe the same bride as the wife of Christ . (on wife one gospel ) A number that no man could .It would be easier to count the dust .And God foribid literally counting it shows that some are not walking by faith. Thousands died when David decided not to trust the unseen .

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation7:9

Not Jewish or gentile hands but a new creature (we are not what we will be)

White robes are used to represent the bride of Christ clothed with the imputed righteousness of Christ, she is typified as the mother of us all . They are not used to divide Jewish flesh from Gentile flesh as if God our Potter was a respecter of the clay he forms Christ in.

As she holds out the gospel seed as did Paul when used to represent the bride of Christ as the mother of us all .Paul representing a segregate womb suffered in birth pain in a hope the gospel seed would grow in Timothy typified as a chaste virgin bride travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The Sun and the moon under her feet .Its the end of time the metaphoric thousand years is up.

Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Well Im not ignoring scripture when it gives specific measurements of the city. That there are twelve gates, and twelve foundations.

If you want to spiritualize it, well thats your opinion, not whats written in scripture.

 

[garee]

Well Im not ignoring scripture when it gives specific measurements of the city. That there are twelve gates, and twelve foundations.

If you want to spiritualize it, well thats your opinion, not whats written in scripture.

Its self what you call spiritualizing. The signified language of Revelation uses gates, the temporal seen to enter in the bride of Christ not seen and apostles as walls that defend as a fortress. . The golden measure seems to represent the unseen spiritual understanding hid in all parables. Its how the whole book is constructed (signified). using the prescription in 2 Corinthians 4:18 to give us the understanding of the parable or called hidden Manna in Revelation 2

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified it" by his angel unto his servant John:

It seems clear that God does use two kinds of measurements .One as that seen the temporal and one not seen the eternal the immeasurable .

1)Gold... the immeasurability of God
2)Man.... that in which the eyes see. The walking by sight principle.
3)Gold... the immeasurable of God as the things of God. The faith principle.
"Golden reed".
4)Golden candlestick...…. a measure by which we walk as the light gospel unto our feet.
5)Golden girdle...……. the new order of the priesthood of belivers from all nations after melchezedek. Christ our high priest continually immeasurable. .
6) Golden vials full of odours,...…. which are the innumerable prayers of saints.
7)Golden altar ….the immeasurability…. forgiveness

 

[Lanolin]

Its self what you call spiritualizing. The signified language of Revelation uses gates, the temporal seen to enter in the bride of Christ not seen and apostles as walls that defend as a fortress. . The golden measure seems to represent the unseen spiritual understanding hid in all parables. Its how the whole book is constructed (signified). using the prescription in 2 Corinthians 4:18 to give us the understanding of the parable or called hidden Manna in Revelation 2

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified it" by his angel unto his servant John:

It seems clear that God does use two kinds of measurements .One as that seen the temporal and one not seen the eternal the immeasurable .

1)Gold... the immeasurability of God
2)Man.... that in which the eyes see. The walking by sight principle.
3)Gold... the immeasurable of God as the things of God. The faith principle.
"Golden reed".
4)Golden candlestick...…. a measure by which we walk as the light gospel unto our feet.
5)Golden girdle...……. the new order of the priesthood of belivers from all nations after melchezedek. Christ our high priest continually immeasurable. .
6) Golden vials full of odours,...…. which are the innumerable prayers of saints.
7)Golden altar ….the immeasurability…. forgiveness

You not making any sense.
Sorry.
There were 12 sons of Jacob right? Collectively called Israel.
Thats the basis of the 12 foundations and the twelve gates because there were 12 tribes. And 12,000 in each tribe. Making up 144,000 because 12 x 12,000 = 144,000 its just basic maths.

 

[garee]

You not making any sense.
Sorry.
There were 12 sons of Jacob right? Collectively called Israel.
Thats the basis of the 12 foundations and the twelve gates because there were 12 tribes. And 12,000 in each tribe. Making up 144,000 because 12 x 12,000 = 144,000 its just basic maths.

I am not having a problem with math. Gates according to the golden reed equal..... the wife of Christ, just as walls the same bride. Two kinds of measurements .One in respect to what the eyes see the temporal (the measure of men) and the other the new eyes of our new hearts the eternal (the measure of God or measure of His faith), not that of our own selves .. We must compare the "unseen to the unseen" measure. or "faith to faith" . Its how we know the gospel is in view according to Romans1.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.Romans1:16-17

1444,000 equal every beliver from the begiing starting with Abel one of the lively stones that does make up the spiritual house of God the church .His eternal bride. . Its not a matter of two plus two.its a matter of 1444,00 is a number that represent the redeemed .

 

[Lanolin]

I am not having a problem with math. Gates according to the golden reed equal..... the wife of Christ, just as walls the same bride. Two kinds of measurements .One in respect to what the eyes see the temporal (the measure of men) and the other the new eyes of our new hearts the eternal (the measure of God or measure of His faith), not that of our own selves .. We must compare the "unseen to the unseen" measure. or "faith to faith" . Its how we know the gospel is in view according to Romans1.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.Romans1:16-17

1444,000 equal every beliver from the begiing starting with Abel one of the lively stones that does make up the spiritual house of God the church .His eternal bride. . Its not a matter of two plus two.its a matter of 1444,00 is a number that represent the redeemed .

Its still a number of the children of Israel though.
Yes there isa fixed number and then there are the gentiles that are countless.
Nobody is saying theres one without the other.
It just seems YOU have a problem with there being a specific number. I dont.

 

[garee]

You not making any sense.
Sorry.
There were 12 sons of Jacob right? Collectively called Israel.
Thats the basis of the 12 foundations and the twelve gates because there were 12 tribes. And 12,000 in each tribe. Making up 144,000 because 12 x 12,000 = 144,000 its just basic maths.

Its still a number of the children of Israel though.
Yes there isa fixed number and then there are the gentiles that are countless.
Nobody is saying theres one without the other.
It just seems YOU have a problem with there being a specific number. I dont.

Hi thanks for the reply and bearing with me with the subject .What I call the golden rule of immsureability or reed is something I am looking at, not etched in stone. There seems to be a pattern ?

You say.. Nobody is saying there is one without the other. But then it would seem you make some difference between walls and gates as if it had something to do with flesh and blood as the same measure of man as to what the eyes see. It would appear the golden measure, or measure of faith represents the unseen holy place, the bride of Christ whose residents are Christians .

I am fixed on searching for the spiritual understanding in those parables. We are informed to search for the understanding (His) in parables as for gold and silver. He informs us without parables according to the prescription in 2 Corinthians 4:18 he spoke not. Hiding the gospel from those who have not ben given a new spirit and new heart that desires to do the will of our unseen Holy Father.

Or search for that hidden pearl beyond price...describing the gates by which we enter in when hearing the gospel and believing .Our first love of knowing Him..

Remember the book of Revelation is introduced as the signified language or poetic language of God as His autograph.... revealing he does work with us. Hiding the understanding from those who literalize .Which is needed to "walk by sight". Diminishing the prescription (2 Corinthians 4:18) by which we could mix faith and therefore not harden of hearts as those who do not hear the gospel ( Hebrew 4)

When using the golden measure of immeasurability (an unknown) using gates or walls its still the number of His bride the whole City as the spiritual house of God. . (144,000)

And not so much a specific number but how to measure or how do we hear the voice of God and not that of our own selves?

 

[Lanolin]

Hi thanks for the reply and bearing with me with the subject .What I call the golden rule of immsureability or reed is something I am looking at, not etched in stone. There seems to be a pattern ?

You say.. Nobody is saying there is one without the other. But then it would seem you make some difference between walls and gates as if it had something to do with flesh and blood as the same measure of man as to what the eyes see. It would appear the golden measure, or measure of faith represents the unseen holy place, the bride of Christ whose residents are Christians .

I am fixed on searching for the spiritual understanding in those parables. We are informed to search for the understanding (His) in parables as for gold and silver. He informs us without parables according to the prescription in 2 Corinthians 4:18 he spoke not. Hiding the gospel from those who have not ben given a new spirit and new heart that desires to do the will of our unseen Holy Father.

Or search for that hidden pearl beyond price...describing the gates by which we enter in when hearing the gospel and believing .Our first love of knowing Him..

Remember the book of Revelation is introduced as the signified language or poetic language of God as His autograph.... revealing he does work with us. Hiding the understanding from those who literalize .Which is needed to "walk by sight". Diminishing the prescription (2 Corinthians 4:18) by which we could mix faith and therefore not harden of hearts as those who do not hear the gospel ( Hebrew 4)

When using the golden measure of immeasurability (an unknown) using gates or walls its still the number of His bride the whole City as the spiritual house of God. . (144,000)

And not so much a specific number but how to measure or how do we hear the voice of God and not that of our own selves?

Oh ok but God does tell Ezekiel and John and the angels exact measurements of His city. He even gets them to measure it. Why would God do that.

I think to show that God cares about His people just like He knows every number of hairs on our head.
Its like the Shepherd who looks after his flocks, knows he has 100 sheep, but will go after the 1 that went astray.
Have you ever had a collection or a large family? Do you number or take a stocktake of them? Example, Im a librarian, its up to me to know just how many books are in the library. Sometimes there are special categories such as ones not for loan that are reference and they need to be kept apart from the ones that circulate. Which can be a countless number.
Now all of these are books and not to say I value one kind over the other. But they have different purposes.

 

[garee]

Oh ok but God does tell Ezekiel and John and the angels exact measurements of His city. He even gets them to measure it. Why would God do that.

I think to show that God cares about His people just like He knows every number of hairs on our head.
Its like the Shepherd who looks after his flocks, knows he has 100 sheep, but will go after the 1 that went astray.
Have you ever had a collection or a large family? Do you number or take a stocktake of them? Example, Im a librarian, its up to me to know just how many books are in the library. Sometimes there are special categories such as ones not for loan that are reference and they need to be kept apart from the ones that circulate. Which can be a countless number.
Now all of these are books and not to say I value one kind over the other. But they have different purposes.

Yes , one would equal all, as a golden measure. 10 would equal all. 1,000 million equal all as whatever is in view.

I am not sure why exactly But I would offer. like 12 it is used to represent the authority of God as to what ever is in view. .Whether it gates to represent the old testament saints that make up the bride of Christ .Or walls to respect the believers on this side of the cross that make up the same bride . I would offer it would seem he has set aside certain numbers to represent a unseen . Like the word thousand or hundred or ten. He uses them to represent a unknown. He seems to use that in multiples of ten all the way to thousands of millions Used to identify the bride of Christ as the mother of us all. Using Rebekah to represent the bride of Christ the church . 1444;000 a unknown represent by the 24 elders typified as gates on the Old tesetemmt side and elders as sent ones called apostles together as the golden measure His chaste virgin bride

Lost coin, lost sheep, lost souls (Sodom and Gomorrah )

Genesis 24:60And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

 

[Lanolin]

Yes , one would equal all, as a golden measure. 10 would equal all. 1,000 million equal all as whatever is in view.

I am not sure why exactly But I would offer. like 12 it is used to represent the authority of God as to what ever is in view. .Whether it gates to represent the old testament saints that make up the bride of Christ .Or walls to respect the believers on this side of the cross that make up the same bride . I would offer it would seem he has set aside certain numbers to represent a unseen . Like the word thousand or hundred or ten. He uses them to represent a unknown. He seems to use that in multiples of ten all the way to thousands of millions Used to identify the bride of Christ as the mother of us all. Using Rebekah to represent the bride of Christ the church . 1444;000 a unknown represent by the 24 elders typified as gates on the Old tesetemmt side and elders as sent ones called apostles together as the golden measure His chaste virgin bride

Lost coin, lost sheep, lost souls (Sodom and Gomorrah )

Genesis 24:60And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

Thats interesting but I posit that with the 144,000 thats the number that would be serving God at the time its not to say the saints wont take turns serving God or that there wont be more its just the first fruits and the number that would fit inside the city walls to start with. Course there are defintiely more without number.

The 144,000 would proabably be the MINIMUM needed to represent all the children of Israel.