144,000 all tribes, 24 elders

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Mar 28, 2016
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#61
I would disagree with this and the above post that spiritualizes away the number.......

Spiritualize as in the signified language inspired by God? The kind of language spoken of in parables as without Christ spoke not.

Why would a person look to the things seen the temporal to give us the spiritual eternal meaning that Christ hides? He hides his understanding from natural man who has no desire to search them out..

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What the signified meaning of the key as that seen (faith principle.) in the parable below if not the gospel, and the bottomless pit as the binding power of the gospel to represent a unknow time period ? What is the signified meaning of the word hand. If it does not represent the will of God?

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Revelation 20
 
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#62
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Revelation 7 :1-3

All believer are servants of a God not seen.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand Revelation 7:4-8

They represent the bride of Christ in respect to the old testament saints as one half of the description of the same bride..

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

God does not number his people. Satan enticed David not God.

Revelation 14:1-3 King James Version (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

God redeems the Jew in the same way as a Gentile. Trying to divide the sinful Jew from sinful the gentile does make biblical sense .

Genesis establishes that if a man could count the dust particles of the earth then he might have a chance at counting those literally redeemed from earth.

Genesis 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#63
Greetings Grandpa,

Regarding the person who suggested that the 144,000 as being those children whom Herod killed, (if that is what they are claiming) I would ask, how are they linking the two? For there is no scripture that supports this. To claim this would simply be to apply it without any scripture to back it up.

The 144,000 is a future group which will come out of the woman, i.e. unbelieving Israel, as those who will be in their mortal bodies and will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah and who will be sealed during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period.
There is no Scripture to support your last paragraph.
As with much of what you post, it is opinion supported by a private interpretation of Scripture.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#64
Greetings Grandpa,

Regarding the person who suggested that the 144,000 as being those children whom Herod killed, (if that is what they are claiming) I would ask, how are they linking the two? For there is no scripture that supports this. To claim this would simply be to apply it without any scripture to back it up.

The 144,000 is a future group which will come out of the woman, i.e. unbelieving Israel, as those who will be in their mortal bodies and will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah and who will be sealed during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period.
Its not clear whether the 144,000 have already died and are in heaven or they are alive and will be prepared for heaven.

To me it seems this 144,000 are alive at the time of being sealed, and the ones in white robes have already been killed. If you read revelation 6:9-11.

Im kind of leaning to it being a kind of army centred in Jerusalem and the parallells with Numbers are quite striking, with each tribe having equal numbers and the walls of the city being square. The angels sealing all these tribes before they go and release the seven plagues.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#65
Its not clear whether the 144,000 have already died and are in heaven or they are alive and will be prepared for heaven.

To me it seems this 144,000 are alive at the time of being sealed, and the ones in white robes have already been killed. If you read revelation 6:9-11.

Im kind of leaning to it being a kind of army centred in Jerusalem and the parallells with Numbers are quite striking, with each tribe having equal numbers and the walls of the city being square. The angels sealing all these tribes before they go and release the seven plagues.
If one lists all the locations they are listed it becomes all too obvious where they are located.....and I will again note....the ANGEL that seals them ASCENDS (same word applied to JESUS IN ACTS) while speaking to the Angel descending to the earth........so many things are overlooked by most when looking at this group
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#66
If one lists all the locations they are listed it becomes all too obvious where they are located.....and I will again note....the ANGEL that seals them ASCENDS (same word applied to JESUS IN ACTS) while speaking to the Angel descending to the earth........so many things are overlooked by most when looking at this group
Ok, just checking...is the mount of sion in heaven?
Revelation 14:1
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#67
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No they are not. As you can see those are exactly 12,000 redeemed Israelites out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel, and they are saved during the Tribulation (future).

As for the 24 elders, it would appear that these have been selected out of all the elders of all the churches, because of their faithful service and their adherence to Bible truth.
My current opinions:
  1. The 144,000 were those saved out of the 7 year tribulation of the First Roman-Jewish War 66AD-73AD.
  2. The 24 elders contain some of the apostles and first martyrs such as maybe Steven. For they (the 24 elders) conquered Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the words of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Satan was defeated (conquered) in the 1st century A.D.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#68
The 144K is a number representing the first Christians belonging to the 12 tribes.

(Rev 14:4 . . . . . These were redeemed from humanity as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.)

To place the firstfruits beyond the early church would make the 144K latter fruits not firstfruits.
Yes, I agree with this. The resurrection of Jesus and these 144K first fruits (plus the 24 elders) sealed the defeat over Satan and over death. This occured in the 1st century AD. After Satan's defeat at this time he became Angry and Furious (Rev 12:12-17) like never before (Rev 12:1-7) and went to make war on the offspring of the Woman (believers in Christ). Satan's war began in 1st century AD. Satan's same war continues today.

I believe Revelation gives us prophesy that covers us from 1st century AD all the way to today, and from today all the way until all things are made New.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#69
Yes, I agree with this. The resurrection of Jesus and these 144K first fruits (plus the 24 elders) sealed the defeat over Satan and over death. This occured in the 1st century AD. After Satan's defeat at this time he became Angry and Furious (Rev 12:12-17) like never before (Rev 12:1-7) and went to make war on the offspring of the Woman (believers in Christ). Satan's war began in 1st century AD. Satan's same war continues today.

I believe Revelation gives us prophesy that covers us from 1st century AD all the way to today, and from today all the way until all things are made New.
Interesting about the firstfruits. It seems like theres two ways to see this.

1. Firstfruits meaning the first to be fruitful for God. Would this be believing Israel. Yet all Israel seems not saved...and what about the remnant that we see now in modern Israel?
2. Or does it mean the very first of the faithful like all those mentioned in Hebrews 11.

As for 24 elders why would abraham, Isacc and Jacob not be in heaven too? How about Elijah and Moses. And John the baptist..,he was not even counted as an apostle. And the OT prophets...how many are there?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#70
Interesting about the firstfruits. It seems like theres two ways to see this.

1. Firstfruits meaning the first to be fruitful for God. Would this be believing Israel. Yet all Israel seems not saved...and what about the remnant that we see now in modern Israel?
2. Or does it mean the very first of the faithful like all those mentioned in Hebrews 11.

As for 24 elders why would abraham, Isacc and Jacob not be in heaven too? How about Elijah and Moses. And John the baptist..,he was not even counted as an apostle. And the OT prophets...how many are there?
Good day Lanolin,

The 144,000 as the first fruits is not referring to their chronological order as Nebuchadnezzar suggested, but refers to them in relation to the woman of Rev.12 as being unbelieving Israel, with the 144,000 coming out of the woman, which will be those of the twelve tribes of Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. And if you can except it, the Male Child whom the woman gives birth to, is a collective name representing the 144,000 who are sealed. This is a future group, not a past group. For this happens during the time of "what must take place later," i.e. after the church period.

Regarding the twenty four elders, I believe that twelve will represent Israel and twelve from the church. This is supported by the fact that, the names of the twelve tribes of Israel will be written on the twelve gates of the new Jerusalem, with the names of the twelve apostles representing the church written on the twelve foundations that make up the wall of the city (Rev.21:12-13).

The woman clothed with the sun, moon and stars = The nation Israel (unbelieving)

The Male Child = A collective name for the 144,000 who will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years

The sealing of the 144,000 takes place after the church has been gathered from the earth in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-17, Rev.4:1-2.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#71
Good day Lanolin,

The 144,000 as the first fruits is not referring to their chronological order as Nebuchadnezzar suggested, but refers to them in relation to the woman of Rev.12 as being unbelieving Israel, with the 144,000 coming out of the woman, which will be those of the twelve tribes of Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. And if you can except it, the Male Child whom the woman gives birth to, is a collective name representing the 144,000 who are sealed. This is a future group, not a past group. For this happens during the time of "what must take place later," i.e. after the church period.

Regarding the twenty four elders, I believe that twelve will represent Israel and twelve from the church. This is supported by the fact that, the names of the twelve tribes of Israel will be written on the twelve gates of the new Jerusalem, with the names of the twelve apostles representing the church written on the twelve foundations that make up the wall of the city (Rev.21:12-13).

The woman clothed with the sun, moon and stars = The nation Israel (unbelieving)

The Male Child = A collective name for the 144,000 who will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years

The sealing of the 144,000 takes place after the church has been gathered from the earth in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-17, Rev.4:1-2.
Um ok, I disagree I always thought the male child was Jesus in this passage.
But the 12 stars do represent the twelve tribes I guess.

With the 24 elders, the twelve from Israel are... Jacobs sons then? Not the prophets? i thought the foundation of Jesus was bulit on the apostles and the prophets. Ephesians 2:20

Jacobs sons or Israel collectively weren't prophets.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#72
Which 12 prophets though I am wondering.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#73
Ok thanks mr google
The minor prophets are numbered twelve according to some jewish versions of the Bible. Called the Nevi'im.

I then wonder if the major prophets miss out...?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#74
Interesting about the firstfruits. It seems like theres two ways to see this.

1. Firstfruits meaning the first to be fruitful for God. Would this be believing Israel. Yet all Israel seems not saved...and what about the remnant that we see now in modern Israel?
2. Or does it mean the very first of the faithful like all those mentioned in Hebrews 11.

As for 24 elders why would abraham, Isacc and Jacob not be in heaven too? How about Elijah and Moses. And John the baptist..,he was not even counted as an apostle. And the OT prophets...how many are there?
I would offer.. Thousand used with other numbers represents a unknown /concealed. Literalize it make it the word of God without effect and therefore a person misses the spiritual understanding hid from natural man..

The 24 elders in that parable are represented by the word metptphor "12' a word that mean the authority of God as to whatever is in view. Its spiritual meaning is represented as tribes that make up the spiritual house of God as His bride. Those 12 elders or representatives of the whole would be in regard to the other side of the reformation or cross . They are used to represent all of the old testemtment saints which are also described by "thousands or millions" in another parable to express a unknow or concealed.. Therefore using Rebekah to typify or signify the chaste virgin bride the church according to Galatians 4 as the segregate mother of all of Christianity .

Genesis 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

"Thousands of millions" as a metaphor is no different than saying "hundred and forty and four thousand" . They both represent that in which the gates of hell could never prevail against . The gospel key signified of in Revelation 20 (not a literal key or chain. The gospel does the binding of lying spirits..

Twelve, a remnant of the apostles is used to represent the His bride as the mother of us all on this side of the reformation. 12+12=24 Elders (the whole). .

The description in Revelation 7 is that which no man could number (144,000) is a metaphor for the whole or the elect. The many lively stones that does make up the spiritual house of God not seen, the church.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

First fruit is the spiritual fruit of salvation. First fruit it has nothing to do with the flesh and blood of nations. First fruit are Christians the new name God has named His people . First fruit is not jewfish flesh as if somehow God was a man as us and was a Jew. The reformation ended. The time period God used the flesh of a Jew in a parable has come to a end.

Previously His bride called Christians were called inward Jew or the born again Israel . Again name that reflects new creatures...not corrupted flesh and blood.

The first mistake I see is men separate flesh from flesh when searching as for silver or Gold the spiritual undststanding of that parable hid from those who literalize the meaning.. it is almost as if some would say the flesh of a Jew makes a better precious metal detector.

Men have give the corrupted flesh of a Jew honor that Christ would never...……. as if men did wrestle against flesh and blood..And Jesus did not say his own corrupted flesh profits for nothing. (John 6)

Its like the idea according to the father of lies. Christ has two brides. One Jewish bride the other Gentile.

The 144, 000 is simply a number no man could count .God forbids numbering his people. People will rush to fill in that number as some sort of sign gift. Search for the spiritual understanding in the parables.

Literalizing the signified language of Revelation identified in the opening statement. I would think simply leads to confusion and stuff for Hollywood. Christ will come as a thief in the night on the last day .

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#75
Ok thanks mr google
The minor prophets are numbered twelve according to some jewish versions of the Bible. Called the Nevi'im.

I then wonder if the major prophets miss out...?
Back to the minors? :)
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#76
Numbers..I do believe there is significance of specific numbers and that they arent in the Bible for no reason.

I got to thinking if the 144,000 represent the firstfruits, which maybe a tenth or a tithe of the total harvest, perhaps there could be maybe 14,400,000 people in heaven in total...14.4 million souls, thats still a lot of people.
Of course no man can literally count all these people but God knows every hair on our head..they are all numbered! Luke 12:7

I mean I havent counted the number of hairs on mine... for some people its really easy cos they are bald.

I think maybe its linking to the ten toes of the kingdoms some are iron mixed with clay and the cornerstone will crush the remaining kingdoms..perhaps saved Israel represents a tenth of the entire population of believers. There had to be but ten righteous people in sodom and gomorrah for God not to destroy it. A quorum requires ten believing men otherwise they cannot meet. Firstfruits are a tenth of the harvest.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#77
Um ok, I disagree I always thought the male child was Jesus in this passage.
But the 12 stars do represent the twelve tribes I guess.

With the 24 elders, the twelve from Israel are... Jacobs sons then? Not the prophets? i thought the foundation of Jesus was bulit on the apostles and the prophets. Ephesians 2:20

Jacobs sons or Israel collectively weren't prophets.
Yes, "the male child" is Jesus.
and, "a male child" is Joseph, son of Jacob.
and the 12 stars represent the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#78
Yes, "the male child" is Jesus.
and, "a male child" is Joseph, son of Jacob.
and the 12 stars represent the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel).
I’ve heard the 24 elders are the twelve sons of Jacob and the twelve apostles of Jesus. Just a thought.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#79
Here Lafftur....My view........and very plausible.......won't argue....after 30 years this is my conclusion.......

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.
Can you tell me if there is another place in Scripture that says having sex with a wife is defiling? In fact, isn’t that even a command after the fall, to be fruitful and multiply? Not saying you are wrong, but I don’t see how this could be conclusive. It’s more speculative. But very interesting nonetheless. Thank you.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#80
Can you tell me if there is another place in Scripture that says having sex with a wife is defiling? In fact, isn’t that even a command after the fall, to be fruitful and multiply? Not saying you are wrong, but I don’t see how this could be conclusive. It’s more speculative. But very interesting nonetheless. Thank you.
It does not say anything about the having sex with wives......the statement is.....they have not been defiled with women, and we know they have not had sex <---virgins.....We cannot read into the text something that is not there <---the wives view

and......

Read Leviticus 20

also

New American Standard Bible
If a man lies with a woman so that there is a seminal emission, they shall both bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

King James Bible
The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

When a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until evening

Any piece of cloth or leather with semen on it shall be washed with water and be unclean until evening.

If a man has sexual relations with a woman, they shall both bathe in water and be unclean until evening.