Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Good, now perhaps you can see for yourself that the ministry of Christ MUST continue for the believer. And it does continue because he lives forever to keep doing his ministry. But it is incumbent on us to continue in our faith in order to keep the ministry that never ceases applicable to us.

Christ's ministry is like a coat that never wears out and which will eternally keep you warm. But you have to keep wearing it to have it continually and without end keeping you warm. It doesn't stop being a source of eternal warmth when you stop wearing it. It just stops being that for you.

yeah....I don't believe that....I am firm in my belief of eternal security based upon the initial act of saving faith.....that cannot be shaken....too many things must be denied, swept under the rug and or flat twisted to teach one can lose salvation after being saved....it is not like I have a whim and stand where I stand just to be obstinate.....I have researched it intently and without bias because I wanted to know...not based upon men, religion or religious creed......the foundational concrete of eternal salvation rings true and is what separates biblical Christianity from ALL religions formed by men and or religiously inept false teaching.......just saying and not accusing....!

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi mailmandan,

So nice to see you. Comments below for your consideration

You continue to mix law and grace.

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Even when you set out to worship on the Sabbath, are you truly "keeping the Sabbath." To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament would involve compliance with regulations(Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

We are spiritual Israel today.

Rom 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Heb 8:10-12
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Just for your interest all of Leviticus Chapter 23 is talking about the annual Feasts and New Moon Sabbaths connected to annual Feasts that could fall on any day of the week depending when the New Moons started that was connected to a particular feast. These were Shadows pointing to Jesus.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, then so are the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). These were commanded by God to the sons of Israel. If the seventh day Sabbath is still in effect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person say he keeps a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

I think you are getting God’s Law mixed up with the ceremonial laws of Moses. God’s Law (the 10 commandments) have always had the same purpose in the old covenant. They were given to show what sin is. The ceremonial laws of Moses however with all the burnt offering, meat and drink offering etc were the prescription if someone sinned against God by breaking His Law. The ceremonial laws of Moses through burnt offerings for sin were to teach the children of Israel the plan of salvation and pointed to Jesus as the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world and were nailed to the cross at the death of Jesus (John 1:29-36; Heb 9:24-28; Col 2:14)

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Christian Church? The Seventh-day Adventist church? The government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under the Mosaic regulations.

Once again this is talking about the laws of Moses this time referring to the civil laws of Israel. These same laws were also applied to anyone openly breaking many of God’s other Laws not just the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath. In the Old covenant and Old Testament scriptures they took the Law of God (10 commandments) very seriously. If someone was caught openly breaking any of God’s commandments the civil laws of Israel required the death penalty. Gods 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Commandments (Ex 20:8-11) they were indeed stoned to death. This was part of the civil laws of Moses. What you did not mention however was that there was similar punishments given to those that openly broke God’s Law. For example; Not honouring your mother and farther (Lev 20:9), Blaspheming or using God’s name in vain (Lev 24:10-17), Idolatry ((Deut 27:15; Deut 7:25-26), serving other God (Deut 13:6-18; 1Sam 26:19), coveting and adultery (2Pet 2:14; John 8:5), evil towards your neighbour (Deut 27:15-26) and yes as the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath is one of God’s 10 commandments it was also included and if it was openly broken just like adultery (John 8:5) people were put to death. Breaking God’s Law (10 commandments) is sin (1John 3:4) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Nothing has changed and this is also recorded in the New Testament scriptures as well, although we are no longer under the civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical, Levitical, Sanctuary laws of Moses.

In Romans 14:1-23, the Apostle Paul says: "... One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.." In other words, for the Christian, the Apostle is saying that no day is to be regarded holier than another.

I am just wondering why you think this is referring to the Sabbath when the Sabbath is not even mentioned in Rom 14:1-23? Where in the entire chapter does it give any such indication that the fourth Commandment is being referred to? The fact is that Romans chapter 14 does not even use the word Sabbath and is typically a chosen assumption from those trying to avoid spending special one on one time with their Creator on His holy day.

Another very relevant fact is that the word “alike” is not actually in the Greek text at all and was added by the translators which has tended to imply something that Paul never intended.

So keeping true to the original Greek text, this is what Paul really said in verse 5.

14:5 “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” The passage context reveals that Romans 14:5 refers to the Jewish institutions and especially their festivals such as the Passover, Day of Atonement, the new moons etc, and meat sacrificed to idols. The Bible never refers to the Lord's Sabbath as just a day. It is always called The Sabbath or Sabbath Day.

Some Jews who did not yet know or understand the Gospel message thought these days still had to be observed while the Gentile Christian not having ever kept these feast days knew they were under no obligation to keep them. Consequently there was disagreement between Jews and Gentiles over keeping these sacrificial feasts that ended at the cross.

So Paul is instructing them to consider those whose faith enables them to immediately to leave behind all ceremonial holidays and not to despise others whose faith is not as strong. And also for the latter to not criticize those who seem to them to be more lax but are not as they understand they are under no obligation to keep these Jewish feast days that were instituted because of sin and hence why they ended at the cross.

Although the Torah was read every Saturday in the synagogues, the early Gentile Christians were never commanded to be circumcised, or to rest on Saturday as the Jews were (Acts 15:1-21). Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

The above statement is simply not true. Show me from God’s Word where it says the gentiles were not commanded to keep God’s 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandments? If your referring to Col 2:16-17. This is referring to the annual Feast days of Leviticus Chapter 23. Which is talking about the annual Feast and Holy days, New Moon and annual sabbaths that would fall on any day of the week, meat and drink offerings. This is not referring to God’s 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment.

Scripture Support linked
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (1)
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (2)
Colossians 2 (a must read God's Word)

Christians worship God on Sunday (the Lord's Day), because the first day of the week became associated with Christ's resurrection (Matthew 28:1-10; Luke 24:1; John 20:1; Revelation 1:10).

The “Lords Day” has never been Sunday. God’s Word clearly tells us that the “Lords Day” is the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath of God’s 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment (Ex 20:8-11) and that Jesus is the God of creation and the maker of this day. If we break is we are guilty before God of sin (Rom 6:23). There is not one verse in the whole of God’s Word that tells us to Worship God on Sunday. God’s Word tells us though that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath day. It is a commandment of God to His people (Mark 2:28; Ex 20:8-11; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23). Who do we obey God or man? If we love Jesus we must follow Him. If we are following the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God it will be the Word of God that will Judge us in the last days. God’s Sheep hear His Voice. Hope this helps

May God bless everyone.

 

[Stephen63]

The word "repentance" - metanoia as been shown by others simply in the original greek means " to change the mind. to change our thinking - ".

To us it means to change our mind to stop relying on ourselves and our thinking and turn to God. Stop living our own life with our own thinking and come to Christ and let His life live through and in you. Receive all that Jesus did for us in His finished work.

We should be repenting ( changing how we think towards something ) constantly as we see the Lord's true nature, love and grace revealed to and in us.

And yes - this applies to all forms of sinning from unbelief in Christ's work to the slandering of others in the body of Christ

There will always be "fruits" of having a changed mind ( having already repented ) to God but the "fruit" is not the repentance within itself.

True repentance is the "root" before the "fruit" comes.

The fruit will manifest itself in the form of having an exchanged heart because we are a new creation in Christ.

This will also show in behavior as the life of Christ transforms our outward life to reflect what has already happened in our inner man - that new creation in Christ.

Sometimes our religious traditions can "hi-jack" the meanings of words and can present false assumptions.

Here is a video for those that like to watch them that talks about how the English word "repent" got hi-jacked by religion.

Your mentor doesn't believe repentance like you say.

If the Holy Spirit no longer convicts you of sin, how can you repent of anything?

Do you repent with your fleshly abilities?

Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth?

On pages 107-109, Joseph Prince teaches that 1 John 1:5-10 says Christians must only confess their sins once. Afterwards, they can ‘walk in the light´ and no longer need to confess. (Furthermore, because 1 John clearly tells people to confess, Prince says that it is addressed to Gnostics and not believers. He is forced to make this assumption or otherwise admit that 1 John tells believers to confess their sins whenever they are aware of them. I address this point below.)
ii. On page 107- ‘My friend, this is the assurance you can have today: The day you received Christ, you confessed all your sins once and for all.’

Everyone confesses their sins in order to repent of them. Can't have one without the other.

 

[dcontroversal]

Aren't you forgetting something?

God is "able" to do a lot of things. But just because He's able doesn't guarantee He will.

God is able to heal for instance, but He doesn't do it for everyone automatically, does He?

God is able to set christians free of everything, but He doesn't always do it, does He?

Ephesians 3:20 ​

New American Standard Bible
Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,

Yes, God's able to do that. But it doesn't mean He will.

So much for eternal security.

So, in essence you are saying God is a liar....he promised to

1. NEVER forsake us or leave us<----yet you say he will
1. He will finish the work of faith he started in us<---Yet you say he won't
3. Nothing can separate us from the love of GOD<---but something can
4. He began our faith and finishes our faith<---another broken promise you say
5. He that believes has eternal life<---Temporary according to you
6. He seals us with his Spirit which is proof of faith and salvation<---He breaks his seal
7. We are spiritually born of incorruptible seed<--Yet is can be corrupted and we can be UNBORN

etc....At the end of the day....You are in essence saying GOD is a liar....PAY attention to the definition of the word UTTERMOST and quit calling God a liar......

Uttermost

pantelés: all complete, entire​

Original Word: παντελής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pantelés
Phonetic Spelling: (pan-tel-ace')
Short Definition: complete, forever, entirely
Definition: complete, entire, perfect, through all time.

 

[Grace777x70]

Ah, so the Spirit leaves when your faith waivers....now we're getting down to your monumentally flawed doctrine.

Yes..at what point does Christ jump out of us - even though He said He would never leave nor forsake us.

At what point did Jesus become a liar when He told us the Holy Spirit would be in us forever? How many times did Jesus lie to us? A

ccording to those that say our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell - Jesus must have lied quite a bit to us.

How can we trust a being like that - that constantly lies to us? We are not wired by God to trust in that kind of a person which is why this belief that we lose salvation doctrine insists on "words in order to be saved and to keep salvation" - Because they need to do these works because their belief system tells them that God cannot be trusted.

I was in that horrible religion for decades and I found it a very poor substitute for knowing Jesus for who He truly is and for what He has already done for us because of His grace, mercy and the fact that He deeply loves us and values us.

So, if we get sick in our mind with wrong thinking - He remains faithful as our High Priest. The High Priest is the one that stands before God for the people.

True belief is of the heart and we become a new creation in Christ and we are learning how to walk in Him and He does not throw us into hell because we haven't learned about it yet.

The unbelief in Christ's work astounds me. No wonder the Lord said to a guy one time - "I want you to be a missionary for Me." The guy said "Where Lord?"

The Lord said - "right where you are - I am sending you to teach and preach the unbelieving Christians to believe in Me."

 

[LoveGodForever]

No one tries and teach the keeping of the 613 ceremonial laws. The question is does the New covenant include the 10 commandments or were they nailed to the cross?
I believe they have been nailed to the cross. However the laws are still in effect on this world. The difference is that God's children have diplomatic immunity because we are called to be His Ambassadors. However We do not use our freedom to sin but to proclaim the message our Father has entrusted us to tell the world of His love and redemption plan.

Hi Ariel,

Have you considered the following? Where does not say anywhere in God's Word that God's 10 commandments finished? The Word of God however does say the following;

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God himself (Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 32:16; Ex 20:1-22; Ex 31:18; Deut 4:13) God Law was to be separate from everything else (including the laws of Moses). God’s Law was placed inside the Ark of the Covenant the laws of Moses were written in a book and placed at the side of the Ark of the Covenant (Deut 10:5; Deut 31:24; 25). Whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12). It is the foundation of the Judgement were all of us will be Judged in the last days (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31) God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Ex 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matt 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Gal 3:24; Rev 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12; ) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Rom 13:10). Still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc, etc.) God’s people obey it through faith (Rev 14:12)

There is no diplomatic immunity for someone breaking God’s Law because whoever you are the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). The Sabbath is one of God’s 10 commandments. You break it you commit sin (1John 3:4). There is not one scripture in ALL of the Word of God that says God’s Law (10 commandments) including the Sabbath is not a requirement of God’s people. THat is not to say that salvation is through the Law of God. It is by faith in the Word of God (Jesus) working in us to do His will. Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man in place of the Word of God. The only decision left for us is do we obey God or do we obey man? The Word of God will Judge us in the last days.

God bless

 

[Grace777x70]

Oh goody! I get to reach Christ and the gospel again! Thank you Lord!

Some people have an evangelical anaphylaxis event in their minds when they hear that the Holy Spirit does not "convict" the believer of sins because we have been taught differently.

The Holy Spirit convicts/convinces the believer of the righteousness that is in us which indirectly points to the "works of the flesh" that we need to repent of ( change our minds on how we view them ).

For example things like malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ.

His life that is in us because of righteousness causes the works of the flesh to drop off us as we "become" who we really are in Christ in our new man - the new creation.

This is "walking by the spirit" which will stop the flesh from fulfilling "it's" desires.

The word " convict/reprove/convince/expose" in question has many meanings attached to it as well.

It is only used 1 time in KJV as "convict"....it is used more often with the word "to reprove/rebuke/convince/expose"...the word needs to be looked at in the "context" that it is used...

It is a revealing of things.....to the world the Holy Spirit reveals/convinces/expose their sin of unbelief in Jesus..

To the believer He reveals/convinces/expose that they are the righteousness of Christ because He went to the Father to stand as an Advocate.

John 16:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world ( unbelievers ) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they ( unbelievers ) do not believe in Me;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you ( believers ) no longer see Me;

1 John 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

[SUP]2 [/SUP] and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


Here are a few examples of the same exact word used in scripture...as one can clearly see....this word has many uses depending on the context.

1 Corinthians 14:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

Titus 1:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Matthew 18:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

John 8:46 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

So, we can clearly seen the Greek word translated once in the KJV as "convict" really means to expose, reveal, convince people of something.

 

[LoveGodForever]

I answered your question about loving Jesus in the past when I gave you my testimony so I am not into your games nor will I fall for your games. I'm also not going to fall for your spiritual manipulation attempts as I have told you many times also in the past. "If we love Jesus - then you will keep His commandments" - in a deceived Judaizers mind that means that you need to follow the Sabbath as in the Old Testament or you are sinning and dis-obeying God. What is really being said - is that if you don't agree with the Judaizers deceived beliefs then you are not believing the word of God nor do you love Jesus. We don't fall for that religious nonsense of spiritual manipulation. We are not ignorant of the enemies devices my friend and I told you we will not fall for this Judaizing and the perverting of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ. We will not fall for your telling Christians that they are sinning and dis-obeying God because they don't observe the Sabbath day as in the Old Testament way - no matter how much you try to sugar-coat it. We will not desert Christ.

Hi Grace777,

The above is the fruit of what you believe and you must close your eyes to God’s Word to hold on to your traditions and the teachings of man. I must follow the Word of God because I love Jesus because He first loved me. I believe God’s Word so I must follow Him. I can tell you today I love Jesus because I am a sinner and because I have faith in His Word he is working in my life. It is only the Word of God that will judge us in the last days and will determine if anyone is following Jesus or not. God’s Law (10 commandments) shows us our sins. If we break anyone of them (including the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Ex 20:8-11) we are indeed breaking God’s Law and will be judged by it. Only God’s Word matters. Our choice is weather of not we believe and by faith obey God or if we do not believe God to and ignore God’s Word to follow our own traditions. Jesus says we shall know them by their fruits. I pray for you my friend. Back soon

God bless all

 

[royalscot]

Originally Posted by UnderGrace

What is repentance ?

acts 2 , when wrong quoted by christian religions , as justification to repent of sin, because of wrong translation of the bible.
all were jewish at penticoste.

and why they are playing ping pong with scripture.

 

[Grace777x70]

Scripture isolated can cause all sorts of opinions and traditions to be put in place:

If we pay attention to the ..we and our and the you in 1 John chapter 1 we will discover some great truths. These may "conflict" with some our church teachings and traditions.



"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we (believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"

(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.

"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics ) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our (believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).

This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ.

Second, he is saying that there are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. ( just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )

"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you ( unbelievers ):God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).

John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).


"If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).

In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.

"If we ( believers )walk in the light, as He is in the light, we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin" (verse 7).

In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin because we are in Christ. This is always in present tense.

Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.

"If we ( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).

John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives.

He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.

However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

In other words, if the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness.

In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future.

Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!

We become a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4:24

"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).

Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.

The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.

However we can all learn from all scriptures including 1 John 1 - I especially love the truth of verse 7 - the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin because we are in Him.

 

[Stephen63]

So, in essence you are saying God is a liar....he promised to

1. NEVER forsake us or leave us<----yet you say he will
1. He will finish the work of faith he started in us<---Yet you say he won't
3. Nothing can separate us from the love of GOD<---but something can
4. He began our faith and finishes our faith<---another broken promise you say
5. He that believes has eternal life<---Temporary according to you
6. He seals us with his Spirit which is proof of faith and salvation<---He breaks his seal
7. We are spiritually born of incorruptible seed<--Yet is can be corrupted and we can be UNBORN

etc....At the end of the day....You are in essence saying GOD is a liar....PAY attention to the definition of the word UTTERMOST and quit calling God a liar......

Uttermost

pantelés: all complete, entire​

Original Word: παντελής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pantelés
Phonetic Spelling: (pan-tel-ace')
Short Definition: complete, forever, entirely
Definition: complete, entire, perfect, through all time.

No, I'm now saying you're telling lies, saying I said that when I didn't.

I won't call God a liar, but if you don't quit twisting what I say, I'm gonna call you one.

I wrote that plainly, so you didn't have a problem understanding it.

Nobody can be that stupid, can they?

 

[royalscot]

Hi Grace777,

The above is the fruit of what you believe and you must close your eyes to God’s Word to hold on to your traditions and the teachings of man. I must follow the Word of God because I love Jesus because He first loved me. I believe God’s Word so I must follow Him. I can tell you today I love Jesus because I am a sinner and because I have faith in His Word he is working in my life. It is only the Word of God that will judge us in the last days and will determine if anyone is following Jesus or not. God’s Law (10 commandments) shows us our sins. If we break anyone of them (including the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Ex 20:8-11) we are indeed breaking God’s Law and will be judged by it. Only God’s Word matters. Our choice is weather of not we believe and by faith obey God or if we do not believe God to and ignore God’s Word to follow our own traditions. Jesus says we shall know them by their fruits. I pray for you my friend. Back soon

God bless all

"18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.2 Corinthians 10

 

[LoveGodForever]

Have we ever read where Jesus said that the priests who stand in the temple - break the Sabbath which is in the Law?...or that David and his men ate of the bread which was in the temple?Matthew 12:2-6 (NASB) [SUP]2 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath." [SUP]3 [/SUP]But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, [SUP]4 [/SUP]how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? [SUP]5 [/SUP]"Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?[SUP]6 [/SUP]"But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. Why were the priest not breaking the Sabbath law - because they were in the temple. Why did David be able to eat of the bread? Because he was in the temple.This is why the true believer in Christ will not be breaking any Sabbath law because we are in the temple. Know you not that you are the temple of God?
Those that are in the temple are not breaking the Sabbath law by doing work because we are in Christ. He is the true temple of God as we are in union with Him and are one in the spirit.Jesus Himself is our true Sabbath rest. Jesus said that all the law and the prophets speak of Him. All the law - including the Sabbath day as outlined in the Old Testament is a shadow of the real substance which is Christ Himself. Col. 2:16-17Until we understand the reality of our union with Christ and what that means - we will be resorting to going back to the Law and trying to live by our own flesh and we are exchanging Christ Himself for the law.

Hi Grace777

You need to hold on to your interpretation of the scriptures to keep your traditions. Even though God's Word says the opposite. God's Word teaches that Jesus came to teach us about the Sabbath when he was with us. The Jews had placed so many restrictions on the Sabbath commandment that it had become a burden to the people and was nearly impossible to keep (Luke 13:14; John 5:10-18; 9:16). Jesus taught the man-made restrictions and traditions the Jews were putting on the Sabbath was not the purpose of the Sabbath. One greater than the Sabbath was standing there in front of them.

Jesus was the maker of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)

(1) He taught us that the Sabbath was made for mankind and that mankind was not created for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27). Jesus came to teach us that (2) He is the Lord of the Sabbath and that this is the Lord's Day (Mark 2:28). Jesus came to (3) teach us that it is ok to enjoy the Sabbath and to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14) (4) Jesus taught and fellow shipped with his people on the Sabbath (Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56). Similar verses can be shown for the apostles after the death of Jesus (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

More Scripture support on the Shadows?

Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (1)
Col 2 Sabbaths and Shadows of things to come (2)
Colossians 2 (a must read God's Word)

Now we should believe you over God’s Word why (please you scripture)?

 

[Stephen63]

Yes..at what point does Christ jump out of us - even though He said He would never leave nor forsake us.

At what point did Jesus become a liar when He told us the Holy Spirit would be in us forever? How many times did Jesus lie to us?

Revelation 3 ​

15‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

God doesn't "jump out of us"..... But He can "spit us outta Him"

That's what happens to the church/person that puts a bad taste in His mouth.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Revelation 3 ​

15‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

God doesn't "jump out of us"..... But He can "spit us outta Him"

That's what happens to the church/person that puts a bad taste in His mouth.

Absolutely, but it is only because we jump out of His care through Unbelief or not believing His Word. Like the children of Israel did in Hebrews Chapter 4.

God bless

 

[PHart]

Thank you,

Sometimes people think it means remorse for ones sins and then stopping a sinful lifestyle, however that does not take the work of the cross into account, it only looks at oneself and feeling bad and changing one's lifestyle.

The gospel of forgiveness, repentance, and, 'then stopping a sinful lifestyle', all go hand in hand:

"...that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

19“So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. " (Acts 26:18-20 NASB)

 

[Stephen63]

Scripture isolated can cause all sorts of opinions and traditions to be put in place:

If we pay attention to the ..we and our and the you in 1 John chapter 1 we will discover some great truths. These may "conflict" with some our church teachings and traditions.



"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we (believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"

(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.

"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics ) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our (believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).

This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ.

Your mentor Joseph Prince teaches that gnostic garbage.

John always spoke to believers, just like all the other epistles do.

 

[royalscot]

held and cut off by a new covenant, good to know, god will not be mocked, by human interpretation of logus word.

condemnation by your own interpretation, must be hard ,for all them, that claim that they can see.

yet never understood to test, all scripture , by speakers and preachers.

 

[PHart]

Ah, so the Spirit leaves when your faith waivers....now we're getting down to your monumentally flawed doctrine.

No.
The Spirit leaves when you reject him in willful and determined unbelief, not doubt.

 

[Grace777x70]

I like to use this website from time to time as it talks about grace-based realities in Christ. It also has a place at the bottom where people can ask questions. I often learn a lot from reading them as well.

This website is allowed by CC as I have posted from it many times when referring to articles that talk about the love and grace of God for us.

Some that hate the message might cry foul - but it's to be expected because it may "conflict" with their religious beliefs and of course if we believe that our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell - this will be offensive to us.

Are You Lukewarm?



Here’s a favorite question of some preachers: “Are you a lukewarm believer?” You’d better have a good answer because if you’re not sure – “Am I lukewarm?” – Jesus may spew you out of his mouth.

What does that mean? He’ll reject you, you apathetic Christian! You may think you’re saved, but if you’re not on fire for God, you’ll end up in the fire!
What diabolical nonsense.

First, you are a part of Christ’s body and Jesus doesn’t spew out body parts. Ever vomited up a kidney? A toe? It’s a ridiculous notion, yet this is exactly what the fearmongers say will happen!

Second, being lukewarm has nothing to do with how enthusiastic you are. When I was a young man, free from the responsibilities of fathering or paying the bills, I thought I was on fire for God.

That basically meant I went to a lot of meetings and volunteered for a lot of activities. Nothing wrong with that, but you’re deluding yourself if you think busyness impresses the Lord.

Defining lukewarmness in terms of zeal is fraught with problems. What is hot to you is lukewarm to someone else. (You haven’t led as many people to Jesus as Billy Graham? Get out of my sight you lukewarm loser!)

Zeal can be a mask for works-righteousness. (As if that impresses the Lord!) And while most would say it’s better to be a little bit on fire for God – “Hey, at least I’m trying” – Jesus would prefer you were stone cold:

I know what you have done; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were either one or the other! (Rev 3:15, GNB)

What does it mean to be lukewarm?

Lukewarm is what you get when you mix hot and cold. To be lukewarm is to mix that which shouldn’t be mixed. For instance, mix the white-hot love of God with the stone-cold demands of the law and you’ll fall from grace (see Galatians).

Mix up your husbands by running back to the law and you’re cheating on Jesus (see Roman 7).

Ironically, the mixture of unmixable things is a leading cause of complacency in the church.

If Christians are lukewarm in the modern sense, it’s because they are lukewarm in the Biblical sense. They’ve been paralyzed and neutered by the irreconcilable demands of crippling mixture.

The disease of lukewarmness results from the following unhealthy activities:

• Mixing the new covenant of grace with the old covenant of works

• Mixing the new law written on our hearts with the old law written on tablets

• Mixing the rest of the new with the ceaseless demands of the old

• Mixing the unbreakable promises of God with the brittle promises of man

• Mixing the bondage of Sinai with the liberty of Zion (Gal 4:31)

• Mixing the ministry that condemns (2 Cor 3:9) with the ministry of no condemnation (Rom 8:1)

In the pursuit of balance, mixed-up preachers give mixed-up messages that lead to mixed-up believers. It’s like getting poison from the doctor.

Why does Jesus prefer us cold to lukewarm?

Live with a mixture of the old and new and you’ll reap the benefits of neither. You won’t enjoy the grace that God has provided, nor will you heed the law that points to Jesus.
The number one cause of lukewarmness is cheap law, namely the delusion that God accepts anything less than perfection.

Cheap law may be packaged as the pursuit of holiness or spiritual disciplines.

It could be an emphasis on the sacrifices you bring or the promises you make, but its fruit always has the nauseating stench of self-righteousness. “Look what I’m doing for you Lord!”

The remedy for lukewarmness is the sort of stone-cold assessment that Jesus gives to the Laodiceans:

You make me want to vomit. You brag, “I’m rich, I’ve got it made, I need nothing from anyone,” oblivious that in fact you’re a pitiful, blind beggar, threadbare and homeless. (Rev 3:16-17, MSG)

Why does Jesus say it’s better to be cold than lukewarm? Because the law that Jesus preached silences proud mouths revealing our need for grace.

How do I become hot?

I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. (Rev 3:18)

Thank God for grace! Because of grace you get to swap your filthy self-righteous rags for the clean robes of Christ’s righteousness. You get to trade your hay, wood, and stubble for the golden treasure that is Jesus himself.

With his salve on your eyes you will see that his sacrifice is a perfectly perfect work that cannot be improved upon.
Want to be hot? Then stop mixing grace with law.

Stop living in the netherworld between two covenants. Stop running back to your old husband Mr. Law. Stop doubting the promises of God. Stop sleeping with the maid of self-effort. Stop striving for balance. Stop trying to replicate what Christ has done.

In short, repent and believe the good news that Jesus Christ has done it all!

Unquote:

Here is the link for the article that has the questions at the bottom of the page if any one is interested.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/07/24/are-you-lukewarm/#prettyPhoto
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