"things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

[Grace777x70]

"things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

What are others thoughts on the "works of the flesh" in Gal. 5:19-21.

I will give you my own thoughts on this subject up front.

If our "eternal security" is based on not doing the works of the flesh as some try to preach - you would think that the term "things like these" would be qualified because don't you think we should know what "these things are"? - if they are going to throw us into hell?

In Gal 5 - "strife" is one in the list too as well as "things like these". What are those things? If someone doesn't know exactly "what exactly these things are" they would go to hell with the interpretation that the list in Gal. 5:19-21 means not going to heaven.

Galatians 5:19-21 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

[SUP]21 [/SUP] envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Inheriting the kingdom of God is not meaning "to go to heaven" in these scriptures. It means to live the quality of life that is in the kingdom now on this earth. The kingdom of God is within us now.

If we live by the flesh we will not receive the benefits that are ours in Christ as sin will distort our view of God, ourselves and others. We need to view Gal 5:19-25 in context with the fruit of the Spirit that brings life to us here on this earth.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

Every man who lives by the flesh, thus producing its works, is excluded from the Kingdom of God (Heaven).

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

Every man who lives by the flesh, thus producing its works, is excluded from the Kingdom of God (Heaven).

I too have heard people say that and after I got saved I went to a Pentecostal church that taught this so I know where it comes from.

At what point does one "lose" righteousness that is Christ's? At what point does the Holy Spirit leave us because we are joined as one spirit with the Lord?

Answer the question below so that we understand what "living after the flesh" looks like in real life:

Let's look at this sin business for a bit. Malice and slandering others in the body of Christ is just as much a sin as living the homosexual lifestyle. ( Gal. 5 )

These are in the exact same list of "works of the flesh".

So, let's say someone has been slandering other people in the body of Christ for years. All of a sudden they die...does this one that was slandering people now not go to heaven?...in your thinking they would go to hell because they have been "living after the flesh"?

Or what about gluttony which is a sin - what if someone has a battle with overeating all the time and they die - do they go to hell because they were not able to overcome this as this is "living after the flesh" too?

What about those that have exhibited "outbursts of anger"? These are also works of the flesh. If they had these for 10 years then died while they had an outburst of anger - would they go to hell now?

These 3 scenarios above would be people "living in the flesh" ( even though they are free in Christ but don't know it yet and haven't grown up in the Lord enough spiritually to overcome them ).

These 3 groups of people in your theology would not be children of God and thus go to hell..is that right?

 

[Blain]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

All I know is that when it comes to works of the flesh Love was stronger when it comes to losing salvation because of our weakness grace was deeper and when it comes to the enemy convincing us that because we were to weak and sinned to much we will go to hell Hope shines brighter.

It would be all to easy for the enemy to convince us that because of our weakness and our sins we are going to hell if we followed the sinless doctrine or the works for salvation doctrine and believe me there was a time when even though I was saved because of this sinless doctrine that was drilled into me I just knew I was going to hell.

People to who preach and teach things like that have no idea the damage they are doing had Jesus not intervened when he did with a dream I would have likely been so convinced that I was not good enough and was going to hell that I likely would have given up entirely.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

All I know is that when it comes to works of the flesh Love was stronger when it comes to losing salvation because of our weakness grace was deeper and when it comes to the enemy convincing us that because we were to weak and sinned to much we will go to hell Hope shines brighter.

It would be all to easy for the enemy to convince us that because of our weakness and our sins we are going to hell if we followed the sinless doctrine or the works for salvation doctrine and believe me there was a time when even though I was saved because of this sinless doctrine that was drilled into me I just knew I was going to hell.

People to who preach and teach things like that have no idea the damage they are doing had Jesus not intervened when he did with a dream I would have likely been so convinced that I was not good enough and was going to hell that I likely would have given up entirely.

I agree - which is why I believe it is so important to preach and teach about the grace and love of God in Christ so that we can grow up in Him knowing that we are secure in Him because of what He has done on the cross and resurrection.

In the same note - there are warnings about living after the flesh which distorts our view of God , ourselves, and others and ruins out witness for the Lord.

Each one of the works of the flesh has a destructive side to it which limits our inheriting of the kingdom of God life while on this earth including "Things like these " ( what ever they are.....I'm sure the Holy Spirit will reveal these to us as we trust in Him )

I say we need to learn what it means to "walk by the spirit" so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires and not be deceived by the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

There are many who think that their conduct does not matter, only their so-called faith in Christ. However, the Truth is, that if we have proper Faith in Christ, our conduct will match our Faith, and as well will match Christ, at least as far as a human being can be brought into such a position. Unfortunately, multiple millions who claim Christ, are basing their hopes on a fool's hope, thinking they cannot be lost irrespective of what they do.

The word "do" as in "they which do such things," is from the Greek "prasso," and means "to do, or to practice." So, the Holy Spirit through Paul is speaking of the habitual practice of such things, which indicates the character of the individual. The Word of God bases its estimation of a person's character, not upon his infrequent, out-of-the-ordinary actions, but upon his habitual ones, which form a true indication of Character. Incidentally, Character is what God knows you are, while reputation is what people think you are.

 

[Blain]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I agree - which is why I believe it is so important to preach and teach about the grace and love of God in Christ so that we can grow up in Him knowing that we are secure in Him because of what He has done on the cross and resurrection.

In the same note - there are warnings about living after the flesh which distorts our view of God , ourselves, and others and ruins out witness for the Lord.

Each one of the works of the flesh has a destructive side to it which limits our inheriting of the kingdom of God life while on this earth including "Things like these " ( what ever they are.....I'm sure the Holy Spirit will reveal these to us as we trust in Him )


I say we need to learn what it means to "walk by the spirit" so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires and not be deceived by the deceitfulness of sin.

Correct sir As I said in the other thread teaching and preaching of living a pure life and to run away from things that make sin is good for correction and growth in Christ it's only when you cross the line of sinless and perfection that you have a false teaching

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

There are many who think that their conduct does not matter, only their so-called faith in Christ. However, the Truth is, that if we have proper Faith in Christ, our conduct will match our Faith, and as well will match Christ, at least as far as a human being can be brought into such a position. Unfortunately, multiple millions who claim Christ, are basing their hopes on a fool's hope, thinking they cannot be lost irrespective of what they do.

The word "do" as in "they which do such things," is from the Greek "prasso," and means "to do, or to practice." So, the Holy Spirit through Paul is speaking of the habitual practice of such things, which indicates the character of the individual. The Word of God bases its estimation of a person's character, not upon his infrequent, out-of-the-ordinary actions, but upon his habitual ones, which form a true indication of Character. Incidentally, Character is what God knows you are, while reputation is what people think you are.

I understand what you are saying and I believe in teaching the grace of God because it is grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and to walk uprightly in this world. Only the proper understanding of the gospel can lead to a true godly life lived by the life of Christ in and through us.

Perhaps it boils down to "What does inherit the kingdom mean?" - does it pertain to this life now while we are on this earth or to some time in the future only - as in going to heaven when one dies?

Could you answer the question in post #3? Thank you.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I too have heard people say that and after I got saved I went to a Pentecostal church that taught this so I know where it comes from.

At what point does one "lose" righteousness that is Christ's? At what point does the Holy Spirit leave us because we are joined as one spirit with the Lord?

Answer the question below so that we understand what "living after the flesh" looks like in real life:

Let's look at this sin business for a bit. Malice and slandering others in the body of Christ is just as much a sin as living the homosexual lifestyle. ( Gal. 5 )

These are in the exact same list of "works of the flesh".

So, let's say someone has been slandering other people in the body of Christ for years. All of a sudden they die...does this one that was slandering people now not go to heaven?...in your thinking they would go to hell because they have been "living after the flesh"?

Or what about gluttony which is a sin - what if someone has a battle with overeating all the time and they die - do they go to hell because they were not able to overcome this as this is "living after the flesh" too?

What about those that have exhibited "outbursts of anger"? These are also works of the flesh. If they had these for 10 years then died while they had an outburst of anger - would they go to hell now?

These 3 scenarios above would be people "living in the flesh" ( even though they are free in Christ but don't know it yet and haven't grown up in the Lord enough spiritually to overcome them ).

These 3 groups of people in your theology would not be children of God and thus go to hell..is that right?

The Bible does not teach sinless perfection. Paul's statement does not mean that if a Christian falls into sin, he thereby loses his Salvation. The idea is a habitual continuation in fleshly lusts, even with every plan to continue in that particular lifestyle. When Paul says that he warned the Galatians of this previously, he reveals that his preaching was never what one might call mere Evangelism, but that it always contained a strong dose of the standard of morality expected from Christians.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

The Bible does not teach sinless perfection. Paul's statement does not mean that if a Christian falls into sin, he thereby loses his Salvation. The idea is a habitual continuation in fleshly lusts, even with every plan to continue in that particular lifestyle. When Paul says that he warned the Galatians of this previously, he reveals that his preaching was never what one might call mere Evangelism, but that it always contained a strong dose of the standard of morality expected from Christians.

So, what is your answer to the question posed in post #3 about "living after the flesh"?

Would those 3 groups of people go to hell as talked about in the post according to your beliefs?

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

So, what is your answer to the question posed in post #3 about "living after the flesh"?

Would those 3 groups of people go to hell as talked about in the post according to your beliefs?

No one goes to hell for acts of sin. People go to hell for rejecting Jesus.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

No one goes to hell for acts of sin. People go to hell for rejecting Jesus.

I agree....

How do we reconcile post #2 with the above statement?

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I agree....

How do we reconcile post #2 with the above statement?

God's prescribe order of victory to enter heaven is Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work. Any other way is Spiritual Adultery. You have rejected Jesus.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

God's prescribe order of victory to enter heaven is Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work. Any other way is Spiritual Adultery. You have rejected Jesus.

I agree...but how do we reconcile post #2. If acts of sin does not send us to hell ( post #11 ) and if we supposedly do not go to heaven because of being stuck in the flesh like gluttony or outbursts of anger before we die ( post #2 ). Is there some other place then?

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I agree...but how do we reconcile post #2. If acts of sin does not send us to hell ( post #11 ) and if we supposedly do not go to heaven because of being stuck in the flesh like gluttony or outbursts of anger before we die ( post #2 ). Is there some other place then?

Those who walk in the spirit will always have shortcomings (acts of sin) until the trump sounds. We must rejoice in whatever Glory we are in. God is the potter and we are the clay. He moves us from glory to glory and faith to faith. No man or woman can change their life without the Holy Spirit. Can an Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can you start doing good, for you have always done evil (Jeremiah 13:23). The scripture says before He formed me in my mothers womb He approved me.

This is why we must understand what justification is and why it is the first subject in the book of Romans. It lays down the foundation as I go through sanctification.

Justification gives me the ability to get back up from every failure no matter how many times and stand up and go through this process and learn it. Justification gives us a legal standing with God that is not cancelled because of the acts of sin. So if I fail at this same thing a thousand times - God forbid! We are a work in progress. Remember Jesus said I did not come to condemn (John 3:17).

Justification is not what we do, and not what I am, and not what I worked for. It is what Jesus did and my faith in it that gives me the standing with God that I need to carry on my Christian experience. Sometime I do it well, and sometimes I do it not so well, but his justifying Grace will not fail unless my faith fails. It is just if I have never sinned and just if I have always obeyed.

 

[PinkDiamond]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I've always thought the keyword in the passage was "practice." Those who "practice " these sins will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. My thought is that we have to make a distinction between sin and even regular failings in a specific area and someone who chooses a pattern of behavior. I have a license to practice dental hygiene. That means I focus on and make a vocation out of doing a very specific and repeated task. I think the same idea can be applied to this passage. This passage and warning doesn't seem to be written to Christians who were beset by faults and struggling. It seems to be a warning to those who did not take sin seriously. I'd also add that I agree with the comment about strife. Strife is a very serious sin. The NT is very clear about how wicked it is to sow discord among believers. I think a person could lose their temper and say something harsh and create strife in a situation. That's very different from those who scheme continuously and try to ruin friendships and destroy the reputation of others. That type of behavior is serious and isn't consistent with the likeness of Christ and having been redeemed.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I've always thought the keyword in the passage was "practice." Those who "practice " these sins will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. My thought is that we have to make a distinction between sin and even regular failings in a specific area and someone who chooses a pattern of behavior. I have a license to practice dental hygiene. That means I focus on and make a vocation out of doing a very specific and repeated task. I think the same idea can be applied to this passage. This passage and warning doesn't seem to be written to Christians who were beset by faults and struggling. It seems to be a warning to those who did not take sin seriously. I'd also add that I agree with the comment about strife. Strife is a very serious sin. The NT is very clear about how wicked it is to sow discord among believers. I think a person could lose their temper and say something harsh and create strife in a situation. That's very different from those who scheme continuously and try to ruin friendships and destroy the reputation of others. That type of behavior is serious and isn't consistent with the likeness of Christ and having been redeemed.

I agree with much of what you have written and all works of the flesh bring with them some sort of destruction.

The word "practice" just means "to do" ( KJV translates this as "do" ) which is in the present tense but I do agree that the connotations is an on-going thing. So, my main question was to do with "What does it mean to inherit the kingdom?" Some think this means "no going to heaven" when we die.

I think a lot of this walking by the flesh thing has a lot to do with the "kind" of gospel that we preach and teach.

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious Christian life that was being preached to them. They loved Jesus " in their heart" but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and were never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only change that is effective is from the true manifestation of the life of Jesus that is already in us - in our new creation and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I believe there are thousands of Christians like this but I also believe the Lord is bringing them back to Him - only this time it will be based on the true knowledge of Him and His love and grace for them.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

The will of God for your life is to have faith exclusively in Christ and the Cross, i.e., finished work ("The blood of Jesus"). And to maintain your faith in that only. Romans 3:28 says, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

The plans of God for your life is not a one size fits all. No, it is customized and just your size. What God calls you to do, He empowers you to do. When God calls you He appoints you. And when He appoints you He anoints you. and when He anoints you and you are divinely positioned, nothing can stop you.

My life plan is customized! Psalm 139:16 You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!

My life plan is good! Jeremiah 29:11 “For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”

My life plan is guaranteed! 1 Thessalonians 5:24 “The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.”

 

[PinkDiamond]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I agree with much of what you have written and all works of the flesh bring with them some sort of destruction.

The word "practice" just means "to do" ( KJV translates this as "do" ) which is in the present tense but I do agree that the connotations is an on-going thing. So, my main question was to do with "What does it mean to inherit the kingdom?" Some think this means "no going to heaven" when we die.

I think a lot of this walking by the flesh thing has a lot to do with the "kind" of gospel that we preach and teach.

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious Christian life that was being preached to them. They loved Jesus " in their heart" but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and were never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only change that is effective is from the true manifestation of the life of Jesus that is already in us - in our new creation and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I believe there are thousands of Christians like this but I also believe the Lord is bringing them back to Him - only this time it will be based on the true knowledge of Him and His love and grace for them.

I'm not sure I can fully answer this. I see what you are getting at. I've always read this passage and assumed that it was referring to eternal life in heaven. From the way I've read the verses, I've always seen these types as being those who live and abide in sin with no concern. To me, that would be the attitude of one that does not truly love Christ nor respect his sacrifice and grace. I would see that attitude as a failure to truly believe in Christ. I wouldn't see they had met the criteria for eternal life (faith in Christ). I could be wrong, but I always look at the tone of the passage. When it is very corrective and strong it seems to imply that the listeners need a strong wake up call. Those who are broken or at their wits end struggling don't need such a strong admonition.

I agree with your second point. We can only truly be freed from sin by focusing on Christ and seeking grace. We can't be saved from ourselves through resolve only. So yes, I believe that legalism frustrates and alienates many. Legalism is also a lack of faith in Christ.

 

[stonesoffire]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

Rom 6:11 So also continually count yourselves both dead to sin and alive to God in Messiah Yeshua.

Here is another scripture not understood correctly by us. I labored under this one until recently.

We are already dead to the power of sin. A dead person can do nothing.

Only an alive person to God can do anything for that is what we are now.

Reckon it is so when temptation rises. Don't obsess over failures. Just repent and go on.