"things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

[Splagna]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

Inheriting the kingdom of God is not meaning "to go to heaven" in these scriptures. It means to live the quality of life that is in the kingdom now on this earth. The kingdom of God is within us now.

Not going to heaven is exactly what Paul means. Jews at that time took scriptures like the one quoted below to mean that one day God would destroy Israel’s enemies and set up His kingdom forever,



“In that day,” declares the Lord,
“I will assemble the lame
And gather the outcasts,
Even those whom I have afflicted.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“I will make the lame a remnant
And the outcasts a strong nation,
And the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion
From now on and forever. Micah 4:6f (all Scripture quotes from NASB)



Seeking a future kingdom is why the disciples asked the glorified Jesus, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6)



In Galatians 5:21 the Greek verb translated “shall not inherit” (ληρονομέω/klēronomeō) is future, referring to the future coming of the kingdom of God. In this context it does not refer to quality of life here, rather, it refers to exclusion from God’s eternal kingdom.



And “to inherit” shouldn’t be glossed over, either. “In these last days [God] has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world (Hebrews 1:2), and “the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel…(Ephesians 3:6).



In this brief survey it can be seen Christ is heir of all things and we are fellow heirs with Him. If believers are heirs, then what do they inherit? After the millennium Revelation 21 describes the new heaven and new earth (God’s eternal kingdom) and we’re told:

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

When Paul writes in Galatians 5:21, “those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” he is writing whoever practices the aforementioned list will not spend eternity with God.

What are those things?

For a more comprehensive list see: 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; Colossians 3:5; 1 Timothy 1:9-10. Paul’s lists sum up the sins, that if practiced, would exclude one from God’s kingdom, and many of these sins got an OT Israelite banned from the community and sacrificial system or stoned (for Colorado readers “stoned” means killed).

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

Not going to heaven is exactly what Paul means. Jews at that time took scriptures like the one quoted below to mean that one day God would destroy Israel’s enemies and set up His kingdom forever,



“In that day,” declares the Lord,
“I will assemble the lame
And gather the outcasts,
Even those whom I have afflicted.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“I will make the lame a remnant
And the outcasts a strong nation,
And the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion
From now on and forever. Micah 4:6f (all Scripture quotes from NASB)



Seeking a future kingdom is why the disciples asked the glorified Jesus, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6)



In Galatians 5:21 the Greek verb translated “shall not inherit” (ληρονομέω/klēronomeō) is future, referring to the future coming of the kingdom of God. In this context it does not refer to quality of life here, rather, it refers to exclusion from God’s eternal kingdom.



And “to inherit” shouldn’t be glossed over, either. “In these last days [God] has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world (Hebrews 1:2), and “the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel…(Ephesians 3:6).



In this brief survey it can be seen Christ is heir of all things and we are fellow heirs with Him. If believers are heirs, then what do they inherit? After the millennium Revelation 21 describes the new heaven and new earth (God’s eternal kingdom) and we’re told:

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

When Paul writes in Galatians 5:21, “those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” he is writing whoever practices the aforementioned list will not spend eternity with God.




For a more comprehensive list see: 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; Colossians 3:5; 1 Timothy 1:9-10. Paul’s lists sum up the sins, that if practiced, would exclude one from God’s kingdom, and many of these sins got an OT Israelite banned from the community and sacrificial system or stoned (for Colorado readers “stoned” means killed).

I understand your opinion and I learned that way in my Pentecostal upbringing.

Of course it's going to be future as far as "not inheriting or acquiring of the kingdom life goes". If I live in worry and fear - this will show up in a loss of peace in my future. So, it all has to be future tense in order for the structure of the sentence to make any sense.

As far as the lists go of people - that is describing who they are - their identity.

For example: 1 Cor. 6:9-11 is showing the contrast of identities between the unrighteous and the righteous.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

[SUP]10 [/SUP] nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God
.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

This is showing the two identities - the unrighteous and the righteous - the righteous are the ones in Christ. - but you are "justified" which means declared righteous.

Col 3:5-10 talks about the same thing only here Paul says - you were once "living in them " which was their old identity - now they are in Christ so Paul talks about putting on Christ now.

In other words - be who you are now in Christ - a new creation created in righteousness and holiness. Awake to righteousness and sin not. Awake to who you really are now in Christ.

I love your reference to the Colorado people and being stoned...lol..good one. You, myself and others are entitled to our own opinions in this matter too my brother.

Personally I like to preach and teach the gospel of the grace of Christ which is the gospel for it is the power of God for salvation. I believe we need to hear the gospel every day.

The revelation of Christ Himself brings the grace needed to live in this world until we see Him face to face.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Splagna]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I understand your opinion and I learned that way in my Pentecostal upbringing.

Inheriting the kingdom of God is not meaning "to go to heaven" in these scriptures. It means to live the quality of life that is in the kingdom now on this earth. The kingdom of God is within us now.

Your above opinion is what I'm taking issue with. In Galatians 5:21 Paul is teaching that those practicing the sins he has listed will not inherit the eschatological kingdom of God, which by its very nature is eternal life. I agree Paul is talking about those with an unrighteous identity, and those with that identity won't inherit the kingdom of God.

I also agree it is far better for the Christian to focus on grace. I'd rather focus on Galatians 5:22 and 23, however, to lead someone to believe they can practice the Galatians 5:19-21 sins is dangerously deceiving.

And who gives a hoot what the opinion is of the Pentecostals or anyone else. The real question is what is God's opinion as revealed through the inspired writers.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

Your above opinion is what I'm taking issue with. In Galatians 5:21 Paul is teaching that those practicing the sins he has listed will not inherit the eschatological kingdom of God, which by its very nature is eternal life. I agree Paul is talking about those with an unrighteous identity, and those with that identity won't inherit the kingdom of God.

I also agree it is far better for the Christian to focus on grace. I'd rather focus on Galatians 5:22 and 23, however, to lead someone to believe they can practice the Galatians 5:19-21 sins is dangerously deceiving.

And who gives a hoot what the opinion is of the Pentecostals or anyone else. The real question is what is God's opinion as revealed through the inspired writers.

I agree...I was mentioning where I heard that interpretation from - that people don't go to heaven - from my Pentecostal background. I was taught some good things from that association with them and some bad things too...

The term "inherit the eschatological kingdom of God" is not in the text. That is an opinion and people are entitled to think that if they choose to.

I think that if people practice any of those things in Gal. 5:19-21 - it will bring destruction. I see no difference in the list of behaviors that exhibit themselves as strife and division causing, envying, outbursts of anger or homosexual activity...etc. These all are "works of the flesh" and are not from our Father.

We religious people love to "categorize" the sins that "we don't do" as being the sins that send people to hell. They may not participate in homosexual activity but they will exhibit malice and slander and cause strife at the drop of a hat and think nothing of it.

I agree that any teaching that says it is ok to do any of these things is destructive and deceiving but I don't think we should water down the gospel because we are afraid of some people thinking it's ok to live like that.

If no one says to us "What? Are you saying we can sin all we want now because of grace?" If no one is saying that when we preached the gospel - then we have not preached it like Paul did because he had to answer that accusation a few times because people mis-undertstood what he was saying.

If our eternal security was based on these on the list - I would want to know "And things like these" are....I would want to know exactly what "those things are". That was one of my questions in the OP.

My current belief is that it does not refer to eternal damnation for the person that is in Christ but relates to the quality of life on this earth. I also believe it might have something to do with assignments/authority in the kingdom later in eternity too...but I haven't any real revelation on that yet - have you?

 

[pottersclay]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

[FONT=&quot]41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Might want to rethink your position grace....[/FONT]

 

[Splagna]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

The term "inherit the eschatological kingdom of God" is not in the text. That is an opinion and people are entitled to think that if they choose to.

The term eschatological isn’t in the text--I added it. However, the kingdom of God is eschatological as was demonstrated rather concisely in post #41. My point is that NT writers like Paul saw a future and eternal reign of God that the children of God will inherit at the end of the age. Your position skirts or denies that Paul viewed the kingdom of God as eternal.

I think that if people practice any of those things in Gal. 5:19-21 - it will bring eternal destruction

Edited it for you.

We religious people love to "categorize" the sins that "we don't do" as being the sins that send people to hell. They may not participate in homosexual activity but they will exhibit malice and slander and cause strife at the drop of a hat and think nothing of it.

Paul categorized the sins in Galatians 5. Not religious people. Anyone committing one of those sins while criticizing someone practicing another would be a hypocrite.

I agree that any teaching that says it is ok to do any of these things is destructive and deceiving but I don't think we should water down the gospel because we are afraid of some people thinking it's ok to live like that.

Water down the Gospel? It’s watering down the Gospel to suggest a Christian doesn’t have the power to refrain from this kind of behavior.

If our eternal security was based on these on the list - I would want to know "And things like these" are....I would want to know exactly what "those things are". That was one of my questions in the OP.

Many Christians believe that anyone practicing these sins weren’t really saved in the first place. What I tried to do is suggest in the earlier post that “and things like these” are found in the other so-called sin lists that I included at the end of the post. Paul’s list in Galatians isn’t all inclusive and may be why he added “and things like these.” I'm suggesting He could have written, “see my other writings for a more complete list.”

My current belief is that it does not refer to eternal damnation for the person that is in Christ but relates to the quality of life on this earth. I also believe it might have something to do with assignments/authority in the kingdom later in eternity too...but I haven't any real revelation on that yet - have you?

By carefully using the historical/grammatical method of interpretation, it seems very difficult to prove that Paul is not teaching eternal damnation for those who practice sins on this list. I do agree that living by kingdom principles results in quality of life in the here and now. And I do believe anyone practicing these sins can repent and enter into His love and grace.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Might want to rethink your position grace....

This is the parable of the tares. Tares are not wheat. They look like wheat but they are not the righteous.

We must remember that the kingdom of God is more that just those that are righteous ones who are the true sons of God by grace through faith in Christ. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. The "field" is the world.

Those born of God are not the tares nor do they turn into a tare. The tares were put there from the evil one. The devil has put in tares. They are amongst us even now.

Born again ones are wheat and born from above. These are the true sons of the kingdom. As many as received Him - to them He gave the power to become sons of God.

Matthew 13:36-43 (NASB)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."

[SUP]37 [/SUP] And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,

[SUP]38 [/SUP] and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

[SUP]39 [/SUP]and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

[SUP]40 [/SUP] "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

[SUP]41 [/SUP] "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

[SUP]42 [/SUP] and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Those that do/commit lawlessness are those that are trying to enter in by another door other then by grace through faith in Christ's finished work alone. The righteous are the ones that have received the gift of righteousness which is Christ's righteousness only.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

The term eschatological isn’t in the text--I added it. However, the kingdom of God is eschatological as was demonstrated rather concisely in post #41. My point is that NT writers like Paul saw a future and eternal reign of God that the children of God will inherit at the end of the age. Your position skirts or denies that Paul viewed the kingdom of God as eternal.

I believe that the kingdom of God is eternal and I also believe the fullness of this kingdom will be manifested in the future



I think that if people practice any of those things in Gal. 5:19-21 - it will bring eternal destruction

Edited it for you.

Yes....I see that you added your own opinion - you are entitled to it...



Paul categorized the sins in Galatians 5. Not religious people. Anyone committing one of those sins while criticizing someone practicing another would be a hypocrite.

I agree...they would be a hypocrite. My point was that religious people do not look at outbursts of anger or causing strife so deadly as to go to hell for them as they do for a homosexual lifestyle.


Water down the Gospel? It’s watering down the Gospel to suggest a Christian doesn’t have the power to refrain from this kind of behavior.

I didn't suggest at all that a Christian doesn't have the power to refrain from this behavior. I actually said that it's only by the preaching and teaching of the true grace of God can we walk by the spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.




Many Christians believe that anyone practicing these sins weren’t really saved in the first place. What I tried to do is suggest in the earlier post that “and things like these” are found in the other so-called sin lists that I included at the end of the post. Paul’s list in Galatians isn’t all inclusive and may be why he added “and things like these.” I'm suggesting He could have written, “see my other writings for a more complete list.”

I can understand your theory but if eternal security was dependent on "things like these" - you think he would have told them exactly what they were. After all it is kind of important of people go to hell if they have envy.

The other aspect to this is - Paul wrote the book to the Galatians and they had no "bible" of all Paul's writings like we do today but I do understand your theory.



By carefully using the historical/grammatical method of interpretation, it seems very difficult to prove that Paul is not teaching eternal damnation for those who practice sins on this list. I do agree that living by kingdom principles results in quality of life in the here and now. And I do believe anyone practicing these sins can repent and enter into His love and grace.

I have some questions concerning this. I will post them after this one. I appreciate your discussion.

My comments are in green above. You have good discussion points which can help us to look at these passages. Thank you.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

By carefully using the historical/grammatical method of interpretation, it seems very difficult to prove that Paul is not teaching eternal damnation for those who practice sins on this list. I do agree that living by kingdom principles results in quality of life in the here and now. And I do believe anyone practicing these sins can repent and enter into His love and grace.

Can someone that is currently today having malice, outbursts of anger, envy and slander or is stuck in gluttony ( which are all works of the flesh ) and have not repenting of them yet go to heaven if they died tonight?

I want to know about this "living after the flesh" idea and eternal damnation for those that are joined as one spirit with the Lord.

I believe this question will reveal some things. It is a legitimate question about "real life" situations and living after the flesh.


Let's look at this sinning business and hell damnation even for those that are in Christ - sealed with the Holy Spirit for a bit. Slander is just as much a sin as fornication or living the homosexual lifestyle. ( Gal. 5 )

So, let's say someone has been slandering other people in the body of Christ for a month. All of a sudden they die tonight...does this one that was slandering people now not go to heaven?

What if they were just slandering people for the last week - then died of a heart attack tonight - would they go straight to hell now because they have "not stopped" it before they died?

They were "doing the works of the flesh" as Paul talks about in a few places in his writings.

...in some people's thinking they would go to hell because they have been "living after the flesh"

Or what about gluttony which is a sin - what if someone has a battle with overeating all the time and they die - do they go to hell because they were not able to overcome this as this is "living after the flesh" too?

These 2 scenarios above would be people "living in the flesh" ( even though they are free in Christ but don't know it yet and haven't grown up in the Lord enough spiritually to overcome them by His grace being manifested in their lives ).

These 2 groups of people in some people's theology would not be children of God and thus go to hell..is that right?

These same scenarios can be looked at for all the works of the flesh - like envy, strife, causing divisions, malice, slander,...etc.

I am just asking some real world questions. I am not advocating for people to live like this - I actually say and teach the complete opposite and that we are completely dependent on the Lord Jesus Christ's grace and life in us for living on this earth and for that matter all of eternity. Col. 3:3.

I teach there are many warnings about walking by the flesh and the destruction it brings to us all. Sin is deceitful - it distorts our view of God, our view of others and of ourselves.

But only the proper teaching about Christ and His finished work on the cross and resurrection has the power to bring about real change in us by the power of the Holy Spirit who transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of Christ. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I have never met splagna. I want to hear what more he has to say but I just came in quick before bed.
Nice to meet you splagna.
Good night grace777.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I have never met splagna. I want to hear what more he has to say but I just came in quick before bed.
Nice to meet you splagna.
Good night grace777.

Good night! Bless you!

Yes...splagna brings up good points of view which I believe will help us all to look at this topic.

 

[pottersclay]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

This is the parable of the tares. Tares are not wheat. They look like wheat but they are not the righteous.

We must remember that the kingdom of God is more that just those that are righteous ones who are the true sons of God by grace through faith in Christ. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. The "field" is the world.

Those born of God are not the tares nor do they turn into a tare. The tares were put there from the evil one. The devil has put in tares. They are amongst us even now.

Born again ones are wheat and born from above. These are the true sons of the kingdom. As many as received Him - to them He gave the power to become sons of God.

Matthew 13:36-43 (NASB)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."

[SUP]37 [/SUP] And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,

[SUP]38 [/SUP] and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

[SUP]39 [/SUP]and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

[SUP]40 [/SUP] "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

[SUP]41 [/SUP] "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

[SUP]42 [/SUP] and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Those that do/commit lawlessness are those that are trying to enter in by another door other then by grace through faith in Christ's finished work alone. The righteous are the ones that have received the gift of righteousness which is Christ's righteousness only.

And you think that the conduct Paul is talking about is wheat...don't agree. David is an example of what you seek after.
With much prayer and pleading the Lord gave him mercy. David said that their was no sacrifice that would take his sin away. And he asked God for mercy. If these people practice these sins I doubt is they would even know to ask for mercy.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

And you think that the conduct Paul is talking about is wheat...don't agree. David is an example of what you seek after.
With much prayer and pleading the Lord gave him mercy. David said that their was no sacrifice that would take his sin away. And he asked God for mercy. If these people practice these sins I doubt is they would even know to ask for mercy.

I believe those that are acting with this conduct are walking by the flesh and because of that they will not experience the life that is in us because we are in the kingdom.

David is an example of a man that sought God but was not born-again - nor was he sealed with the Holy Spirit. Nor was he in the New Covenant.

Again I have to ask...if someone has malice toward someone else in the body of Christ for the last 2 months - then die tonight - do they go to hell? This is in the same list as living in sexual sins.

What about quarrels? Quarrels is in the same list as well - imagine "quarreling" with others that day and then you die that night - do they go to hell too for that work of the flesh?

That's why I say "There must be more to this inheriting the kingdom" thing then meets the casual eye.

I fully agree 100% that any behavior associated with those in the list are not godly and which is why I believe in preaching the grace of Christ so that people can come out of walking by the flesh and experience His true life and so that good fruit will come forth from their lives.

I am vehemently against every one in that list - from outbursts of anger, envy, strife, division causing, adultery, homosexual lifestyles - quarrels is even in that list. All of them are works of the flesh and will bring destruction o the believer.

My own personal believe is that God will deal with all of us and discipline us as sons - because we are sons. Will some of us die before our time because of our behavior? Yes!

It may "look" like I'm saying that these works of the flesh are ok - I am not. I am saying the complete opposite - I just don't see where these works of the flesh send one to hell although I was taught that in my religious church upbringing.

 

[Splagna]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

The other aspect to this is - Paul wrote the book to the Galatians and they had no "bible" of all Paul's writings like we do today but I do understand your theory.

True, they didn't have the Bible, but they had Paul and it seems reasonable to believe the original readers could fill in the blanks based on his in person teaching. Most people can cover far more talking than writing.

 

[Splagna]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I have never met splagna. I want to hear what more he has to say but I just came in quick before bed.
Nice to meet you splagna.
Good night grace777.

Thanks. I simply don't have time to spend much time here. At this moment I'm pressing my luck. Perhaps some day I'll be able to fellowship with y'all on a regular basis.

 

[Splagna]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

Can someone that is currently today having malice, outbursts of anger, envy and slander or is stuck in gluttony ( which are all works of the flesh ) and have not repenting of them yet go to heaven if they died tonight?

I want to know about this "living after the flesh" idea and eternal damnation for those that are joined as one spirit with the Lord.

I believe this question will reveal some things. It is a legitimate question about "real life" situations and living after the flesh.


Let's look at this sinning business and hell damnation even for those that are in Christ - sealed with the Holy Spirit for a bit. Slander is just as much a sin as fornication or living the homosexual lifestyle. ( Gal. 5 )

So, let's say someone has been slandering other people in the body of Christ for a month. All of a sudden they die tonight...does this one that was slandering people now not go to heaven?

What if they were just slandering people for the last week - then died of a heart attack tonight - would they go straight to hell now because they have "not stopped" it before they died?

They were "doing the works of the flesh" as Paul talks about in a few places in his writings.

...in some people's thinking they would go to hell because they have been "living after the flesh"

Or what about gluttony which is a sin - what if someone has a battle with overeating all the time and they die - do they go to hell because they were not able to overcome this as this is "living after the flesh" too?

These 2 scenarios above would be people "living in the flesh" ( even though they are free in Christ but don't know it yet and haven't grown up in the Lord enough spiritually to overcome them by His grace being manifested in their lives ).

These 2 groups of people in some people's theology would not be children of God and thus go to hell..is that right?

These same scenarios can be looked at for all the works of the flesh - like envy, strife, causing divisions, malice, slander,...etc.

I am just asking some real world questions. I am not advocating for people to live like this - I actually say and teach the complete opposite and that we are completely dependent on the Lord Jesus Christ's grace and life in us for living on this earth and for that matter all of eternity. Col. 3:3.

I teach there are many warnings about walking by the flesh and the destruction it brings to us all. Sin is deceitful - it distorts our view of God, our view of others and of ourselves.

But only the proper teaching about Christ and His finished work on the cross and resurrection has the power to bring about real change in us by the power of the Holy Spirit who transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of Christ. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

Good question; how does this all work out in practice? But first a side note on gluttony. When I checked this word out in the Greek I had to laugh. The Greek word isγαστήρ. The transliteration into English is gastēr. What an easy vocabulary word to remember. The one who is a glutton emits gast air.

Gastēr is generally understood to mean inner parts and 8 of the 9 times it is used in the NT it is translated “with child” (example Matt. 1:18). Only in Titus 1:12 is it translated “glutton” which is appropriate, since it’s doubtful Paul is calling the Cretans lazy pregnant people.



On a serious note I’d like to suggest we limit our discussion to Paul’s lists, and gluttony didn’t make it on any of the lists. In reality isn’t all sin in a sense a result of the flesh? However, Paul seems to single out particular sins that exclude one from the kingdom of God. Hang in there. Don’t write me of as a heretic, yet.



Paul wrote to the Corinthians, “Who is led into sin without my intense concern” (2 Corinthians 11:29)? So how did Paul handle someone who has been led into sin? Why did he just excommunicate the guy in 1 Corinthians chapter five and not some of the others? I’d suggest clues to the answer are in verses eleven and thirteen of chapter five.



But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother (ὀνομάζω/onomazō) if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one….Remove the wicked man from among yourselves (1 Corinthians 5:11, 13 NASB).



The Greek translated “Remove the wicked man from among yourselves” is a near match to the LXX Greek found in Deuteronomy 17:7. Regarding false prophets Moses wrote, “The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst” (also see Dt. 13:5 and 22:24 for the same phrasing). Paul is following OT principles by removing chapter-five-guy from the Corinthian fellowship. Thankfully, under grace removal was all that was necessary and not death. In chapter 5 Paul’s end game seems redemptive, instead.



In the OT the sacrificial system cleansed the Israelites from sin, except for the sin of defiance.



But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him’” (Numbers 15:30, 31).

The Hebrew word translated “defiantly” in this verse is Ruwm, which is defined by Strongs as meaning to exalt oneself, magnify oneself. The Greek word in the LXX is ὑπερηφανία and Bauer’s A Greek Lexicon of the New Testament defines this word as arrogance, haughtiness, pride.



Paul’s sin lists reflect many of the “defiant” sins of the OT. For example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, 22; Leviticus 24:21; Numbers. 15:32-36; 35:15-34); idolatry (Exodus 22:18, 20; Leviticus 20:1-8; 20:27; Deuteronomy 13:5-15; 17:2-7; 18:9-12); sexual immorality (Leviticus 18:6-30; 20:10-18; 21:9; Deuteronomy 22:20-24).



From the above it appears that Paul took seriously the “defiant” sins found in the OT, because they reflect sins that God finds particularly offensive. Just as many sins in the OT were covered through the sacrificial system, some were not. Likewise, there were plenty of sinners in the Corinthian church, but Paul only chose to excommunicate chapter-five-guy. (It is possible more of the Corinthians may have experienced the same discipline, if they hadn’t repented (note 1 Cor. 3:3).)



Gluttony may be a sin of the flesh, but it and many other trespasses aren’t on the lists like found in Galatians. Isn’t rationalizing by adding or taking away from God’s word putting one’s self in the place of God? That would be called idolatry.



Not sure I did a good job interacting with all your comments, but this is kinda a start.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

Thanks Splagna for your post. I'll look at your post closer later on but I will answer quickly about "gluttony". First I had to laugh at what you found out about the "emitting of gas"...that was a good one.

One could argue that "gluttony" is on the list in Gal. 5 because the Greek word for "licentiousness" means "without restraint , excess" ( sometimes used with sexual appetites but still the core meaning is to be without restraint )

This "without restraint, excess" is from Vine's Dictionary of NT Words.

...and we could use this analogy to say that the "emitting of the gas" can be done "without restraint" too...lol

Thanks for taking the time to give your opinions in the post. I'll take a closer look later on tomorrow. Bless you and have a great night.

 

[pottersclay]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

I believe those that are acting with this conduct are walking by the flesh and because of that they will not experience the life that is in us because we are in the kingdom.

David is an example of a man that sought God but was not born-again - nor was he sealed with the Holy Spirit. Nor was he in the New Covenant.

Again I have to ask...if someone has malice toward someone else in the body of Christ for the last 2 months - then die tonight - do they go to hell? This is in the same list as living in sexual sins.

What about quarrels? Quarrels is in the same list as well - imagine "quarreling" with others that day and then you die that night - do they go to hell too for that work of the flesh?

That's why I say "There must be more to this inheriting the kingdom" thing then meets the casual eye.

I fully agree 100% that any behavior associated with those in the list are not godly and which is why I believe in preaching the grace of Christ so that people can come out of walking by the flesh and experience His true life and so that good fruit will come forth from their lives.

I am vehemently against every one in that list - from outbursts of anger, envy, strife, division causing, adultery, homosexual lifestyles - quarrels is even in that list. All of them are works of the flesh and will bring destruction o the believer.

My own personal believe is that God will deal with all of us and discipline us as sons - because we are sons. Will some of us die before our time because of our behavior? Yes!

It may "look" like I'm saying that these works of the flesh are ok - I am not. I am saying the complete opposite - I just don't see where these works of the flesh send one to hell although I was taught that in my religious church upbringing.

I see where your coming from, my challenge to you was to make sure your not preaching the fuzzy wuzzy Jesus .

I do believe the issues are heaven or hell I don't believe Paul misspoke. Let's pray about it and see where the Lord leads.

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: "things like these..."..What does this mean? Does heaven or hell depend on it?

Good question; how does this all work out in practice? But first a side note on gluttony. When I checked this word out in the Greek I had to laugh. The Greek word isγαστήρ. The transliteration into English is gastēr. What an easy vocabulary word to remember. The one who is a glutton emits gast air.

Gastēr is generally understood to mean inner parts and 8 of the 9 times it is used in the NT it is translated “with child” (example Matt. 1:18). Only in Titus 1:12 is it translated “glutton” which is appropriate, since it’s doubtful Paul is calling the Cretans lazy pregnant people.



On a serious note I’d like to suggest we limit our discussion to Paul’s lists, and gluttony didn’t make it on any of the lists. In reality isn’t all sin in a sense a result of the flesh? However, Paul seems to single out particular sins that exclude one from the kingdom of God. Hang in there. Don’t write me of as a heretic, yet.



Paul wrote to the Corinthians, “Who is led into sin without my intense concern” (2 Corinthians 11:29)? So how did Paul handle someone who has been led into sin? Why did he just excommunicate the guy in 1 Corinthians chapter five and not some of the others? I’d suggest clues to the answer are in verses eleven and thirteen of chapter five.



But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother (ὀνομάζω/onomazō) if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one….Remove the wicked man from among yourselves (1 Corinthians 5:11, 13 NASB).



The Greek translated “Remove the wicked man from among yourselves” is a near match to the LXX Greek found in Deuteronomy 17:7. Regarding false prophets Moses wrote, “The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst” (also see Dt. 13:5 and 22:24 for the same phrasing). Paul is following OT principles by removing chapter-five-guy from the Corinthian fellowship. Thankfully, under grace removal was all that was necessary and not death. In chapter 5 Paul’s end game seems redemptive, instead.



In the OT the sacrificial system cleansed the Israelites from sin, except for the sin of defiance.



But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him’” (Numbers 15:30, 31).

The Hebrew word translated “defiantly” in this verse is Ruwm, which is defined by Strongs as meaning to exalt oneself, magnify oneself. The Greek word in the LXX is ὑπερηφανία and Bauer’s A Greek Lexicon of the New Testament defines this word as arrogance, haughtiness, pride.



Paul’s sin lists reflect many of the “defiant” sins of the OT. For example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, 22; Leviticus 24:21; Numbers. 15:32-36; 35:15-34); idolatry (Exodus 22:18, 20; Leviticus 20:1-8; 20:27; Deuteronomy 13:5-15; 17:2-7; 18:9-12); sexual immorality (Leviticus 18:6-30; 20:10-18; 21:9; Deuteronomy 22:20-24).



From the above it appears that Paul took seriously the “defiant” sins found in the OT, because they reflect sins that God finds particularly offensive. Just as many sins in the OT were covered through the sacrificial system, some were not. Likewise, there were plenty of sinners in the Corinthian church, but Paul only chose to excommunicate chapter-five-guy. (It is possible more of the Corinthians may have experienced the same discipline, if they hadn’t repented (note 1 Cor. 3:3).)



Gluttony may be a sin of the flesh, but it and many other trespasses aren’t on the lists like found in Galatians. Isn’t rationalizing by adding or taking away from God’s word putting one’s self in the place of God? That would be called idolatry.



Not sure I did a good job interacting with all your comments, but this is kinda a start.

To continue my response to your post.

I liked your theory of "defiant sin". I had never thought about it in that way. I can certainly see how this could be involved in some works of the flesh in the lists that Paul gives. Ones like "outbursts of anger" might throw a monkey wrench into it but I can certainly see this "defiance" in a few of them.

The guy in 1 Cor. 5 - I wondered why Paul had singled him out because some of them were doing some really sinful things IMO - like going to temple prostitutes to have sex with them. Paul told them who they were in Christ - don't you know that you belong to Christ? What in common does an unbeliever have with a believer? You are joining yourself as one flesh to a prostitute.

Paul says about the guy in 1 Cor. 5 that they were boasting. What were they boasting about that would cause Paul to say this? Perhaps they were boasting because of grace they can do whatever they want now without any consequences in this life? I don't know - I'm just throwing that idea out there as to why they were boasting in this man's sin.

On the other note about "gluttony" which I talked about in my earlier response can be tied in with "licentiousness which means without restraint" (...and in the passing of gas too...lol ) - I had this article come into my email this morning which addresses that subject.

Is It a Sin for a Christian to Be Obese? — Charisma News


Here is a quote which I thought was talking about "without restraint" and "licentiousness" and then contrasting the fruit of the spirit - self-control.

"In fact, according to Paul, one of the fruits of the spirit is self-control (Gal. 5:23), with the Greek word meaning, "restraint of one's emotions, impulses or desires, self-control" (Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker lexicon). "

Anyway - thanks for the discussion and the "defiant sin" thing is interesting - perhaps the Holy Spirit will give me some revelation on it.