Live by Jesus teachings or Paul's?

JaumeJ · Jan 21, 2017

Once more, on topic, if we live by Jesus or Paul it is the gosple of Jesus christ. This inclu8des study of the Word and our understanding by the Holy Spirit..

When I or anyone has received the Holy Spirit He came with a message to each of us that everything is going to be just fine. This happed to me before I read the Word, but the Holy Spirit led me to read it in a most peculiar way.

I do hope no one in this thread is going to tell me I should not have read the Bible after having received the Holy Spirit within!

You see while going first time through it the Holy Spirit gaveme teachings before I read them when needed to share with anyone who had a question on the very subject.

Please do not try to teach me about my Salvation , study and walk with Jesus Christ, Yeshua, for I know it, Jesus knows it, but you cannot possibly know it, as I do not pretend to know your personal erlationships with Him.......

FreeNChrist · Jan 21, 2017

JaumeJ said:

Once more, on topic, if we live by Jesus or Paul it is the gosple of Jesus christ. This inclu8des study of the Word and our understanding by the Holy Spirit..

When I or anyone has received the Holy Spirit He came with a message to each of us that everything is going to be just fine. This happed to me before I read the Word, but the Holy Spirit led me to read it in a most peculiar way.

I do hope no one in this thread is going to tell me I should not have read the Bible after having received the Holy Spirit within!

You see while going first time through it the Holy Spirit gaveme teachings before I read them when needed to share with anyone who had a question on the very subject.

Please do not try to teach me about my Salvation , study and walk with Jesus Christ, Yeshua, for I know it, Jesus knows it, but you cannot possibly know it, as I do not pretend to know your personal erlationships with Him.......

When did this become your thread? And if the thread allows for an answer of one, or both, or neither, why are you upset that some answer it "neither" and give their Holy Spirit inspired biblical reason for why?

JaumeJ · Jan 21, 2017

Some folks in this thread asking about the teachings of Jesus and of Pul, it has been claimed we are not to live by the teachings of Christ. This sad declaration is based on the fact the truth tat we are to follow His example.

Well, Jesus Christ is the Great Teacher..........
We cannot fully follow His example if we have not been taught by Him or His apostles........apostle here is used as one sent out and include all who are gifted to TEACH.

Anyone declaring we are not to be taught by Jesus Christ is a liar, and knows nothing.

Telll me now, is He teaching those in darkness who will never repent? I think not. He teaches us all constantly, otherwise everyone would be expert on teh Word from Genesis to the final Amen of Revelation, and that honor is held only by One Man in the Flesh, Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ rebuke any who are not saved by HIs blood, yet come to lie about His Word, now, amen. The Blood of Christ be on all who believe Him for sanctification, amen.

Timothy416 · Jan 21, 2017

The true dividing line in Christianity is not according to denomination but the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told his disciples there was much more he wanted to teach them, more than they could now bear, but when the spirit of truth came he would guide them into all truth.
So according to Jesus own words he was limited in what he could actually teach the disciples for the spirit had not yet come upon them.
The spirit had come upon the writers of the epistles and they wrote to those who had received the spirit also, so they could understand what was written to them.
Many today prefer to stick to the teachings in the gospels, laying little emphasis on what follows. Some out rightly reject much of what follows.
I believe the answer as to why this is so can be found in the words spoken by Christ from john ch16

Grace777x70 · Jan 21, 2017

Timothy416 said:

I think it is impossible to teach the true grace and love of God in Christ without responsibility being a fruit of Christ's life manifesting in us.

For it is the grace of God that "teaches" us how to live in this world and to deny ungodliness. Responsibility does not teach us - the grace of Christ which is His life and empowerment teaches us.

To try to mandate and teach responsibility without the foundation of grace through faith alone in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection is folly and leads to the creation of a religion which has the "appearance" of good but denies the power of God to effect real transformation by the Holy Spirit - which we participate in.

For it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. God gives us both the desire and the capability to walk in goodness and life but it all stems from the life of Christ in us being manifested and that comes by grace through faith only.

Timothy416 · Jan 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

I think it is impossible to teach the true grace and love of God in Christ without responsibility being a fruit of Christ's life manifesting in us.

For it is the grace of God that "teaches" us how to live in this world and to deny ungodliness. Responsibility does not teach us - the grace of Christ which is His life and empowerment teaches us.

To try to teach responsibility without the foundation of grace through faith alone in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection is folly and leads to the creation of a religion which has the "appearance" of good but denies the power of God to effect real transformation by the Holy Spirit - which we participate in.

For it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. God gives us both the desire and the capability to walk in goodness and life but it all stems from the life of Christ in us being manifested and that comes by grace through faith only.

In my post, I did firstly stress the need to be grounded in grace.
But i can only repeat, Paul and Christ alongside grace preached responsibility

Grace777x70 · Jan 21, 2017

Timothy416 said:

Yep!...the fruit of living by grace through faith in Christ's finished work will bear much fruit - His fruit and it bring glory to God and manifest His love and grace to others that need Him in this world.

Without the sap of the life of the "Vine" in operation- there is no fruit - no matter how much we try to dictate that they have fruit or try to mimic this fruit.

There are many warnings in scripture that speak of the results that come by walking by the flesh instead of the spirit and it behooves us to be admonished as to the fruit of this living. ( I love the Greek word here for "admonish" which means "to place properly in the mind".

If I take up shooting heroin in my arms - this walking by the flesh will manifest in my life pretty quickly and bring forth death.

Timothy416 · Jan 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

You may not agree with this, no problem, it isn't discussing biblical theology as such.

According to Paul, sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. Paul certainly believed following the true path of grace would bring dramatic results in your life. For the truth of the cross of Christ is full of power.

A person may come to Christ surrender their life to him when they are in despair. They fully accept grace and are totally transformed.
Then Christ requires something of them that has a great cost.
And the convert is now faced with honouring their commitment of surrendering their life to Christ.

It is easier for some to steer clear of grace, and carry on as they are, rather than seeing the dramatic change available through the truth. That way, they are less likely to be asked to pay such a high price to take up their cross and follow Christ

Timothy416 · Jan 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Yep!...the fruit of living by grace through faith in Christ's finished work will bear much fruit - His fruit and it bring glory to God and manifest His love and grace to others that need Him in this world.

Without the sap of the life of the "Vine" in operation- there is no fruit - no matter how much we try to dictate that they have fruit or try to mimic this fruit.

There are many warnings in scripture that speak of the results that come by walking by the flesh instead of the spirit and it behooves us to be admonished as to the fruit of this living. ( I love the Greek word here for "admonish" which means "to place properly in the mind".

If I take up shooting heroin in my arms - this walking by the flesh will manifest in my life pretty quickly and bring forth death.

Well I'm sure you will steer clear of becoming a junkie

Grace777x70 · Jan 21, 2017

Timothy416 said:

Amen....I agree 100% with this assessment to this natural way of thinking which is common in the church today.

To me - the truth is these people that are not " honoring their commitment to Christ" have not been properly taught what happened to them when they received Christ and believed. That they have died on the cross with Christ and that they have been resurrected to newness of life and now are a new creation - "Behold - all things are new."

They have died and their life is hidden with Christ in God now. Not knowing this truth we try to teach people to deny themselves when in fact they should be embracing who they really are now in Christ - that new creation which has been created in righteousness and holiness.

Paul says: Awake to righteousness and sin not. Awake to who you really are now and that righteousness that is in the real you will shine forth and manifest the life of Christ to others.

In my opinion - We have watered down the gospel so much that we have unwittingly taken away it's power to transform us because of erroneous teachings and instead we have created a religion called Christianity which actually denies the work of Christ and thus His grace from operating fully in our lives.

Instead of relying on the grace through faith in Christ's work and His life in us - we replace Him with rules and commandments to follow that "appear" to mimic the description that Christ and Paul give as to what the fruit of an exchanged life looks like.

PeterJens · Jan 21, 2017

For me to live is Christ to die is gain
Phil 1:21

If believers take seriously a few simple steps.
What did Jesus knowingly take on to die on the cross for us?
What is love, and how does hurt and pain and need stop us from loving others?

Being honest with an open heart changes you.
All hypocracy denies the inner life for the outer show and fails.

Christs desire is that we might be child of Heaven born in love, walking in love,
and living our lives serving others. If you do this there is no power in the world
that can stop you.

Timothy416 · Jan 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

I totally agree the teaching of Christ has been watered down to what a few have called a hybrid gospel, and this results in far less dramatic change being seen in individuals, for the power to transform is in grace.
But how much of your life you actually are prepared to surrender to Christ is down to the individual.

A famous evangelist who saw tremendous miracles of healing in their services said, and i quote:

Anyone can see the power in their services I have seen in mine, but it costs everything.

RickyZ · Jan 21, 2017

p_rehbein said:

Because satan loves to sow discord in any way he can

JGIG · Jan 21, 2017

Apologies for not reading through the entire thread, this is a reply to the OP:

The following article is aimed more toward those who preach that Christians should be keeping Old Covenant laws to either gain or maintain salvation, but the same concept applies to those who try to somehow say that there is conflict between what Jesus taught and what Paul or the other Apostles taught, or that we should be 'following' the words of one over the other. No - there is no conflict, one needs simply to rightly divide the words - who they were spoken to, were they spoken before or after the Work of Christ, and are you in Christ or in Adam? Determining the answers to those questions as you read not only the NT, but the whole of Scripture, will help you to rightly discern what the Scriptures are saying =).

I hope you find this to be helpful in sorting out this issue!

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel?

Posted on September 26, 2014 by JGIG

Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel? Are they different? Or are they complementary? Is Paul’s Gospel ‘his’, or is it God’s Gospel embraced by Paul? Are Paul’s writings (and the other apostolic writings in the New Covenant Scriptures) what Jesus alluded to in John 16?

I was asked this question in an email recently:

“Another question, some at hrm [Hebrew Roots Movement/Torah pursuant folks] say there is the gospel of Jesus vs the gospel of Paul. Basically they teach that Paul wrote his own gospel even though Jesus clearly stated after his death burial and resurrection there would be more to come(information).”

My response (edited and expanded for this venue):

That’s a great question! In John 16, Jesus says this:

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Jesus is clearly telling His disciples that there is more truth to come that they, on that side of the Cross, could not, would not understand.

The Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect High Priesthood all needed to be in place before the fullness of the Gospel of Grace could be explained.

With the implications to the Law and Israel’s relationship with it and with God, when you think about it, it kinda had to be Paul to receive that revelation of the Gospel of Grace.

Paul was a Pharisee of the highest reputation, knowing the Law inside and out. For him to embrace the Gospel of Grace, which he proclaimed to be ‘his’ Gospel, was huge. To address that question real quick, Paul, by the end of his letter to the Romans states that it is ‘his’ Gospel, not in an ‘I thought it up and created it’ way, but in an ‘I now embrace this Gospel of Grace as my Good News, applied to my life – the New Covenant, superior to the Old Covenant for which I had such passion’ way.

Note that in Romans 1, Paul says this:

16 For I am not ashamed of >>> the <<< gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

At the beginning of the letter to the Romans it is ‘the’ Gospel, and the letter to the Romans is a treatise on our

>>> need <<< for the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, the
>>> supply <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, and the
>>> results <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike.

And Paul expertly weaves the proper use of the Law and the application and superiority of Grace throughout – at the end proclaiming, as a former Pharisee Law-keeper, that this is *his* Gospel – a Gospel that he embraces *himself*, after having gone through the issues of Law and Grace point by point throughout the letter (and also in his other letters).

Now read Paul’s closing comments in Romans 16:

25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages 26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations,

>>> according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— <<<

27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.

So the Gospel that Paul preached was not a gospel apart from Christ’s, but Paul’s and the other apostolic New Covenant writings were the fulfillment of what Christ said in John 16.

Paul minces no words here when establishing the source and authority for what he was teaching to the Galatians:

11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.
12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it,

>>> but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. <<<

13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16

>>> was pleased to reveal his Son to me, <<<

in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

One thing to note here, as well, is that Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth would point to and glorify Christ – not to point to and glorify the Law, but to Christ, which is what Paul and the other apostles do all throughout the New Covenant Scriptures.

God was no longer relating to mankind – nor was He desiring mankind to relate to Him – through the Law, but through the Work and Person of God in the flesh, Christ Jesus.

So Paul (and the others) were not writing their own ‘gospels’; they were carrying out the fulfillment of Jesus’ words in John 16 – they were receiving that further information that could be understood on the side of the Cross where they now lived and we do too – revealing what was actually accomplished at the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and with the High Priesthood of Christ – and writing it down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The point of this post is to show that Paul does not contradict the Gospel of Christ, but by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, explains it.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (from John 16)

Paul, in particular, expertly goes back to the Law and the Prophets and shows how the Old Covenant shadows give way to the New Covenant realities in Christ.

So the next time a Law ‘keeper’ tries to tell you that Paul’s Gospel is either ‘misunderstood’ (those who try to twist Paul’s words to support Torah observance for believers) or a ‘different’ gospel from Jesus’ Gospel (those who reject Paul’s writings outright), point them to John 16!

(I found the illustration at a pro-Islam think tank site, btw. Funny, they use the same arguments that HRMers tend to use!)

Grace and peace to you in our Lord, Jesus Christ!
-JGIG

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PeterJens · Jan 21, 2017

Jesus fulfilled to the law by walking sinlessly and dying on the cross.
Without the cross and His death Moses law stood forever.
After the cross, the law of Christ stood.

Jesus accomplished everything, so changed our opportunity of fellowship and
communion with the most high. The baptism of the Holy Spirit became a reality,
which before had not been true.

So though Jesus abolished the law of Moses we are slaved to righteousness,
bound to follow purity, holiness and blamelessness. But this is a choice of
the will, putting on the new self and putting to death the things of the old self.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.
Col 3:5-8

Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Col 3:9-10

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
col 3:12-14

Dagallen · Jan 21, 2017

Yes I believe God inspired Paul to write but was everything Paul wrote, was everything a commandment from the Lord ? No !

MadebyHim · Jan 23, 2017

Jesus all the way, here are some teachings of Jesus.
Luke 6:17-35(on love)
Matthew 6:14, Luke 6:37(on forgiveness)
Matthew 5:41, Luke 6:30-34(on giving)
Mathew 5:27-28(on lust)
Matthew 6:19-24, Mark 10:21, Luke 12:15,18:25(wealth)
Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11(on divorce)
Matthew 19:10-12,( on marriage vs castration)
Matthew 5:29-8:30, Mark 9:45(on self mutilation)
Matthew 5:17-20( on the law of Moses)
Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:49(on peace)
Matthew 10:35, Luke 12:51-14:26(on family)
Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:22(on faith)
Matthew 6:5-13( on prayer)
Matthew 7:3-5(on hypocrisy)
Matthew 5:38-39(on self-defense)
Matthew 7:6(on dogs and pigs)
Matthew 25:31-46(on hell)
Matthew 5:21-7:26(on anger and insults)

Blik · Jan 23, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

We are saved by the grace of God the Father through the life of Christ.

God is within us in the form of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit uses what we put in our minds through the word. The word is often written in rules and teachings so we can understand the spirit of the Lord.

Psalm 119:1-2 tells us that Happy are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Happy are those who keep his decrees, who seek him with their whole heart, who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways.
It is through the word of God that we learn the rules and teachings of His ways.

Life itself is through the blood of Christ, it always has been from the beginning of time. We take our sins to Christ for forgiveness when we repent, through His blood the Father forgives with His grace and love. It was never the blood of animals that did it as we read over and over in the book of Isaiah. Sacrifice of animals as the heathen did it was hated by the Father. It was always Christ's blood, either as we know it or as a symbol of Christ in BC.

If you consider all the Lord tells us about His principles that were from the beginning as obsolete, as many read Romans 8:13 as saying, then you cannot know Christ for Christ and the Father are one.

NayborBear · Jan 23, 2017

Paul teaches us how we as believers should live together. Jesus' parables taught the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Heaven. We NEED 'em BOTH!

Dagallen · Jan 23, 2017

1 Corinthians 7:6 I speak this by permission and not of commandment. Note: if if was not a commandment, then what Paul is about to say is the inspired words of Paul not the Lord. 7: 6 thru 8 is not commandment from the Lord but a commandment or the inspired words of Paul, now look at 7:10 and unto the married command but not I but the Lord, let not the wife depart from the husband and let not the husband put away his wife. Note: 7:20- 11 was a commandment from the Lord. Note: now with how Paul goes back to himself ? 7:12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, if any brother has a wife that is not believer and she be pleased to dwell with him the believer, let him not put her away. Note: In chapter 7: 1 Thur 40 Paul is speaking the inspired words of Paul except for 7: 10-11, as this means Paul in chapter 7 is giving his own advice that was not a commandment from the Lord, not the words if the Lord but instead it was the commandment if Paul, the inspired words of Paul.

Live by Jesus teachings or Paul's?

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