Leadership or Manipulation?

[sevenseas]

first, let's take a look at what manipulation is. we have probably all heard the expression 'guilt trip', meaning someone makes you feel guilty about yourself whether it be what you say, do or even think.

a manipulator will try to twist things around, turn the tables and is very skillful at dodging straight forward questions

if you are not aware or have not been around a manipulator, you will not know what hit you until you find yourself feeling guilty over something you did not do and apologizing to the manipulator and in so doing, you expose yourself further and make yourself even more vulnerable to their unapologetic scheming to put you right where they want you, which is under their control

we see people attempting this in the Bible forums on a regular basis.

an example is, you ask a question or have a contradictory response to something someone posts. they come back at you with a Bible verse they are using to attempt to become 'god' in your life. the verse will be designed as a rebuff or a rebuke and and they use this verse in a way never intended by God and this is not something anyone has to fear

there are pastors who will give an entire sermon intended to manipulate the congregation; an example is a pastor who wants to build some big extension to the church. I have literally heard a pastor say 'God has put it on my heart that some of you will take out a second mortgage on your house to help out with the project. God bless you. God will greatly reward you. This is not God and people fall for it and want to please God but they are not pleasing God at all; they are allowing themselves to be manipulated by the human being standing in front of them.

thousands of examples of manipulation could be given as it occurs through all spectrums of life. even children manipulate.

but this thread is about the manipulation of Christians by other Christians and how harmful it is to place yourself under false authority. it will wreck havoc in your life.

I don't know. maybe this thread will pass into obscurity like so many do, but I just wanted to bring this into the light and talk about it if anyone wants to

I'm not pointing anyone out. I don't have to do that. Quite a few people on here use this tactic and I don't want to argue with any of you. But if you recognize yourself, perhaps you will stop. You are hurting others and yourself as well.

this is a behavior that is sadly very often tolerated in church and called 'authority' but it is a false authority. we are not to be ruled over by people. every single Christian is supposed to be under authority and that includes the person at the top. no one should be god in your life and the reason Christians should submit to one another and take counsel from each other is to disallow the sad fact of sinful behavior (and the human desire to be god in their own life and the lives of others), to be active as any sort of power play over others

thanks

 

[psalm6819]

It was self appointed fruit inspectors and condemnors that influenced my opinion of God and made me feel so unworthy that I knew I was "stoney ground"

Praise God for His faithfulness and love, He did NOT give up on me and He won't give up on anyone truly seeking Him.

 

[PeterJens]

Interesting. I do agree guilt tripping and manipulation are powerful tools in the wrong hands.

But when we are actually in sin, we should feel guilt. And when we do need to humble ourselves
and put more effort into a project, good leaders do show us the way forward.

We were doing a church building project, and the pastor was getting desperate to get it off the
ground. This one line stuck in my mind.

"Giving to this project may be the most important thing you do in your whole life."

At this point I totally switched off. The many was not walking in faith, just asking people directly
to give to a project he wanted started. And it was a good idea, but not with his leadership.

After he left, and a man of God came, who lead the church into more ministry and outreach with
a loving heart, the project went ahead and 7 years later we are paying off the loan.

Worldly manipulation is easy to spot, and those who use it, in a christian context should be
ashamed.

 

[Willie-T]

Is it right to manipulate? No.
But, does any manipulative behavior on the part of another "make" us do anything?
No, again.
We, alone, choose for ourselves how to react and also how to act.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

I don't see the connection between these forums and leadership.

No-one here is my leader / boss / superior. Sure there are mods, but I don't see it as "leadership" since they rarely step in other than to keep the peace, leadership to me is something more active... i.e. like a teacher, an elder in church etc. I have experienced manipulative bosses (which made me quit my job), here though, if I feel someone is being manipulative, I either report them or put them on ignore, depending on whether I suspect it is merely a matter of different opinions or real attempts at manipulation

 

[PeterJens]

I read a sermon that said this.

"When satan comes to you and says you are not worthy of being in Christ because of your sin,
say Jesus made me righteous."

Personally this is not my experience. But it does put satans words into peoples minds.
Now why would a preacher do this? Because they want to create a feeling of unworthiness,
and condemnation, so then they can come in with the solution, God has forgiven and accepted you
in your state, so He sees you as righteous.

Now this is psychological manipulation, but creating a problem, and then bringing in the solution.

Jesus calls us to preach the solution and await His conviction on peoples hearts so that they
humble themselves before Him and come repentant and desiring forgiveness.

So many claim to be saying the right things, yet they paint slander about another group, and then
show how good their group is, and how false this other groups position is. This is manipulating
conflict and antagonism, before you have even met these other people, and conditioned them with
a response.

This type of manipulation hardens the heart against the opposition, because it is understood the
whole proposition only exists in antagonism against some very strong positions and truths that
must be opposed and brought down to enable it to continue. Unfortunately this is a tell tell sign
of cults and fear, because any sensible thinking person would kick their beliefs into touch.

 

[sevenseas]

Interesting. I do agree guilt tripping and manipulation are powerful tools in the wrong hands.

But when we are actually in sin, we should feel guilt. And when we do need to humble ourselves
and put more effort into a project, good leaders do show us the way forward.

We were doing a church building project, and the pastor was getting desperate to get it off the
ground. This one line stuck in my mind.

"Giving to this project may be the most important thing you do in your whole life."

At this point I totally switched off. The many was not walking in faith, just asking people directly
to give to a project he wanted started. And it was a good idea, but not with his leadership.

After he left, and a man of God came, who lead the church into more ministry and outreach with
a loving heart, the project went ahead and 7 years later we are paying off the loan.

Worldly manipulation is easy to spot, and those who use it, in a christian context should be
ashamed.

hey Peter ~

a good understanding and also really interesting that after the guilt trip was over, things went ahead

this can be an example starting off quite possibly with direction from God, but then allowing the sinful nature and pride etc to take over

just one thing. your use of the word guilt regarding sin. I totally get why you say that. but I think it might be better to use the word conviction? I know in my own life, if I need to apologize I just do not have any peace until I do. interestingly, that is best illustrated by my relationship with my husband. I have found myself beating a path out to where he is working and apologizing. I can be a bit of a force to deal with (haha who me?) so this is good for me to do even if I am right.

I believe Jesus has already taken upon Himself my 'guilt' but that does not mean I never sin again. It means I recognize when I sin and deal with it. I used to let things go and ended up in a stand off with God. I would stop praying cause I caused a rift. Sometimes it is still hard to go to God right away. Not because I think he does not hear me, but because I am tired of my own repeated sinful behavior. I don't mean massive moral sins. I mean the little foxes that eat the grapes.

thanks !

 

[sevenseas]

Is it right to manipulate? No.
But, does any manipulative behavior on the part of another "make" us do anything?
No, again.
We, alone, choose for ourselves how to react and also how to act.

sure

you and I both have strong personalities so we can say that. but I used to be very shy and was easy prey. finally I just rebelled and went big time independent. it was actually survival

sadly, I don't think we can ignore the reality of people who play follow the leader for most of their lives?

in principal I do believe what you say is true. in fact, I would go so far as to say people need to reject their passivity and get up on their own two feet and become the head and not the tail (as God said to Israel)

we cannot all be leaders, but we can all use the minds God gave us to use in the first place

thanks!

 

[sevenseas]

I don't see the connection between these forums and leadership.

No-one here is my leader / boss / superior. Sure there are mods, but I don't see it as "leadership" since they rarely step in other than to keep the peace, leadership to me is something more active... i.e. like a teacher, an elder in church etc. I have experienced manipulative bosses (which made me quit my job), here though, if I feel someone is being manipulative, I either report them or put them on ignore, depending on whether I suspect it is merely a matter of different opinions or real attempts at manipulation

I'm speaking generally. I am not trying to go on a witch hunt in the forums. I understand your concerns.

thanks!

 

[sevenseas]

I read a sermon that said this.

"When satan comes to you and says you are not worthy of being in Christ because of your sin,
say Jesus made me righteous."

Personally this is not my experience. But it does put satans words into peoples minds.
Now why would a preacher do this? Because they want to create a feeling of unworthiness,
and condemnation, so then they can come in with the solution, God has forgiven and accepted you
in your state, so He sees you as righteous.

Now this is psychological manipulation, but creating a problem, and then bringing in the solution.

Jesus calls us to preach the solution and await His conviction on peoples hearts so that they
humble themselves before Him and come repentant and desiring forgiveness.

So many claim to be saying the right things, yet they paint slander about another group, and then
show how good their group is, and how false this other groups position is. This is manipulating
conflict and antagonism, before you have even met these other people, and conditioned them with
a response.

This type of manipulation hardens the heart against the opposition, because it is understood the
whole proposition only exists in antagonism against some very strong positions and truths that
must be opposed and brought down to enable it to continue. Unfortunately this is a tell tell sign
of cults and fear, because any sensible thinking person would kick their beliefs into touch.

well then I guess we need to treat others as we would like to be treated

I agree with the Bible when we are told that there are none righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10, Ecc.20 and many others)

we start with ourselves. be open to correction but correction is not punishment.

I like this scripture from David in the Psalms:

Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts; Psalm 139:23

I have prayed that many times.

The world has this expression: To thine own self be true.

 

[Willie-T]

sure

you and I both have strong personalities so we can say that. but I used to be very shy and was easy prey. finally I just rebelled and went big time independent. it was actually survival

sadly, I don't think we can ignore the reality of people who play follow the leader for most of their lives?

in principal I do believe what you say is true. in fact, I would go so far as to say people need to reject their passivity and get up on their own two feet and become the head and not the tail (as God said to Israel)

we cannot all be leaders, but we can all use the minds God gave us to use in the first place

thanks!

One of the main things Jesus stressed, over and over, was that is each person's individual responsibility to chart their own course. Yes, He said poor leaders are going to be in trouble with Him. But, he never ceased telling each and every one of us that we were not to use the actions of others as an excuse not to take charge of our own lives.

 

[sevenseas]

One of the main things Jesus stressed, over and over, was that is each person's individual responsibility to chart their own course. Yes, He said poor leaders are going to be in trouble with Him. But, he never ceased telling each and every one of us that we were not to use the actions of others as an excuse not to take charge of our own lives.

believe me, you are preaching to the choir

my concern is regarding those who have not grasped that, don't see it coming and need to break from it

I had to break from it and it was an awful struggle and came with a lot of pain

 

[PennEd]

Is it right to manipulate? No.
But, does any manipulative behavior on the part of another "make" us do anything?
No, again.
We, alone, choose for ourselves how to react and also how to act.

This is basically what I was going to say.

I tell my boys, and have to remind myself sometimes, that we cannot control what other people think, say, feel, or do. We can ONLY control owhat we think, say, feel or do, and how we react to others.

So the fix is right at our fingertips (literally here!).
We must show love, compassion, and joy in the knowledge of Him.

I know some will say " Well speaking Biblical truth IS love" Maybe, but please refer to 1 Corinthians 13!

 

[sevenseas]

This is basically what I was going to say.

I tell my boys, and have to remind myself sometimes, that we cannot control what other people think, say, feel, or do. We can ONLY control owhat we think, say, feel or do, and how we react to others.

So the fix is right at our fingertips (literally here!).
We must show love, compassion, and joy in the knowledge of Him.

I know some will say " Well speaking Biblical truth IS love" Maybe, but please refer to 1 Corinthians 13!

Agreed!

and thank you

 

[Willie-T]

I think the lesson for us is not to be manipulative just because others are.

We are told most often, to keep an eye on ourselves. That is not a command to constantly judge, instead, how others act.
Sure, be aware...... but that's it. Don't judge them, just be wary around them.

We don't gain points with Jesus by saying, "Ah-Ha!!!! Caught you! You're not acting right! I'm gonna run and tell everyone about you!" concerning others, and pointing fingers at them.

 

[samuel23]

I do not know of anyone in this forum that has been manipulated into anything that I know of( maybe it happened but I have not seen it), like all forums I have found a lot of manipulation of scripture. It would be pretty hard to manipulate someone here because we just message each other. I have seen a lot of manipulation in churches and TV ministries. This one is probably not that serious, but the Pastor of the church I use to go to at offering time would tell people to disregard the amount of money they had planned to give and ask God what He wanted them to give. I felt like telling him that I intended to give one hundred dollars but God told me to give fifty.

 

[Willie-T]

I do not know of anyone in this forum that has been manipulated into anything that I know of( maybe it happened but I have not seen it), like all forums I have found a lot of manipulation of scripture. It would be pretty hard to manipulate someone here because we just message each other. I have seen a lot of manipulation in churches and TV ministries. This one is probably not that serious, but the Pastor of the church I use to go to at offering time would tell people to disregard the amount of money they had planned to give and ask God what He wanted them to give. I felt like telling him that I intended to give one hundred dollars but God told me to give fifty.

As much as we think we do, we actually don't know if that might not have been exactly what he meant.

 

[sevenseas]

ok we need to pause for station identification

maybe I came across as wanting to point fingers, even though I said that was not what this thread was about

GENERAL CONVERSATION

that's it, that's all

please read the op again and thank you

yes, some people here do try to do that with their words, but this is a forum so whatever

we don't need to be afraid of bringing anything to God, not ashamed and not afraid

personal conflict is one thing God is more than happy to help us out with

 

[samuel23]

Pastor was a nice guy, I am sure he meant it. However God rarely speaks and tells us how much to give, we can find that in the bible. And of course most folks might start to feel as if they were not giving enough and add some to their offering, so I think there was a little manipulation there also.

 

[sevenseas]

Pastor was a nice guy, I am sure he meant it. However God rarely speaks and tells us how much to give, we can find that in the bible. And of course most folks might start to feel as if they were not giving enough and add some to their offering, so I think there was a little manipulation there also.

yeah

I think we all do some manipulation. kind of born with it

we also use the expression guilt tripping or gaslighting for more involved schemes

it's a tricky thing. we need to be aware; we can each only start with ourselves