Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)

[Roughsoul1991]

Point #1 Free will is the option each and every person has in their life to choose to do evil or good, to choose God or to choose the devil. To help or harm.

Point #2 is literally on pretty much every page of the bible, you know those HUNDREDS maybe even thousands of times God tells people to do something, such as believe, repent, have faith, turn, whatever the case may be. Most famous of these is probably Deuteronomy 11:26-27 where it says: "Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;"

I mean, why would God keep asking people to do things such as repent, if its impossible for them to do so without God giving them that repentance, it would be God arguing with Himself (Rev 3:20, 2 peter 3:9, acts 2:38, too many to mention, its everywhere.)

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

The whole existence of evil is the proof that free will exists. Or else our God of love, truth, and good wouldn't be a loving God to have evil to be part of his creation.

Evil only exist because God honors free choice between good and evil.

He takes great glory when people choose to do good. I can see God doing like a victory dance when his creation chooses to do his will.

And since evil still exist today, so does free will.

 

[Locutus]

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

If it's not possible do to the above, "turn from his ways" according to "Total Depravity" then the above statement accorded to God by his prophet then it becomes a meaningless statement.

 

[Issachar92]

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

If it's not possible do to the above, "turn from his ways" according to "Total Depravity" then the above statement accorded to God by his prophet then it becomes a meaningless statement.

You just nailed it right there, this is THE core issue with this doctrine of calvinism.
It doesnt add up, so much of scripture becomes completely meaningless drama, where nothing really means anything. They got no answer to what you just posted there, and what examples of nineveh ive also posted. CALVINISTS, ANSWER THIS: WHY DOES GOD ASK PEOPLE TO DO STUFF HE KNOWS THEY CANT DO IN YOUR STRANGE SYSTEM, ISNT THAT RETARDED?

The more I read about it, the more it seems to be a system of fatalism and no responsibility.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Greetings to you dear reader.

I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.

My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:

1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)

2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?

3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?

4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51

5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)


(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads )

Really i do not agree with the highlight in red either. Its contridicting to the idea of free will.

 

[Issachar92]

Really i do not agree with the highlight in red either. Its contridicting to the idea of free will.

Ah yes, what do you have in mind? I dont hold to any of the 5 points either, but this one is atleast justifiable from the bible, where it says He will finish the good work started in us.

But I understand what you are saying (probably), you are saying that we can choose to opt out of that sanctification process?

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

​

Is the Arminian vs Calvinism debate over yet? Have the two come to an agreement that can be shared with the world and forever leave us with peace?!

After 450 years, are we finally there?!

 

[Locutus]

You just nailed it right there, this is THE core issue with this doctrine of calvinism.
It doesnt add up, so much of scripture becomes completely meaningless drama, where nothing really means anything. They got no answer to what you just posted there, and what examples of nineveh ive also posted. CALVINISTS, ANSWER THIS: WHY DOES GOD ASK PEOPLE TO DO STUFF HE KNOWS THEY CANT DO IN YOUR STRANGE SYSTEM, ISNT THAT RETARDED?

The more I read about it, the more it seems to be a system of fatalism and no responsibility.

You're as stubborn as a mule, or is it a donkey.....

The problem to me is emphasizing some scriptures over others, we can see this with the SDA, JW's etc - they all have built up comprehensive systems of "theology" into mountains of tomes which appeal to their membership and "prove" their stance.

Now wonder the world looks at "Christendom" sideways.

 

[Issachar92]

You're as stubborn as a mule, or is it a donkey.....

The problem to me is emphasizing some scriptures over others, we can see this with the SDA, JW's etc - they all have built up comprehensive systems of "theology" into mountains of tomes which appeal to their membership and "prove" their stance.

Now wonder the world looks at "Christendom" sideways.

AMEN!

Stubborn, or should I say: "stedfast, unmoveable"

 

[Johnny_B]

You just nailed it right there, this is THE core issue with this doctrine of calvinism.
It doesnt add up, so much of scripture becomes completely meaningless drama, where nothing really means anything. They got no answer to what you just posted there, and what examples of nineveh ive also posted. CALVINISTS, ANSWER THIS: WHY DOES GOD ASK PEOPLE TO DO STUFF HE KNOWS THEY CANT DO IN YOUR STRANGE SYSTEM, ISNT THAT RETARDED?

The more I read about it, the more it seems to be a system of fatalism and no responsibility.

The Holy Spirit knew you were going to ask this question and here's your answer Romans 9:17-24 "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

The "What if God" is introducing a hypothetical question, if God wanted to, it's not saying God does. There is no double electing. Make known the riches of His glory and prepared before hand, is what Paul writes in Ephesians 1:4-5, 2:7, 10 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,...............9 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus....10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

So in that hypothetical question are some truths, but it's still overall a hypothetical question.

 

[Harmless]

Greetings to you dear reader.

I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.

My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:

1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)

2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?

3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?

4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51

5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)


(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads )

First of all, I am not a Calvinist, but do agree with some of Calvin's doctrines I have heard of. But now let's look at your point one. From the beginning of time. how did people come to God? He chose them. Now you say that man must not be that depraved since God commands us to repent etc. But if you let the Bible define itself, you will see that there are none who are righteous, no not one. Not one understands, not one seeks after God. You can read this in Romans 3:10-11. But read the whole chapter and you will see how depraved all mankind really is. Let's look at Adam and Eve. They had the perfect existence with all of their needs met. They only had one rule to obey. Only one choice to make. They chose the wrong one. So why should we think mankind now in this evil and perverse world would make the right choice? In John 6:29. Jesus tells us that "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." So there Jesus is telling us it is God's work that we believe. Now let's look at John 6:44. There Jesus tells us that no man can come to him unless the Father draws him. In John 1:12-13 we read: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Now that sounds like we choose to believe on His name doesn't it? But lets look at the next verse. 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Now lets look at what exactly God is telling us there. We must receive Him and believe on Him whom God sent. But not of blood (the Jews believed their bloodline saved them automatically), nor of the will of the flesh as the Bible tells us the flesh is weak, nor of the will of man referring to free will. I can give you many more examples and verses. But this should clarify things simply. One more thing. Unless you are one of God's elect and He draws you, you will never be able to see these truths and will continue to depend on works you do for salvation. I will address other points of your post if you would like me too. I know from your post that you don't like long drawn out posts, but that is as short as I dare abbreviate it.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Ah yes, what do you have in mind? I dont hold to any of the 5 points either, but this one is atleast justifiable from the bible, where it says He will finish the good work started in us.

But I understand what you are saying (probably), you are saying that we can choose to opt out of that sanctification process?

Very brief but yes you got the idea

 

[Locutus]

. I know from your post that you don't like long drawn out posts, but that is as short as I dare abbreviate it.

You could try hitting the enter, "carriage return" key every now and again so your posts don't look like you exhaled them in one breath.



Edited to add, this dog also bites Calvinists...

He's a good dog...

 

[trofimus]

Point #1 Free will is the option each and every person has in their life to choose to do evil or good, to choose God or to choose the devil. To help or harm.

So free will is just to get an option, no matter if you can choose it or not, according to you?
I thought that free will would have something to do with the will, not with the surroundings of the subject.

If you had two doors in front of you but you were more attracted to the left ones, would you have free will to choose them equally or not?

 

[Johnny_B]

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

If it's not possible do to the above, "turn from his ways" according to "Total Depravity" then the above statement accorded to God by his prophet then it becomes a meaningless statement.

How is that? God is simply stating that He would rather man should turn, it's His holiness, righteousness and justice in His nature that man should turn. His not the hippie god in the sky that loves everyone and wouldn't judge anyone. That somehow because He is Holy and man is evil and sinful, that He can't call men to repentance because man can't do it. That's not God's fault, it's our fault, because we love our sin and hate God. God killed His Son that man could be saved and because our natural mind can't understand how God is just in asking man that can't repent, He commands them to repent.

He loved the world by giving His Son, He did not send His Son to condemn the world, but that it might be saved, but men loved their evil rather then Jesus, by which they were condemned already, those that do come to Him it shows that God is the one that did in them, John 3:16-21. Us as men want to judge God, that's a dangerous place to be, do you think any of us fully understand the Scriptures? No! But we have to submit to what the Scriptures say. If not, consider that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the fool says in his heart there is no God. Fool does not mean idiot, it's the uninformed, they say because I don't understand, that this is not God, because the god of my understanding can't do that. My natural mind says, that's not right, so it can not be from the God of creation.

 

[valiant]

So free will is just to get an option, no matter if you can choose it or not, according to you?
I thought that free will would have something to do with the will, not with the surroundings of the subject.

If you had two doors in front of you but you were more attracted to the left ones, would you have free will to choose them equally or not?

no, of course not. You will 'choose' the one you are attracted to.

 

[p_rehbein]

Why on earth would anyone want to be misguided, misinformed and mistaken concerning the Truth of Scripture?

 

[trofimus]

no, of course not. You will 'choose' the one you are attracted to.

And therefore, there is no free will in a philosophical/theological meaning. Our attraction to any two options is never absolutely equal.


Our will is free in a sense that we choose what we want, nobody forces us to choose this or that.

Our will is not free in a sense that we can want what we do not want. We are not free regarding our motivations.

 

[valiant]

And therefore, there is no free will in a philosophical/theological meaning. Our attraction to any two options is never absolutely equal.


Our will is free in a sense that we choose what we want, nobody forces us to choose this or that.

Our will is not free in a sense that we can want what we do not want. We are not free regarding our motivations.

agreed. which is why no man will choose God of himself. That is why God chooses those to whom He then gives true faith,

 

[Grandpa]

You just nailed it right there, this is THE core issue with this doctrine of calvinism.
It doesnt add up, so much of scripture becomes completely meaningless drama, where nothing really means anything. They got no answer to what you just posted there, and what examples of nineveh ive also posted. CALVINISTS, ANSWER THIS: WHY DOES GOD ASK PEOPLE TO DO STUFF HE KNOWS THEY CANT DO IN YOUR STRANGE SYSTEM, ISNT THAT RETARDED?

The more I read about it, the more it seems to be a system of fatalism and no responsibility.

Didn't I already answer that?

Or did you forget?

 

[Grandpa]

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

If it's not possible do to the above, "turn from his ways" according to "Total Depravity" then the above statement accorded to God by his prophet then it becomes a meaningless statement.

If it was possible according to "choice" then what was the point of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Why didn't people just choose Life?

It sure would have saved God a lot of trouble.