Jesus said WHAT?

[sevenseas]

well, if anyone is paying attention, there is a false gospel being preached in some of the forums in the BDF and it concerns the words of Jesus.

apparently, they are all a part of the old covenant and if we follow them, we are putting ourselves back under the law

now I know some of you are going 'Whaaaaaaaa???' and no doubt some will defend this 'new' teaching

however, if Jesus words are all a part of the law, then why does Peter (Acts 4) say that JESUS is the CHIEF cornerstone?

Peter does not seem to think anything less than Jesus is the BOSS and the ONE Who is holding it all together (you will better understand that if you know what a cornerstone is)

I'll post that later cause it ties in so beautifully with what Peter is saying. in fact, it's perfect

I have honestly never before heard anyone, anywhere, say the words of Jesus are part of the old covenant. So here's the thread in which to discuss it

 

[Grace777x70]

Some of Jesus' words are definitely part of the Old Covenant.

Do we go and present ourselves to the priest like Jesus said to one guy to do - because it was the Law.

Jesus also told a guy who asked Him "What must "I do" to inherit eternal life".

Jesus gave him the law to reveal that he didn't keep the commandments after all. The man had money as his "god" and broke the first commandment.

Do we tell people now in the New Covenant that to be saved they need to keep the 10 commandments? of course not - (well maybe some might.)

So, what do we do in the New Covenant?

Paul shows us exactly.

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

So, the words of Jesus and scripture in general all need to be filtered through the finished work of Christ.

I have never heard anyone say that "All of Jesus's words are Old Covenant". I have heard people deceitfully accuse others of saying that and completely mis-represent what is really being said.

 

[Locutus]

No idea where this is going and what prompted it.

 

[Grace777x70]

I love talking about the genius of the Lord Jesus Christ in His ministry on the earth when He was physically here.

To those that were self-righteous - Jesus gave the law in order to expose their need of a Savior. To those that knew they needed a Savior - He spoke words of grace to them.

I have posted this article a few times and this is what I believe concerning the "words of Jesus" - if others believe differently - then you are free to do so. I won't slander you for thinking differently.

Quote:

The Greatest Law Preacher

"Don’t stray too far from the red letters,” is a piece of advice often given to new preachers. It means, stay close to the teachings of Jesus and you can’t go wrong. It sounds good, but it’s actually bad advice.

Everything Jesus said was good and wonderful, but not everything He said was meant for you.

Read the red letters of your Bible and you will find both stories of unprecedented grace and merciless declarations of law. Mix these messages and you will end up confused and double-minded.

The solution is not to balance law and grace – you can’t – but to filter everything you read through the finished work of the cross.

To make sense of what Jesus said, you need to understand what Jesus did and why.

Jesus lived under law

Jesus lived at the crossroads of two covenants. As humanity’s representative He came to fulfill the old law-keeping covenant in order that we might relate to God through a new and better covenant forged in His blood. Since the new covenant could not begin before He died, Jesus lived all of His pre-cross life under the old covenant of the law:

But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. (Gal 4:4-5)

Jesus was born under law, circumcised by law, and presented in the temple according to the law. Every Jewish person that Jesus met was also born under law. We need to keep this in mind when we read the red letters of Jesus.

What law did Jesus preach?

To those under the law, Jesus preached the pure and unadulterated Law of Moses. When religious people came to trap him with theological puzzles, Jesus would respond with, “What did Moses command you?” (Mk 10:3).

If someone asked, “What is the greatest commandment in the law,” Jesus would provide an answerfrom the law (Mt 22:36). In His law-keeping ministry, Jesus honored the Law of Moses:

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. (Mt 23:2-3)

Since the law-teachers often made Jesus angry, we might conclude that Jesus was opposed to the law. He was not. Jesus had no problem with what the Pharisees were preaching. “Do everything they tell you.” What really burnt His toast was their hypocrisy – they weren’t practicing what they preached:

Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. (Joh 7:19)

Why did Jesus preach the law?

Like every grace preacher, Jesus esteemed the law and the purpose for which it was given.

The law was given to silence every mouth and hold the whole world accountable (Rms 3:19). The purpose of the law is to make us conscious of sin and reveal our need for a Savior.

Since Sinai, the Jews had had fourteen centuries to learn what the law would teach them – that the flesh is incapable of dealing with sin. However, the law-teachers and Pharisees had ring-fenced the Law of Moses with their traditions and interpretations.

By honoring their traditions ahead of the law, they diluted the law and removed the key to knowledge. As a result, the menace of sin was not fully recognized and the self-righteous weren’t silenced.

If the law had been allowed to do its proper work, the Jews would have been primed and ready for a Savior. Every one of them would have had an experience like the one Paul describes in Romans 7. “Nothing good lives in me. Oh wretched man that I am!”

Live under the condemning ministry of the law and you will inevitably come to this question: “Who will deliver me from this body of death?” If the law-teachers and prophets had done their job, then the entire nation of Israel would have gathered outside that stable in Bethlehem in eager expectation.

“He’s here! The Savior has come!” they would have said. “The One who will deliver us from the curse of the law and reconcile us to God has been born. Glory to God in the highest!”

Sadly, it didn’t happen. Since the law-teachers had been negligent, Jesus had to do their job before He could do His own. Before He could save the world from sin, He had to preach the law that made sin utterly sinful.

Before He give Himself as the answer, He had to make sure we were asking the right question. Who will deliver us?

So Jesus became the greatest law preacher of all time. As the prophet Isaiah had foretold, He made the law magnificent. He lifted up what others had knocked down and raised the standard to glorious levels of perfection.

Never again would mankind be without excuse. You want to know what God expects? Just read the Sermon on the Mount. In it Jesus says that God demands perfection and nothing less.

How did Jesus preach the law?

Preaching the red letters of Jesus is a bit like drinking whatever you find in the laundry. If you’re not paying attention – if you fail to distinguish His life-giving words of grace from His death-dealing words of law – then you could really do some damage. Don’t believe me? Then consider these red letters:

If you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Mat 6:14-15)

This is one of the most-quoted passages in the Bible and it is vintage law. It is a killer scripture. It is not good news. This verse should make us shudder for it says that our forgiveness hinges on our ability to forgive others and we are poor forgivers indeed. Men sin against us repeatedly.

Have we honestly forgiven them all? What if we miss one? And what do we say to those who have been raped and abused? What do you say to a young child who has been molested? “Sweetie, you need to forgive that evil man otherwise God won’t forgive you.” That’s not grace.

That’s the condemning ministry of the law in full bloom. How do you forgive the unforgiveable? You can’t! Then you’re in trouble. The law condemns you as an unforgiver. Now you’re beginning to recognize your need for grace and this is a good thing.

Any time you read a conditional statement from Jesus, you should interpret it as law. “Do not judge and you will not be judged” (Lk 6:37). That’s good advice but it’s also law. To avoid something (judgment) you have to do something (don’t judge).

It’s a blessing you have to pay for. And anytime Jesus makes a threat, you should interpret that as law as well. “Anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment” (Mt 5:22). That’s bad news for anyone with a brother!

The law is not for you

Jesus came to reveal grace but those who are confident of their own righteousness are incapable of receiving it. They don’t see their need. What they need is the law and Jesus gave it to them in spades. But Jesus’ larger purpose was to give us His life and His righteousness.

So He also told stories about God justifying sinners and shepherds finding lost sheep. Then He went to the cross fulfilling the law on our behalf that He might be the end of the law for all who believe (Rom 10:4).

Jesus’ came to set the captives free and give sight to the blind. The law sets nobody free. But the law does reveal your need for a Great Deliverer.

Unquote:

Here is the website for this article if interested. It has a comment section at the bottom where people can ask questions. I often learn a lot in reading the questions as we can have the same ones sometimes.

https://escapetoreality.org/2012/01/...-law-preacher/

 

[Desertsrose]

I never heard this until I came here either. Shocking! It's probably time to do a thread on what the Gospel of the Kingdom is.


And right you are, the church is built upon the apostles and prophets and Jesus is the chief cornerstone. Jesus brought us out from under the condemnation of the law so that by grace we will walk in the truths of the law, the righteous requirements of the law.


Jesus taught us to love God and love one another ....... what does that mean. God left us His precious word so that we can know what it means to love God and love one another. That's how we're taught ....... through His word.


The 10 commandments are all about loving God and one another and they are repeated in the New Testament. Jesus condensed the 10 commandments into 2. But even in condensing anything the whole is still there. And we go to the whole to see what the 2 mean. All of the apostle's teaching explain what love is and what it looks like.


If we were to go through the commands of the New Covenant, I'm sure we'll find more than 613. The apostles were giving us commands all throughout their teachings.


Wake up brothers and sisters. Don't be deceived by the enemy who prowls around looking to those he can devour. Let's not be one who will be chewed up and spit out by the enemy of our souls. Wherever we go we'll find satan's demons that appear as angels of light. They're in our midst here on CC as well.


Please guys, let's read the words for ourself. Let's not be spoon fed and eat something because it tastes good. Let's get into God's word and study it rightly dividing the truths found in scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.


I guess Paul must have been a blasphemer to those who claim this.
A law written for all to see and for children to obey this law within the New Covenant.
Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.

 

[loveme1]

John 6

60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.








Read all for great food for your spirit.

 

[PennEd]

well, if anyone is paying attention, there is a false gospel being preached in some of the forums in the BDF and it concerns the words of Jesus.

apparently, they are all a part of the old covenant and if we follow them, we are putting ourselves back under the law

now I know some of you are going 'Whaaaaaaaa???' and no doubt some will defend this 'new' teaching

however, if Jesus words are all a part of the law, then why does Peter (Acts 4) say that JESUS is the CHIEF cornerstone?

Peter does not seem to think anything less than Jesus is the BOSS and the ONE Who is holding it all together (you will better understand that if you know what a cornerstone is)

I'll post that later cause it ties in so beautifully with what Peter is saying. in fact, it's perfect

I have honestly never before heard anyone, anywhere, say the words of Jesus are part of the old covenant. So here's the thread in which to discuss it

I'm sorry sister, but I'm one of those going whaaaa!???

Before we get too far into this it might be worth instructing exactly WHAT the old covenant is and what the new is. I mean it's a little silly to say Jesus never spoke about the Abrahamic or Mosaic covenant.

 

[Stephen63]

Some of Jesus' words are definitely part of the Old Covenant.

Do we go and present ourselves to the priest like Jesus said to one guy to do - because it was the Law.

Jesus also told a guy who asked Him "What must "I do" to inherit eternal life".

Jesus gave him the law to reveal that he didn't keep the commandments after all. The man had money as his "god" and broke the first commandment.

Do we tell people now in the New Covenant that to be saved they need to keep the 10 commandments? of course not - (well maybe some might.)

So, what do we do in the New Covenant?

Paul shows us exactly.

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

So, the words of Jesus and scripture in general all need to be filtered through the finished work of Christ.

I have never heard anyone say that "All of Jesus's words are Old Covenant". I have heard people deceitfully accuse others of saying that and completely mis-represent what is really being said.

You mean like your hero does?

He says "some", then goes on to say what Jesus said before the cross..... which is like 90+%.

Evil aaannd sneaky.

 

[Stephen63]

Here is the website for this article if interested. It has a comment section at the bottom where people can ask questions. I often learn a lot in reading the questions as we can have the same ones sometimes.

https://escapetoreality.org/2012/01/...-law-preacher/

Paul Ellis is a self-proclaimed hypergrace preacher.

I refuse to believe anything a known heretic says.

 

[PennEd]

Of course the covenant of the Law was in effect until Christ's crucifixion.

That's the whole reason he had to die. To fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law.

I'm a little surprised people would argue this point.

 

[Grace777x70]

Of course the covenant of the Law was in effect until Christ's crucifixion.

That's the whole reason he had to die. To fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law.

I'm a little surprised people would argue this point.

Yes... I agree. Jesus was born under the law so that He could redeem those that were under the Law.

Galatians 4:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

[SUP]5[/SUP] so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Jesus fulfilled the Law just like He said He came to do.

And in order for the New Covenant to take place - there needs to be His death. The New Covenant does not start at Jesus' birth but at His death and resurrection.

Hebrews 9:15-17 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[sevenseas]

I'm sorry sister, but I'm one of those going whaaaa!???

Before we get too far into this it might be worth instructing exactly WHAT the old covenant is and what the new is. I mean it's a little silly to say Jesus never spoke about the Abrahamic or Mosaic covenant.

uh huh

specifically concerning the words of Jesus in this thread and not talking covenants

are the words of Christ binding or not?

for example, on forgiveness. should we forgive if we want to be forgiven?

note: understanding that when we come to Christ, we are forgiven of ALL sins. how do we proceed. quite honestly, why do we even think we need to ask forgiveness ANYWHERE TO ANYONE if we think we do not need to forgive those who sin against us?

this ties in with the teaching that what is commonly referred to as 'the Lord's prayer' is no longer valid

let's keep in mind that Jesus responded to His disciples and that prayer is intended as a model, not some rote bunch of words with Jesus stamp of OK. we are taught throughout the Bible how to pray and have many models for the encouragement in both testaments

so WHY are some teaching that Jesus words are all a part of the old covenant

 

[sevenseas]

Yes... I agree. Jesus was born under the law so that he could redeem those that were under the Law.

Galatians 4:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

[SUP]5[/SUP] so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Jesus fulfilled the Law just like He said He came to do.

And in order for the New Covenant to take place - there needs to be His death. The New Covenant does not start at Jesus' birth but at His death and resurrection.

Hebrews 9:15-17 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

do you think you could go make your own thread? I have NO problem with you responding, but you are hovering over this thread and taking it over. doing what you dislike when you see others do it

how about letting people respond without you having something to say about every word? that, would be mature of you

I created the thread but I'm not guarding it or trying to put words in people's mouths. you would be real nice to respect that

 

[sevenseas]

I really don't want to ask the question 'was Jesus born UNDER the law' because one could argue that He MADE the law and illustrated it with mercy, understanding and fullfillment

stating he was 'under the law' indicates some sort of obligation

I think that statement illustrates a poor understanding of quote unquote 'the law' (said in a big booming voice)

we AREN'T discussing law here G7..kindly make your own thread if that is your desire. you may be viewing Jesus through the law but you are BADLY mistaken if you are

thank you very much

 

[sevenseas]

sigh

one more thing

please refrain from posting videos and songs in this thread. if you do anyway, don't be surprised when people run you over too

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't see why I am not allowed to give my opinion? I will say what I believe concerning the OP and then let the OP do whatever she wants.

This is what I believe concerning forgiveness in the New Covenant. If others have a different view - then you are entitled to it. I will not malign nor slander you because of it.......

We have word-for-word accounts of the true gospel of the grace of Christ being preached being preached in the New Covenant by Peter and then by Paul.


Here's Peter....shouldn't he have said "You need to forgive anyone first before you can receive God's forgiveness by the blood of Jesus"?

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."


And the same thing for Paul - he didn't say 'You need to forgive first before we you can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus" ??


Acts 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Or is it possible Jesus was talking about the law when He gave those words out for His disciples at the time they were still under law then?

The New Covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus died and rose again to obtain our eternal forgiveness.

Here Paul says that forgiveness is all based on "according to the riches of His grace "..not if we forgive first.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

This above is what I believe that the New Covenant is saying to us concerning forgiveness.

It is extremely important to read all scriptures in their context - even the words of Jesus. I understand this conflicts with some of our religious beliefs passed on by man-made traditions which nullify the grace of God.

The Cross of Christ changed from living according to law and we are now in the grace of Christ for forgiveness. It is not based on us.

We forgive because we are forgiven - it's in our nature now.

Walk by the spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

If people believe something else- that is their choice....

Those dealing deceitfully say that some are saying "Everything in the words of Jesus are irrelevent and before the cross". ...or "all the words of Jesus are Old Covenant".

The truth is they really say "Some of the words of Jesus were spoken in the Old Covenant and were before the New Covenant". The New Covenant starts with the death of Jesus on the cross. - not in His birth.

If God will NOT forgive us after the New Covenant has taken place - then why is there not even one mention of this in any epistles written to the church "after" the cross and resurrection of the Lord?

Because "if we are not forgiven of sins" then we will not enter into heaven.

No, the truth IMO is that we as new creations in Christ when fed the proper nutrients of His love and grace for us - we will forgive from the heart others.

We as Christians forgive from our heart because we are already forgiven in Christ.

Knowing that we are completely forgiven based on Christ's blood - this releases forgiveness in us. This is the same principle as knowing the love of God for us releases His love in us to manifest to others.

We love because He first loved us. We forgive because we are forgiven. It's the kingdom's way of being manifested in and through us.

Preach and teach Christians the grace and love of our Father and Lord for us and that we too have died with Christ and been raised to newness of life in Him and we will see the fruit of His life manifesting in all of us.

Thank you Lord Jesus!

Ok.. I will leave the thread and let others "do their thing".

God bless you all. We have a great salvation in our Lord's finished work on the cross and a good, good Father.

 

[sevenseas]

Of course the covenant of the Law was in effect until Christ's crucifixion.

That's the whole reason he had to die. To fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law.

I'm a little surprised people would argue this point.

again, and I'm sorry PennEd, this thread is not about the law

G7 is trying to turn it into that. it is not about that.

 

[Nehemiah6]

well, if anyone is paying attention, there is a false gospel being preached in some of the forums in the BDF and it concerns the words of Jesus. apparently, they are all a part of the old covenant and if we follow them, we are putting ourselves back under the law

That is very definitely a false gospel. Here is the truth (John 1:17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

In this one verse we see that there is a contrast between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ. The Law of Christ reveals that:

1. Salvation (justification) has always been by grace through faith, and continues to be so.

2. The Ten Commandments are distilled into the two greatest commandments in which LOVE is the essential commandment.

3. It is impossible for anyone to be saved by Law-Keeping, since the Law simply shows us our sinfulness.

4. Christ fulfilled the Law by observing the Law perfectly and then paying the penalty for all for breaking the Law.

5. The sacrifice of Christ on the Cross including His shed blood established the New Covenant and set aside the Old.

6. In view of this all the words of Christ pertain to the New Covenant.

 

[stonesoffire]

uh huh

specifically concerning the words of Jesus in this thread and not talking covenants

are the words of Christ binding or not?

for example, on forgiveness. should we forgive if we want to be forgiven?

note: understanding that when we come to Christ, we are forgiven of ALL sins. how do we proceed. quite honestly, why do we even think we need to ask forgiveness ANYWHERE TO ANYONE if we think we do not need to forgive those who sin against us?

this ties in with the teaching that what is commonly referred to as 'the Lord's prayer' is no longer valid

let's keep in mind that Jesus responded to His disciples and that prayer is intended as a model, not some rote bunch of words with Jesus stamp of OK. we are taught throughout the Bible how to pray and have many models for the encouragement in both testaments

so WHY are some teaching that Jesus words are all a part of the old covenant

He was fulfilling the Old Covenant. The covenant of Abraham. Look at the word beryith and you will see it. Hope I spelled it right.

Also, if we don't forgive...there's a message that Jesus said about tormentors. Right now I can't find it but it seems to me that He is saying that unforgiveness leaves us wide open to mental torment. Not that we aren't saved if one should die, but unprotected.

Wish I knew where exactly that is.

As far as the Lords prayer...never heard that taught it wasn't in effect. I hear about bringing kingdom to earth, which is by our life and how we live it.

 

[sevenseas]

to ignore what Peter said in Acts, is to preach a false gospel

Peter declares Jesus the chief cornerstone

now understand their are many false prophets and some people here follow them

it is grave and serious to state we no longer need to forgive others because the words of Christ pertain to the old and now we have grace to cover everything and we are good to go

you know, I have maintained there is no hyper grace because I believe in biblical grace

but I will admit now, my eyes have been opened and what is being preached in many threads is hyper grace

yeah

it actually does exist.