2 Corinthians 12 (Amplified Bible)
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Are you kidding me...
You read 2 Conthians 12 and all you come up with is demons and Paul's thorn in the flesh.
I think I drank to much coke or hot choclate.
Please tell me this is not all that this thread is going to contain...
pretty please
You read 2 Conthians 12 and all you come up with is demons and Paul's thorn in the flesh.
I think I drank to much coke or hot choclate.
Please tell me this is not all that this thread is going to contain...
pretty please
Pretty sad really. Paul had a demon from Satan to keep him humble. Yeah, right.
In this passage, Paul tells of a man, whether in the body or out of the body, he does not know, who was caught up to the third heaven. And while there, this man heard words that are inexpressible, which are not even permitted to speak. And because of the greatness of these revelations, in order to keep this man from becoming exalted in his own mind, God gave him a thorn in his flesh, a messenger from Satan to buffet him. And about this he asked three times that it might depart from him.
You have asserted that everyone who is speaking the gospel must, according to this passage, have a demon, or several demons, buffeting them, withstanding them, working against them, with God's permission. This is in no way what this passage is saying. This is a gross misuse of scripture.
A weakness, a personal buffeting, to keep one humble, in no way detracts from the work of the Holy Spirit in this man's ministry. It only is there to keep him from exalting himself. And maybe to teach him more about God's grace.
It does not say in scripture that this messenger was a demon, nor that Paul was possessed of demons. Nor even that he had demons in him.
In any case, all of this was boasting by Paul, because he was compelled to boast to the Corinthians because of their foolishness. He was showing them that he was in no way inferior to the other apostles of Jesus Christ.
When Jesus taught, there were no demons around; He had already made them all leave. The same is true for every person who teaches in the power of the Holy Spirit.
You have asserted that everyone who is speaking the gospel must, according to this passage, have a demon, or several demons, buffeting them, withstanding them, working against them, with God's permission. This is in no way what this passage is saying. This is a gross misuse of scripture.
A weakness, a personal buffeting, to keep one humble, in no way detracts from the work of the Holy Spirit in this man's ministry. It only is there to keep him from exalting himself. And maybe to teach him more about God's grace.
It does not say in scripture that this messenger was a demon, nor that Paul was possessed of demons. Nor even that he had demons in him.
In any case, all of this was boasting by Paul, because he was compelled to boast to the Corinthians because of their foolishness. He was showing them that he was in no way inferior to the other apostles of Jesus Christ.
When Jesus taught, there were no demons around; He had already made them all leave. The same is true for every person who teaches in the power of the Holy Spirit.
R
Num 33:55 "But if you don't drive out the inhabitants of the land before you, those you allow to remain will become thorns in your eyes and in your sides; they will harass you in the land where you will live."
I've always read that 2 Corinthians passage to mean someone or something that stops you from being too full of yourself. Like a hater or something that reminds you of your life pre-salvation... maybe even a pet sin you can't shake, like an addiction.
Paul was thankful for this thorn and I can understand that. Humility isn't easy when you know you're right about God and 99% of people are wrong lol
Back in the day, God wanted Israel to get rid of everyone/everything that didn't jive with His message. One bad apple can ruin the whole bunch. Seems like what Paul is saying is that for Christians, we don't need to exterminate everything that isn't Christian- we need to let it remind us how much we need God. That's the victory.
I've always read that 2 Corinthians passage to mean someone or something that stops you from being too full of yourself. Like a hater or something that reminds you of your life pre-salvation... maybe even a pet sin you can't shake, like an addiction.
Paul was thankful for this thorn and I can understand that. Humility isn't easy when you know you're right about God and 99% of people are wrong lol
Back in the day, God wanted Israel to get rid of everyone/everything that didn't jive with His message. One bad apple can ruin the whole bunch. Seems like what Paul is saying is that for Christians, we don't need to exterminate everything that isn't Christian- we need to let it remind us how much we need God. That's the victory.
A
quote=rainacorn;469929]Num 33:55 "But if you don't drive out the inhabitants of the land before you, those you allow to remain will become thorns in your eyes and in your sides; they will harass you in the land where you will live."
I've always read that 2 Corinthians passage to mean someone or something that stops you from being too full of yourself. Like a hater or something that reminds you of your life pre-salvation... maybe even a pet sin you can't shake, like an addiction.
Paul was thankful for this thorn and I can understand that. Humility isn't easy when you know you're right about God and 99% of people are wrong lol
Back in the day, God wanted Israel to get rid of everyone/everything that didn't jive with His message. One bad apple can ruin the whole bunch. Seems like what Paul is saying is that for Christians, we don't need to exterminate everything that isn't Christian- we need to let it remind us how much we need God. That's the victory.[/quote]
that was my thought at the start to take it in the old testement sense......therefore i always took it as the care of the churches. The constant people problem. The tares, the false prophets, the carnal babies..etc. And yes that takes grace!
I've always read that 2 Corinthians passage to mean someone or something that stops you from being too full of yourself. Like a hater or something that reminds you of your life pre-salvation... maybe even a pet sin you can't shake, like an addiction.
Paul was thankful for this thorn and I can understand that. Humility isn't easy when you know you're right about God and 99% of people are wrong lol
Back in the day, God wanted Israel to get rid of everyone/everything that didn't jive with His message. One bad apple can ruin the whole bunch. Seems like what Paul is saying is that for Christians, we don't need to exterminate everything that isn't Christian- we need to let it remind us how much we need God. That's the victory.[/quote]
that was my thought at the start to take it in the old testement sense......therefore i always took it as the care of the churches. The constant people problem. The tares, the false prophets, the carnal babies..etc. And yes that takes grace!
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That part I get. She believe herself to be a warrior for God. Some are caretakers, some praise, and some are warriors,etc. The focus of a warrior must always be on the Commanding officer (God) and the enemy. If not, an attack might come and you won't be ready. The other one is obvious.
But I still don't get what she is trying to say with the thread.
But I still don't get what she is trying to say with the thread.
She is saying that every christian who is obedient to God and who is preaching the gospel has a demon assigned to them to try to keep them from doing God's will.
The problem with this is that Satan has already been made an open show of, he has been defeated at the cross, and in the resurrection, all power has been given to Jesus over all things.
The only way that Satan can hinder us from walking in the Spirit and doing God's will is to get those who do not know God to kill us or imprison us. And even then, it does not work.
The devil is a trickster, a liar, and he has been made to be an open shame. When we finally do see him as he is, we will wonder at this creature who has caused all of this trouble
If we look at the ministry of Jesus, He made sure that every emissary of the devil was removed from the scene before He ministered. He did this every time. The demons fled from Him. They should flee from us too.
In Christ
The problem with this is that Satan has already been made an open show of, he has been defeated at the cross, and in the resurrection, all power has been given to Jesus over all things.
The only way that Satan can hinder us from walking in the Spirit and doing God's will is to get those who do not know God to kill us or imprison us. And even then, it does not work.
The devil is a trickster, a liar, and he has been made to be an open shame. When we finally do see him as he is, we will wonder at this creature who has caused all of this trouble
If we look at the ministry of Jesus, He made sure that every emissary of the devil was removed from the scene before He ministered. He did this every time. The demons fled from Him. They should flee from us too.
In Christ
SO to the merit of what you are saying, once you are in Christ, you never have an evil thought. No temptation. The devil is defeated and since you can clearly distinguish between good and evil you simply put the devil on ignore.Since you are in the Light, the devil can't reach you no longer. You can clearly hear God's voice as it is written my sheep know My voice. So you listen and obey His commands.
You spread the message and teach others this and one day you will receive your reward.
You spread the message and teach others this and one day you will receive your reward.
Are you kidding me...
You read 2 Conthians 12 and all you come up with is demons and Paul's thorn in the flesh.
I think I drank to much coke or hot choclate.
Please tell me this is not all that this thread is going to contain...
pretty please
You read 2 Conthians 12 and all you come up with is demons and Paul's thorn in the flesh.
I think I drank to much coke or hot choclate.
Please tell me this is not all that this thread is going to contain...
pretty please
2 Corinthians 12 (Amplified Bible) 7And to keep me from being puffed up and too much elated by the exceeding greatness (preeminence) of these revelations, there was given me a thorn ([a]a splinter) in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to rack and buffet and harass me, to keep me from being excessively exalted. [Job. 2:6.]
A
don't know but I think Paul might be a special case.
It does not say that YOU should expect to have a demon assigned to you unless you also are given lots of visions/revelations that might make you think you are better then other people and get a inflated and puffed up prideful head. I've never heard of another case where people are surrounded by demons or familiar spirits because God ordained it. do you know of another?
He didn't get married either like the other Apostles, he refrained from eating meat as well and other things.
1 Corinthians 9:4-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working?
Either way I think we should focus on the key parts of the letter:
2 Corinthians 13
4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Become complete. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.
12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
13 All the saints greet you.
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
It does not say that YOU should expect to have a demon assigned to you unless you also are given lots of visions/revelations that might make you think you are better then other people and get a inflated and puffed up prideful head. I've never heard of another case where people are surrounded by demons or familiar spirits because God ordained it. do you know of another?
He didn't get married either like the other Apostles, he refrained from eating meat as well and other things.
1 Corinthians 9:4-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working?
Either way I think we should focus on the key parts of the letter:
2 Corinthians 13
4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Become complete. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.
12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
13 All the saints greet you.
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
2 Corinthians 12:7
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
is this Old Testament language?
~
Numbers 33:55
"'But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live.
Ezekiel 28:24
"'No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.
Joshua 23:13
then you may be sure that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you.
1 Thessalonians 2:14
13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers. 14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God’s wrath has come upon them at last!
2 Corinthians 11
12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
2 Corinthians 12:7
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
2 Corinthians 12:10-12
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
~
Thorn in the flesh
The source of this expression is Paul of Tarsus, who uses it in 2 Cor. 12:7-10:
.....6. A meaning accepted by many Christians was that Paul had a person in his life that annoyed him. Paul would then sin (in what way is unknown, probably acting out in anger). This would show him he is man and fallible, still in need of Christ. It kept him from becoming prideful from his many glorious experiences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_in_the_flesh
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
is this Old Testament language?
~
Numbers 33:55
"'But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live.
Ezekiel 28:24
"'No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.
Joshua 23:13
then you may be sure that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you.
1 Thessalonians 2:14
13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers. 14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God’s wrath has come upon them at last!
2 Corinthians 11
12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
2 Corinthians 12:7
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
2 Corinthians 12:10-12
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
~
Thorn in the flesh
The source of this expression is Paul of Tarsus, who uses it in 2 Cor. 12:7-10:
.....6. A meaning accepted by many Christians was that Paul had a person in his life that annoyed him. Paul would then sin (in what way is unknown, probably acting out in anger). This would show him he is man and fallible, still in need of Christ. It kept him from becoming prideful from his many glorious experiences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_in_the_flesh
I wonder if we understand that we are capable of evil? I mean, can we blame every bad or evil or hateful thought that we have on the devil? Are we blameless in our sin? Can we stand before God and say that it is not our fault, but the devil made me do it?
Obviously, Satan is evil, and in him dwells no good thing. The same thing can be said for our flesh. And it is very obvious that our minds need to be renewed, so that they are filled with Jesus Christ, and not the hate and sinfulness that dwells therein.
I hope for the redemption of my body, in the return of Jesus Christ. Why? Because when I have put off this mortal flesh which is corrupted by the lusts of deceit, and have put on immortality, which has been created in righteousness, in Christ Jesus, then will I be as I want to be, a being who is not a sinner before God.
We don't need the devil to make us sin. We do fine on our own. We need God to deliver us from temptation, but also to not remember our sins and iniquities, so we can remain in His presence, where we find life.
Obviously, Satan is evil, and in him dwells no good thing. The same thing can be said for our flesh. And it is very obvious that our minds need to be renewed, so that they are filled with Jesus Christ, and not the hate and sinfulness that dwells therein.
I hope for the redemption of my body, in the return of Jesus Christ. Why? Because when I have put off this mortal flesh which is corrupted by the lusts of deceit, and have put on immortality, which has been created in righteousness, in Christ Jesus, then will I be as I want to be, a being who is not a sinner before God.
We don't need the devil to make us sin. We do fine on our own. We need God to deliver us from temptation, but also to not remember our sins and iniquities, so we can remain in His presence, where we find life.
A
ok that would make sense. the guy was going around trying to pervert the churches with his smooth talking and tell them things that were not revealed to him and claimed to be an apostle of Christ and Paul called him out as a liar but since he was a smoother talker he got people to believe him. The guy also was a mooch that got the churches to feed him and that is why Paul uses the difference between him and Timothy and what the false apostle did and taught.
Paul's Thorn In The Flesh (2nd Cor. 12:7-10)
I think the messengers of Satan that have flesh and most consider to be human as more dangerous then the ones in spirit/demonic form.
Paul's Thorn In The Flesh (2nd Cor. 12:7-10)
I think the messengers of Satan that have flesh and most consider to be human as more dangerous then the ones in spirit/demonic form.