2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

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Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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#21
I agree "departure" is a good translation; however, it cannot and does not mean the rapture. I already wasted a whole day recently debating this question and I don't intend to waste another. If someone wants it to mean rapture they'll find a way to make it mean rapture no matter how much evidence you present to the contrary.
I understand what you're saying, but even if we humor the Pre-tribbers and let "falling away" mean a departure of the church in a pre-trib rapture then it doesn't fit the context of 2 Thess. 2.

Why? Because the departure doesn't occur until Christ returns. Christ doesn't return until after the man of lawlessness is in God's temple claiming to be God. That's solidly a post-trib rapture.

Departure in a pre-trib rapture don't pass the smell test.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#22
No, you are still confused. "departure" is from the word apostasia.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come an apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That is not rapture like you and others have claimed. It is and always has been an apostasy being spoken about. The rapture is not mentioned in that verse.
Its is THE DEPARTURE (noun). Has not the slightest connotation of faithlessness.....OR FAITHFULLNESS for that matter.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#23
I understand what you're saying, but even if we humor the Pre-tribbers and let "falling away" mean a departure of the church in a pre-trib rapture then it doesn't fit the context of 2 Thess. 2.
Yes.

More importantly it doesn't match fixed and well understood definition of Apostasia. It's a falling away or departure from something specific regarding leaving one's faith and all Greek concordances and dictionaries and scholars agree.

It's just a handful of pretribbers that misuse these various tools so they can further their own deception and the deception of others who have a weak foundation in scripture. Those of us that have a strong foundation can properly understand what passage is saying. In no way can Apostasia mean the church departing in a rapture. As I have said before, if someone wants to take part in Apostasia, they will definitely be allowed to do so. It's not going to work out like they are hoping but they refused to listen to us all telling them the truth.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#24
Its is THE DEPARTURE (noun). Has not the slightest connotation of faithlessness.....OR FAITHFULLNESS for that matter.
Rapture is a verb not a noun. Apostasia is a noun and is Apostasy, but go ahead and reject the truth for the nonsense you are promoting.
 

Evmur

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#25
Greetings, @cv5

2 Thessalonians 1:7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,"

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Thessalonians 1:10 "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired (marveled at) in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed).

Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

The subject again of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".

2 Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him.

Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you (confuse you) and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ (the Day of the Lord))" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the 7th trump.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (it will not be), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is apostasy.
The ARSV is best here
".... for that will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition ...."
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#26
The ARSV is best here
".... for that will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition ...."

And more:

(BBE) Give no belief to false words: because there will first be a falling away from the faith, and the revelation of the man of sin, the son of destruction,

(CEV) But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear.

(Darby) Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

(ERV) Don't be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell.

(GNB) Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until the final Rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears, who is destined to hell.

(Murdock) Let no one deceive you in any way; because [that day will not come], unless there previously come a defection, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(TPT) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. Before that day comes the rebellion must occur and the “outlaw”—the destructive son—will be revealed in his true light.

(Weymouth) Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

(WNT) Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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#27
Sorry.....disagree with your conclusion. Take a look at Hebrews 9:8. In Acts 21:21, the meaning there is a departing FROM Moses (and the obsolete apostate religious practices) TO FAITH. Flipped from what people think is the "norm".

It appears to me that over time, translators have redefined the term. I think it should be constrained to a precise meaning " leaving from a previous standing" (quote from Strongs 646).
Yes but it is right to depart from Moses .... it is not right to depart from Christ.

Even YOU admit that apostacy is departure from ... not departure to as it would need to be to fit the rapture.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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#28
And more:

(BBE) Give no belief to false words: because there will first be a falling away from the faith, and the revelation of the man of sin, the son of destruction,

(CEV) But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear.

(Darby) Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

(ERV) Don't be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell.

(GNB) Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until the final Rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears, who is destined to hell.

(Murdock) Let no one deceive you in any way; because [that day will not come], unless there previously come a defection, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(TPT) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. Before that day comes the rebellion must occur and the “outlaw”—the destructive son—will be revealed in his true light.

(Weymouth) Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

(WNT) Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,
The rebellion and the man of rebellion
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#29
Rapture is a verb not a noun. Apostasia is a noun and is Apostasy, but go ahead and reject the truth for the nonsense you are promoting.
Strong's # 646 Noun, Feminine - literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Tell us again how you think that Paul in 2 Thes 2:1-2 is telling us that Christians will miss the second coming?
 

cv5

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#30
"In the first seven English translations of the Bible (Wycliffe Bible 1384, Tyndale Bible 1526, Coverdale Bible 1535, Cranmer Bible 1539, Breeches Bible 1576, Beza Bible 1583, Geneva Bible 1608) the Greek word "apostasia" was correctly translated in context as "departure"."
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#31
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Here the second coming is called "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. and the rapture is called "our gathering together unto him".

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

This day of Christ is directly linked OT the two events of verse 1. Clearly the day of Christ is the day of the second coming and rapture. Paul wants people NOT to be troubled or confused about when these two events happen.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Do not let anyone deceive you about when those two events happen! That day (second coming and rapture) will NOT take place until the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin take place and those are great tribulation related events. This proves that Paul placed the rapture after the events of the great tribulation and it's the second time Paul did this. He did the same here:



2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (also known as the second coming) , and by our gathering together unto him, (reference to the Rapture)

There is a reference to the second coming and the Rapture! That's the subject!

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

A second second coming reference!


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That is the Antichrist! Claiming to be God causes the Apostasy or departing from the Christian faith and that takes place withing the great Tribulation. Paul teaches that the second coming and Rapture will NOT happen until the Apostasy and revealing of the man of sin happens plus he mentions that this man of sin will show himself as God and we know that happening during the great tribulation.


2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The context is regarding the timing of the return of Christ and the rapture. That cannot happen until two important things occur.

1. The falling away/Apostasy
2. and the revealing of the Antichrist
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#32
Strong's # 646 Noun, Feminine - literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
That's not from Strongs. This is:

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#33
"In the first seven English translations of the Bible (Wycliffe Bible 1384, Tyndale Bible 1526, Coverdale Bible 1535, Cranmer Bible 1539, Breeches Bible 1576, Beza Bible 1583, Geneva Bible 1608) the Greek word "apostasia" was correctly translated in context as "departure"."
Apostasy is a departure from Christian faith.
 

cv5

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#34
Apostasy is a departure from Christian faith.
Somebody, anybody, anytime, anywhere find me a Greek manuscript that includes the Greek words "from the faith" in 2Thes 2:3.

I will be perfectly willing to change my mind if they do.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#35
Somebody, anybody, anytime, anywhere find me a Greek manuscript that includes the Greek words "from the faith" in 2Thes 2:3.

It's what the word Apostasia me4eans. You have already been told that but you somehow justify rejecting what concordances and dictionaries and scholars say. Smart decision.
 

cv5

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#36
Apostasy is a departure from Christian faith.
According to you, Acts 21:21 says that apostasy also means a falling TOWARD the Christian faith.

Acts 21:21
"They have been informed now about you that apostasy you teach from Moses those among the gentiles all the Jews telling not to circumcise them the children nor in the customs to walk"

Paul preaching the gospel of salvation in Christ Jesus is "apostasy you teach"? No. Paul was teaching "APOSTASIAN".....DEPARTURE (NOUN). Departing from obsolete, ineffective damning useless Mosaic Judaism.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#37
...and it has nothing whatsoever to do with apostasy.
Since the Greek word is apostasia, how can it not have anything to do with apostasy, a falling away from the faith?

μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον, καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας

The only event to precede the Resurrection/Rapture is the great falling away.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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#38
Yes.

More importantly it doesn't match fixed and well understood definition of Apostasia. It's a falling away or departure from something specific regarding leaving one's faith and all Greek concordances and dictionaries and scholars agree.

It's just a handful of pretribbers that misuse these various tools so they can further their own deception and the deception of others who have a weak foundation in scripture. Those of us that have a strong foundation can properly understand what passage is saying. In no way can Apostasia mean the church departing in a rapture. As I have said before, if someone wants to take part in Apostasia, they will definitely be allowed to do so. It's not going to work out like they are hoping but they refused to listen to us all telling them the truth.
We can also just paste "ἀποστασία" into Google translate. It's translated literally, and most commonly, as apostasy. Google ranks "defection" as the second most common translation, which is in agreement with what the Strong's Concordance says and what Greek scholars agree on.

Literally no one except for a handful of pre-tribbers think apostasia means a departure in a rapture.
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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#39
Somebody, anybody, anytime, anywhere find me a Greek manuscript that includes the Greek words "from the faith" in 2Thes 2:3.

I will be perfectly willing to change my mind if they do.
God has done one better then you ask - He has provided another Faithful Witness who Testifies to the words of the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2: 3

This other Faithful Witness is the Apostle John - He also wrote in full agreement to 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18-19

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

It is complete - the Apostles Paul and John agree -
Apostle Paul - "falling away first"
Apostle John - "they went out from us" -

Apostle Paul - man of sin shall come first
Apostle John - the Antichrist is coming and we are already in the last hour for many antichrists are in the world
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#40
That's not from Strongs. This is:

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
Wrong. Accurately the definition is literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

I truly believe that in 2 Thes 2:3, the Apostle Paul is using the term "apostasis" as a descriptor for our leaving this earth and fallen body. Paul did not use the term RAPTURE here. He used another word with THE SAME ACTION. Different flavor, different nuance, different notion, "a leaving, from a previous standing" fits beautifully into BEING REMOVED FROM THE EARTH and shedding our earthen vessels for glorious new bodies fit for for heaven.