2 Timothy 3:1-9 "In the last days, perilous times shall come..."

cmarieh · Jul 24, 2015

I am going to be completely honest here so please forgive me. But I see many who cannot take correction even in the slightest form and defend their answers when they really shouldn't be defended. I also see people not willing to apologize to others when they misunderstand or misinterpret what is said on the forums.

Jruiz · Jul 24, 2015

Jason0047 said:

1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was."

(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

By the description above, who do you think this describes in these last days?

Apostates...

Jason0047 · Jul 25, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

We know this is talking about professing believers because it says they are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God. So this would describe the lukewarm believer. In addition, it says they have a form of Godliness, but they deny the power thereof. So they have an appearance of outward righteousness. For why are the times so perilous? Is it because unbelievers never had these sinful qualities thru out human history? No. Of course not. So this is a perilous time because professing believers in Jesus have these sinful qualities.

peacefulbeliever · Jul 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I was surprised that you agreed in your first response to my post and I sort of thought you'd be back to disagree!

"For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. . . . men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith."

In fact I thought on this all night [well each time I woke up!] and I did want to add: If we take the characteristics listed as a WHOLE, I believe it is speaking of unbelievers. If I break each characteristic apart SEPARATELY, could believers still have one or a few of these characteristics that they haven't overcome yet? Yes.

Jason0047 · Jul 25, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

I have not changed my position. They are still unbelievers. Professing believers in a false gospel are not true beleivers in Jesus (Whereby Christ lives within them). For anyone who has turned away from the original gospel that is founded on the type of fruit that proves the tree is good has erred from the faith and has become an unbeliever (Turning the gospel of grace into a license to sin on some level). They may profess that they know Jesus but they really don't (Which is evident by the fruit in their life and lack of understanding of His Word). Anyone who has accepted a false Christ or a false gospel would also be an unbeliever. For only the true believer is the one who was regenerated spiritually and has the continued fruit thereof in their life and walk with God.

Besides, let's just say this passage is talking about non-professing believers. If times are so perilous and dark because of their sinful actions, then how much higher of a standard do you expect God's people to be held by? For we are a holy and separate people that is different than the world. So either way you slice it, one must conclude that one must not have the above sins on their record or they are merely having a form of Godliness and denying the power thereof.

Jason0047 · Jul 25, 2015

For again, unbelievers who have not professed Jesus have had these types of sins on their record thru out all of human history. So this can only be talking about the unbelieving professing believer who has accepted another Christ (or another gospel).

Jason0047 · Jul 25, 2015

For the unbelievers I am speaking of here can be broken up into two categories.

#1. Unbelievers - Who profess a false Christ or a false Antinomian gospel.
#2. Unbelievers - Who do not profess Jesus at all.

In many cases, one cannot tell the difference between these two categories. For if one did not profess they were a Christian in many cases, one would have no idea that they were Christian because they behave just like the world. In other words, we are to let our light shine before men. This is the light of Christ within us. If one does not have the light of Christ then they do not have Jesus in their life and they are not saved. Paul said examine whether or not Christ be in you unless you be reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Many times I see Christ's behavior and words on here as absolutely apalling. They talk and act just like an unbeliever would. They do not appear to be changed or born again. That's the point.

Jason0047 · Jul 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

For the unbelievers I am speaking of here can be broken up into two categories.

#1. Unbelievers - Who profess a false Christ or a false Antinomian gospel.
#2. Unbelievers - Who do not profess Jesus at all.

In many cases, one cannot tell the difference between these two categories. For if one did not profess they were a Christian in many cases, one would have no idea that they were Christian because they behave just like the world. In other words, we are to let our light shine before men. This is the light of Christ within us. If one does not have the light of Christ then they do not have Jesus in their life and they are not saved. Paul said examine whether or not Christ be in you unless you be reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Many times I see Christ's behavior and words on here as absolutely apalling. They talk and act just like an unbeliever would. They do not appear to be changed or born again. That's the point.

Edit Correction:

Sorry about the typo.

Meant to say self professing Christian's behavior and words on here as absolutely apalling.

peacefulbeliever · Jul 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I don't get "unbelieving believer"! Either one is a believer or not! Either one is born of God or either one is born of the devil. So . . .
1) a believer will love others in the same degree that they love themselves not totally "lovers of themselves".
2) a believer will not put money first before God - "lovers of money",
3) there are some believers that may be boastful, proud because it is an area in their life that is harder for them to rid themselves of. . . . doesn't make them an unbeliever.
4) a believer will not be abusive, disobedient to parents, or ungrateful
5) a believer will not be unholy for it is the gift of holy Spirit within them [Christ in them] that makes them holy - set apart
6) a believer will not be without love because the Spirit of God dwells in him - the divine nature - and within that nature is the nature of God which is love
7) unforgiving, slanderous, without self control - again these are the fruits of the Spirit and it takes growth to overcome some of these bad habits [characteristics]
8) brutal (savage) - I know of no believer that is brutal . . .
9) a believer loves good and hates bad, i.e. a believer prefers to do good and hates it when they mess up [sin]
10) treacherous (traitor, betrayer) - a believer is the one friend you should be able to share fully with
11) rash - that is a hard old man characteristics to break - reckless decisions. . . oooooh - but doesn't make someone an unbeliever
As for "lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God" - nope - not a mature believer. but maybe a babe in Christ have a hard time putting of the old and putting on the new and may even portray some of these things but it is due to needing more growth not because they are an unbeliever.

What are "non professing believers"? Believers are separate because they are holy - NOT BY WORKS THEY HAVE OR HAVE NOT DONE but because their faith in Jesus Christ has set them apart and made them holy. Unbelievers put on a show - have a "form or semblance" of being a believer but deny any "reverence/respect" towards God. (meanings from Strong's)

Jason0047 · Jul 25, 2015

Lop

peacefulbeliever said:

I don't get "unbelieving believer"! Either one is a believer or not! Either one is born of God or either one is born of the devil. So . . .
1) a believer will love others in the same degree that they love themselves not totally "lovers of themselves".
2) a believer will not put money first before God - "lovers of money",
3) there are some believers that may be boastful, proud because it is an area in their life that is harder for them to rid themselves of. . . . doesn't make them an unbeliever.
4) a believer will not be abusive, disobedient to parents, or ungrateful
5) a believer will not be unholy for it is the gift of holy Spirit within them [Christ in them] that makes them holy - set apart
6) a believer will not be without love because the Spirit of God dwells in him - the divine nature - and within that nature is the nature of God which is love
7) unforgiving, slanderous, without self control - again these are the fruits of the Spirit and it takes growth to overcome some of these bad habits [characteristics]
8) brutal (savage) - I know of no believer that is brutal . . .
9) a believer loves good and hates bad, i.e. a believer prefers to do good and hates it when they mess up [sin]
10) treacherous (traitor, betrayer) - a believer is the one friend you should be able to share fully with
11) rash - that is a hard old man characteristics to break - reckless decisions. . . oooooh - but doesn't make someone an unbeliever
As for "lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God" - nope - not a mature believer. but maybe a babe in Christ have a hard time putting of the old and putting on the new and may even portray some of these things but it is due to needing more growth not because they are an unbeliever.

What are "non professing believers"? Believers are separate because they are holy - NOT BY WORKS THEY HAVE OR HAVE NOT DONE but because their faith in Jesus Christ has set them apart and made them holy. Unbelievers put on a show - have a "form or semblance" of being a believer but deny any "reverence/respect" towards God. (meanings from Strong's)

Your argument is not with me, but it is with what the Word says. A self professing believer who is boastful is seen as having a form of godliness and denying the power thereof. They might have deceived themself that they are a believer and that they are born again, but they will be in for a surprise when they actually meet the LORD. For there are going to be those who said they did many things for him but Jesus will say that He never knew them (and tells them to depart from Him) because they work iniquity (sin).

peacefulbeliever · Jul 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

FYI - I was not arguing with you but discussing with you 2 Timothy 3:1-9. You posted a thread for discussion - I entered into the discussion.

I have a picture of you that I have conceived over the many discussions we have had and the many discussions you have had with others - You seem boastful and prideful in your responses to people. Everybody and I mean EVERYBODY that discusses with you are WRONG, and only you are RIGHT . . . it is a sad thing to see. Note: I am not saying that you are boastful or prideful but that is the impression that comes across in your post.

In Matt., Jesus tells them to depart because they are doing things in his name without having a relationship with him. They have a head knowledge - they know OF God, they know OF Christ but they DO NOT have a relationship with him. They understand they can command things in the name of Jesus Christ, they perceive who he is but that is as deep as it gets . . . . so they are unbelievers and have NOT confessed Jesus as Lord . . . ginosko - to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel; to become known; to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of; to understand; to know; Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman; to become acquainted with, to know . . .
Please do not take my responses as "arguments" for I am honestly discussing - just because we have different views does not mean it's an argument.

VCO · Dec 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:

1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was."

(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

By the description above, who do you think this describes in these last days?

Jason, did you know that the Greek word that translates to "perilous" above, can also be translated "VICIOUS"? When you watch the evening news, it seems like "VICIOUS" would be a more accurate translation.

Adamb12 · Dec 3, 2015

I found out why 99% of christians dont know how the bible was put together. When I say put together, I mean how the 66 books were chosen out of 180+ books, letters,etc., and how they were orderred from Genisis to Revelations as well. The answer is so demoralizing. Why would God choose the Pope to be in charge of this project, and why didnt they show their work on why they felt God told them to pic this book and put it here? Can anyone help?

VCO · Dec 3, 2015

Adamb12 said:

I have a news flash for you, Catholics are among the seven types of Churches that Christ Himself recognized in the first 3 Chapters of Revelation. AND the Catholics recognize more that 66 books. Sounds to me like you read some tainted information from some hyper-pentecostal group, who were into denominational bigotry.

Let me guess, "Was it Chick Tracts?" Jack Chick is a known false prophet, who is big time into Denominational Bigotry.

Adamb12 · Dec 4, 2015

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm just asking if the Word of God is a book. If in the beginning the Word was God and God is the spirit of love that would mean the word is the spirit of love and not the book. Jesus said that the book is not what has everlasting life in it. Revelations John says the stories of Jesus are from the spirit of prophecy. In the Old Testament god told Moses to tell Pharaoh that all of Israel is his first born son. If Constantine and Athanasius we're the ones that God used to put together the 66 books then why don't we see their work on how the spirit told them to choose and where to put it into the order. And why aren't Sunday service conversations talk about this. Love does not demand its own way. God told Israel to not set themselves up a king because kingdoms divided the people. Then the New Testament says that we have a king of kings and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. That doesn't sound like the spirit of love. Syncretism, is a way to think all the religions into one. When Constantine ordered all the religions from all over the world together for this council there were several pagan religions that had the exact same story of a virgin birth a dying and then being resurrected and then becoming the Savior. The demigod religion is exactly what Constantine and Athanasius sync together. If God is love, and for thousands of years people all over the world who lived in South and North America Siberia parts of the world that did not even know about the Torah or Christianity because there was no planes or ships or Facebook. Love does not demand its own way, and so therefore a loving God who created all races of people wouldn't change after thousands of years a new way to get to heaven especially when three quarters of the world has no idea about it. That's just not love

MultilingualMessenger · Dec 4, 2015

Adamb12 said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm just asking if the Word of God is a book. If in the beginning the Word was God and God is the spirit of love that would mean the word is the spirit of love and not the book. Jesus said that the book is not what has everlasting life in it. Revelations John says the stories of Jesus are from the spirit of prophecy. In the Old Testament god told Moses to tell Pharaoh that all of Israel is his first born son. If Constantine and Athanasius we're the ones that God used to put together the 66 books then why don't we see their work on how the spirit told them to choose and where to put it into the order. And why aren't Sunday service conversations talk about this. Love does not demand its own way. God told Israel to not set themselves up a king because kingdoms divided the people. Then the New Testament says that we have a king of kings and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. That doesn't sound like the spirit of love. Syncretism, is a way to think all the religions into one. When Constantine ordered all the religions from all over the world together for this council there were several pagan religions that had the exact same story of a virgin birth a dying and then being resurrected and then becoming the Savior. The demigod religion is exactly what Constantine and Athanasius sync together. If God is love, and for thousands of years people all over the world who lived in South and North America Siberia parts of the world that did not even know about the Torah or Christianity because there was no planes or ships or Facebook. Love does not demand its own way, and so therefore a loving God who created all races of people wouldn't change after thousands of years a new way to get to heaven especially when three quarters of the world has no idea about it. That's just not love

Do you know the Gospel? If so, then share it with those people who don't know it. After all, if you're as concerned as you purport yourself to be here, then you should be trying your darndest to make sure they know. That's love.

And God reveals Himself to all. The Scriptures attest to this. God Himself is Love.

So are you going on missions any time soon? Or are you just feigning concern for the lost and using that feigned concern as your excuse to deny God and His very nature? I suspect it's the latter.

eternallife7 · Dec 4, 2015

I've noticed that when we begin to completely understand scripture the firey darts start to feel like nerf darts if people can understand what I'm trying to say. If I could make a quote I would say learning to see the truth is better than winning arguments everyday

VCO · Dec 4, 2015

Adamb12 said:

2 Timothy 3:15-16 (ISV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures that are able to give you the wisdom you need for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

2 Peter 1:19-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] for prophecy {the telling forth the word of GOD without error} never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

2 Samuel 23:2 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me, His word was on my tongue.

Zechariah 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Isaiah 66:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] All these things my hand has made, and so all these things came to be, declares the LORD. But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word.

Jeremiah 23:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?" declares the LORD.

John 8:43 (NKJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Jeremiah 26:1 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, came this word from Jehovah, saying,

Ezekiel 33:7 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me.

etc., etc., etc.

Choose you this day, whom you will believe.

As for me and my house, we will believe Every WORD from Gen.1:1 thru Rev. 22:21 was inspired by GOD HIMSELF as the Prophets and the Apostles were moved by the HOLY SPIRIT.

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2 Timothy 3:1-9 "In the last days, perilous times shall come..."

cmarieh

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Jruiz

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Jason0047

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peacefulbeliever

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