2 verses that refute all forms of Premillennialism

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,714
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#61
You keep telling God that He has to keep everything invisible. I don't think so. View attachment 191838
Thanks for the reply and opportuiny to express how I hear what I belive the Holy Spirits is conveying as he does give us ears to make it possible..

Sorry in advance for the rambling..

I don't think anyone has to tell our incorruptible invisible God to not change into a thing created as that seen.. Visible man . God has no beginning of Spirt life or end. He remains without mother or father but abides from before the foundation of the world our High Priest after the new order of Melchezedek .

Note …. (purple in parenthesis) my personal offering or private interpretation of what I think His interpretation to us is saying.

For the invisible things of him ( of Him not as Him he has no form ) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, (the temporal seen) even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, (no faith that comes from hearing God) and their foolish heart was darkened.Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory (unseen, the Holy Place) ) of the uncorruptible God into an image (that seen) made like to corruptible man(that seen), and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans 1:20 - 23

The unseen eternal Holy place (not seen) is still "not seen".

God will be the glory when the Sun and Moon are not longer needed as temporal time keepers.

Why would a person have someone else other that God not seen stand in the Holy Place reserved as His glory? The Son of man refused to stand there. Spoken of in Daniel as the abomination of desecration.

When the Son of man as that seen, the temporal was called "good master" knowing the word "good" describes the unseen finger print of God. (And he not seen saw it was "good") The Son of man, Jesus gave glory to the father unseen and said.... Only God is "good". The Son of man refused himself from entering that holy place. He warns us in that way not to call any man on earth father, for one is our father in heaven and in the same way call not man good teacher Rabi master on earth for one is our teaching master in heaven. We are brothers and sisters who share the mutual faith of Christ which comes from hearing God. No man could serve two masters . Christ in respect to the Son of man, Jesus who appeared in corrupted flesh demonstrated that for us .In order to put away sin in the flesh

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.Revelation 21:22-23

Many today I believe have seemed to turned that warning.. "not to call any man on earth "good master" upside down and in doing so take away the understanding of Him "not seen" who does appear in His invisible place as the one source of Christian faith. (not of our own selves)

I would think it would be safe to repent and return to our first love the hearing of God by the labor of his faith working in us, the proper good master. And not like the example of the sect called the Nicolaitanes who left their first love... "hearing God not seen" .

They fell into the trap of the father of lies and put their faith in respect to what the eyes see; " Nicole the leader". Possibly Nicole repented and followed the right order for the new reformed body of Christ. We are warned not to put the faith that comes from hearing God, the Potter not seen in respect that seen. (mankind) .

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Makes me wonder according to Luke 18:8 When he does come on the last day will he find His faith working in the hearts of men or will experience.. I had a dream, or I had a vision be the new gods as good masters just as in the time of Noah following after the imagination of their own heart. No faith!!!
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
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#62
What Job 14: 12 does is prove that the heavens were no more when Christ resurrected along with the Old Testament saints.
Hello KJV1611. Good to see you stirring the pot. You and Locutus and Iamsoandso seem to be mainstays in the eschatology threads. :p

I would have to disagree with you on your quote above. You are basically saying the "heavens" in Job 14: 12 is some form of allegory. That is unwarranted from the context of Job 14. When you combine Job 14: 12 with Rev 20: 11 that is one heck of a coincidence. Also the statements in Ecclesiastes about people never taking part in anything "under the sun" again. That's another way of saying "heavens".

Then we have 2 Peter 3: 5-13 where the return of the Lord is directly contrasted with the antideluvian population of Noah's day. Peter makes a direct contrast between that world being destroyed by PHYSICAL WATER and how this "world" is reserved for fire. Full preterists like Locutus try and spiritualize the "fire" away but Peter gave us a direct contrast that refutes that possibilty. It cannot be allegorized. It is real fire that will destroy this universe when Christ returns. 2 Thess 1: 8 "flaming fire" etc..

So the destruction of the heavens and earth is a real event that cannot be allegorized. There is other verses that bear this out as well.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,242
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#63
So what you are saying is the Bible is lying and contradicting itself. That's the assertion you are making although you probably don't realize it.

If your interpretation is correct then Jesus' resurrection, along with the saints that were raised at His death on the cross, disproves Job 14: 12. We can just throw our Bibles away since it is now proven untrustworthy. premillennialism.
LEts throw em away then. You have the same issue bro:
If Revelation 20 the millennium is now, and satan is deceiving the nations as it says in revelation 12&13 :) indeed it says the WHOLE WORLD.
"so what you are saying is the bible is lying and contradicting itself" right back at ya! :D
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,242
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#64
Yes, I am fully aware of your invisible kingdom doctrine and I do not agree. You will feel foolish if you are still alive when Jesus visually comes back to take over the world.

Rev. 6:16 "calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb," :)
Are you historical premill? What church do you go to? Sorry if i have already asked and you've answered and i have forgotten.
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
10,850
594
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#65
Hello KJV1611. Good to see you stirring the pot. You and Locutus and Iamsoandso seem to be mainstays in the eschatology threads. :p

I would have to disagree with you on your quote above. You are basically saying the "heavens" in Job 14: 12 is some form of allegory. That is unwarranted from the context of Job 14. When you combine Job 14: 12 with Rev 20: 11 that is one heck of a coincidence. Also the statements in Ecclesiastes about people never taking part in anything "under the sun" again. That's another way of saying "heavens".

Then we have 2 Peter 3: 5-13 where the return of the Lord is directly contrasted with the antideluvian population of Noah's day. Peter makes a direct contrast between that world being destroyed by PHYSICAL WATER and how this "world" is reserved for fire. Full preterists like Locutus try and spiritualize the "fire" away but Peter gave us a direct contrast that refutes that possibilty. It cannot be allegorized. It is real fire that will destroy this universe when Christ returns. 2 Thess 1: 8 "flaming fire" etc..

So the destruction of the heavens and earth is a real event that cannot be allegorized. There is other verses that bear this out as well.
It's like everything else in the bible delirious, there are two of everything - one allegorical and the other literal. Since dead men came out of the grave at Christ's resurrection and the literal heavens didn't disappear then we would have to believe that Jobs heavens weren't literal heavens.... at least that's how I see it.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,242
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#66
That's all in your mind.

I'll stick to what Scripture says. Scripture SPECIFICALLY says satan is UNABLE to deceive the nations. NOT that he is merely weakened.

And how the heck can you spiritualize the passage I posted when it says IN THE LAND!
What land is he talking about?
The invisible land in heaven LOL.

Sorry i couldnt resist
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
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#68
Satan has been bound from deceiving God's people and he was defeated at the cross.

Revelation 20:1-3
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Keep in mind that the "thousand years" is not a literal 1,000, but the original Greek word, "chiloi" is PLURAL of one thousand which would be "chilias" Ergo: the plural used shows that more than 1,000 is meant there.

Satan was bound from deceiving the ELECT in Matt 24.
There is no reason to not let Satan have reign over the rest.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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#69
"sticking to scripture" is best......but only if you understand it.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#70
Satan has been bound from deceiving God's people and he was defeated at the cross.

Revelation 20:1-3
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Keep in mind that the "thousand years" is not a literal 1,000, but the original Greek word, "chiloi" is PLURAL of one thousand which would be "chilias" Ergo: the plural used shows that more than 1,000 is meant there.

Satan was bound from deceiving the ELECT in Matt 24.
There is no reason to not let Satan have reign over the rest.
How come he is still roaming around like a lion seeking whom he may devour? deceiving the entire world, all the nations? Revelation chapter 12 revelation chapter 13
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
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#71
He was typing in large letters. Just like Paul typed in caps lock to the galatians, its biblical! Not yelling at all, just typing in large letters!
Paul TYPED??????? and in CAPS??????
I must have missed that scripture about heavenly typewriters and using of caps.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
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#72
How come he is still roaming around like a lion seeking whom he may devour? deceiving the entire world, all the nations? Revelation chapter 12 revelation chapter 13
I said Satan was bound from deceiving the ELECT. That leaves a whole lot of other peoples.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
#74
LEts throw em away then. You have the same issue bro:
If Revelation 20 the millennium is now, and satan is deceiving the nations as it says in revelation 12&13 :) indeed it says the WHOLE WORLD.
"so what you are saying is the bible is lying and contradicting itself" right back at ya!
The Book of Revelation tells us in the very first verse it is encoded in symbols. It is apocalyptic literature. Job is not apocalyptic literature. Dispensationalists will falsely claim that using a literal hermeneutic for everything is being faithful to Scriptures. They will claim that an amillennialist or preterist or postmillennialist "allegorize" things and can't be trusted. This is simply false and is good at fooling simple minded people who are not good critical thinkers. Even premillennialists don't believe the beast of Revelation literally has seven heads and ten horns. They are not even consistent with their own hermeneutic.

Paul said to Timothy, "Study to show yourself approved rightly dividing the Word of truth". That takes practice and a keen eye. No way around it.

"Deceiving the nations" is an ambiguous phrase. This is why it is debated. We are both using presuppositions to draw our conclusions because the phrase is sufficiently vague.

In regards to the 1,000 years it can only be interpreted symbolically. I have shown from the 2 verses I provided at the beginning of this thread that it is impossible to interpret it literally.

So nothing I am saying is contradicting the Bible or making it lie. It's called rightly dividing. A term I loathe because dispensationalists love it so much. It's ironic that they "wrongly divide" so many things on eschatology.

Anyways, I apologize if I come across a bit rough. Not my intention. I am a no nonsense kind of person and am passionate about Scripture. I know you weren't claiming the Bible is lying and I apologize if you thought I was saying that about you.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
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#76
NEWS FLASH, premilleniaism isn't "historic" unless you consider the 19th century musings of mystics "historic". This teaching became popular with the imaginings of Scofield, who had a "revelation" about dispensationalism which led to a more sophisticated view of former premil views made popular by his odious "bible study notes".

These false teachings were propagated by those who followed Scofield's theology and ingrained in theology students who bought the mess of pottage while atteding Dallas Theological Semiinary, which was started by Chafer, an avid student of Scofield. This seminary is so bad that in later years it actually had Charels Swindoll (OR CHARLES SWINDLE) as president!
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
1,871
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#77
Nevertheless, the 2 verses I provided are very clear verses. This is probably why my opponents are having difficulty responding to them. Anyways, I wanted to test them and if I offend anyone that is definitely not my intention. I am passionate for God's Word like many people on here. :)
I didn't realize your opponents had any trouble responding... I'm sure they'll be surprised to hear this news.
:)

Oh, and if you don't change your position, you're a horrible person who hates puppies and kittens.

...
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
#78
Since dead men came out of the grave at Christ's resurrection and the literal heavens didn't disappear then we would have to believe that Jobs heavens weren't literal heavens.... at least that's how I see it.
Job 14: 12 is talking about mankind in general. This requires a little common sense from people. The resurrection of Jesus and some saints at His death on the cross is not what Job is referring to in Job 14: 12. He is talking about mankind in general and that they will not rise until the heavens cease to exist. He even makes that clear by saying that they are "sleeping". The idea is that they will rise at some point which will be after "the heavens are no more".

Where do we find the same language about "man"?

Hebrews 9: 27, " It is given to man once to die and then the judgment." This is a general statement for all mankind and is very similar to Job 14: 12. But we know from 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-17 that there will be a generation that will be raptured alive and will never taste death.

The idea is, generally speaking, man will not rise until the heavens are no more and that he will die once only.

Applying your logic further from your quote above and saying the "heavens" in Job 14: 12 aren't really literal then we would have to say that the "death" in Hebrews 9: 27 isn't really literal either if you are going to be consistent with your hermeneutic. This of course would be ridiculous since people are physically dying every day. You are cherry picking.

This is the problem with full-preterism. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It descends into making every verse that doesn't agree with your eschatology say whatever you want. We will just spiritualize that one without any warrant! There has to be justification from the context. There is no justification in Job 14: 12 to make "heavens are no more" figurative. There are many examples that I have given in this thread that show it should be taken literally.

Before I get flamed by premillennialists let me reiterate again, you spiritualize a passage when there is warrant for taking the verse or passage as figurative language. When it is literal obviously you take it at face value. There is no warrant at all to take Job 14: 12 as figurative. If you can provide an argument otherwise I am more than willing to consider it.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,714
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#79
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.(Rev. 20)

Now, the amillennial view views the 1,000 years as not a literal 1,000 years but an period of time that is not to be taken literally. That view says we are in this symbolic 1,000 years right now. If so, then Satan is bound right now. However, I do not see that as being plausible. Look at all the evil in the world right now.

Also, it says after the 1,000 years, he will be set free for a short time. ~2,000 years hardly constitutes a short time.
When we look at all the evil in the world right now we know we are under the authority of the temporal as that seen, the Sun and Moon still over us as temporal time keepers to measure day hours seasons etc. and not under the feet of His bride the church as what we will be on the last day .

The binding does not mean he has been cast into the lake of fire and we have received our new incorruptible bodies . But when the veil was rent the father of lies fell from the place he was in Job 1 coming with the angles that did not leave their first place of habitation.

If we look to the spiritual understanding hid in the parables . We know the last day has not come. The new heavens and earth as that incorruptible (no aging in a process leading to death ) is still waiting for the end of the metaphoric thousands years .The last day.

Satan is bound by the gospel key it alone unlocks the gates of hell .Satan remains in the never ending bottomless pit. It will be cast into the lake of fire on the last day along with those who had no faith .Neither will rise to new spirit life. As long as there are lies in this corrupted world he remains the father of them

In Job 19:15, Job was given the hearing of faith to believe he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth in his new incorruptible flesh along with us.

In John six times we have the witness of the "last day" when in the twinkling of the eye those who died without faith with receive the judgement the second death and those freely given a mew spirit that rises to receive the promise of the new incorruptible body

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


John 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.



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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,714
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#80
But at the end of the 1,000 years Satan will be loosed for a short time. He is bound now if the 1,000 years is symbolic and not literal, my friend.
What is that does bind the father of lies from now as that which will loosed later if not the gospel.?