Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

IMINJC · Mar 13, 2012

Laodicea

I thought those were the posts that you were referring to..as I said, I read all of those posts very carefully. Those post don't answer my question at all. My Question was a Yes or No answer. Those post avoid the question and instead you give your opinion of why the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. And it is your opinion since the Bible does not call it a parable and since the style that Jesus uses to tell the story doesn't fit the definition of what a parable is. The story teller of this story believed these events to be true...or else the story fits the definition of a Myth, or a Fable, or a Tall Tale..or since historical figures were quoted...a Lie.

The following statement is not MY OPINION; it is a QUOTE from Jesus that He (Not Me) claimed Abraham made and it is found in the Bible, No it was not taken from my own personal note books:

LUKE 16:25-26

25 "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

shroom2 · Mar 13, 2012

IMINJC said:

SHROOM2

Do you really believe that Abraham was sitting there with Lazarus at his bosom, surrounded by hundreds of thousands (millions?) of other dead believers, and "just across the gulf" were millions of people screaming in their torments? And that those supposedly in Paradise get to spend their relaxing days listening to those screams? Is that really the picture you have of Paradise?

Yes I do believe it...because Jesus is the one that said it..and you should believe it also for the same reason.

I can just here you now talking to Jesus... "Jesus did you really expect me to believe that Abraham was sitting there with Lazarus at his bosom, surrounded by hundreds of thousands (millions?) of other dead believers, and "just across the gulf" were millions of people screaming in their torments? And that those supposedly in Paradise get to spend their relaxing days listening to those screams? Is that really the picture you wanted me to have of Paradise?"

LoL..Myself and many other posters have answered this question over and over and over on this thread...you go back and read some of those, I'm not going to answer it again here.

How about providing a link to an explanation you believe is valid?

2knowhim · Mar 13, 2012

shroom2 said:

The Real Meaning of The Rich Man and Lazarus by Dr. Ernest Martin

Not that you will read it but here ya go.

Blessings

shroom2 · Mar 13, 2012

2knowhim said:

Why wouldn't I read it?

Thanks for posting it. It backs up what we have been saying. It is a parable. Here is a quote (red is mine):

This section of Scripture has been more misunderstood by students of the Bible than many other parts of the divine revelation. There is a definite reason for it! It is the assumption that Christ is relating a story of literal occurrences, rather than an account rehearsed in parable form. The truth is, however, the narrative is a parable from beginning to end. Once this important point is understood, the meaning becomes clear and significant.

redemption · Mar 13, 2012

note to self: When Gods word contradicts what I choose in fleshly pride to believe, refer to that section of Gods word as parable rather than seeking truth. You guys are banging your heads against the wall btw but keep it up cause its fun to read.

shroom2 · Mar 13, 2012

redemption said:

God's Word teaches that dead people are dead. It is wrong teaching, and unwillingness to listen to God's Word that causes people to believe that dead people aren't dead. They would rather believe satan's lie: "ye shall not surely die".

redemption · Mar 13, 2012

redemption said:

Shroom, explain... this passage & all the others that Red & others have quoted. To say believing this passage is of satan is to err & just plain silly.

shroom2 · Mar 13, 2012

redemption said:

Who said it was of satan? Not me.

Jesus was dead for three days and three nights. Neither he, nor the thief, went anywhere except to the grave. Three days later, God raised Jesus from the dead. The thief is still dead, and will remain so until the upcoming resurrection of the just. He will be in paradise, just as Jesus promised. But for now, he remains dead.

The comma is in the wrong place. I should be something like:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

It emphasized the truth of what he was saying.

In our vernacular, we might say:

I'm telling you right now that you will be with me in paradise.

redemption · Mar 13, 2012

so I assume by your post that you do not consider Jesus to be one with the Father?

shroom2 · Mar 13, 2012

redemption said:

Why do you say that? Jesus said that he and the Father are one.

I do believe that it means one in purpose. Only God is God. Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

...but this is getting off topic for this thread.

Laodicea · Mar 13, 2012

IMINJC said:

There are several reasons I did not give you a direct answer.

1) I asked you a question first which you did not answer. I asked you to show me from the Bible that it is not a parable. You claimed to answer it but, there was no Bible in that post only your opinion.

2) I showed you reasons why from the Bible it is a parable, that should be enough to give you an answer.

3) Shroom 2 already gave you a direct answer.

Red33 · Mar 13, 2012

Mt 22:31-33

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

shroom2 · Mar 13, 2012

Red33 said:

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead,

Dead people will be made alive at the upcoming resurrections.

GreenNnice · Mar 13, 2012

IMINJC said:

Shroom2, when you are in Paradise you will neither hear nor see their screams.
Trust in God, my friend, we WILL be in 'Paradise' just like the thief who was on the cross with Jesus and is now with Him

Verily I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise .

Either way, put the comma wherever you want, LOL, but, yeah, do of, who cares, bottom line, we WILL be with God in Paradise.

When is 'today'?

Who cares?

God's promise is REAL, John 3:16 is not a parable, LOL. Everlasting life.

So Jesus was just dumb and ignorant on the cross--and He had to be if your comma is placed AFTER the word 'today,' .

I mean, what else could it be?

Jesus did not lie and Jesus did not deceive (the thief).

Jesus was an ignorant .

Or, was Jesus just being a nice guy, not telling guy 'today' meant I will raise you up in 2000 or so years, LOL.

---
Again, as I said before, not even talking about the fact that Jesus spoke of s real person's name,and, I am not talking, Lazarus, I am talking Abraham, LOL . God really did dream up that elaborate of a 'hell' story to make a point at the unbelievers who were 'deriding' Him ?.

Don't
make
me
laugh.

That was NO little insignificant story, that was Truth for those Sadduccees to SEE where scoffers and hurters of Christ unbelievers go.

Straight to hell ! For life !

And, let me tell you, it is for a loooooooong life

GreenNnice · Mar 13, 2012

GreenNnice said:

Shroom2, when you are in Paradise you will neither hear nor see their screams.
Trust in God, my friend, we WILL be in 'Paradise' just like the thief who was on the cross with Jesus and is now with Him

Verily I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise .

Either way, put the comma wherever you want, LOL, but, yeah, do of, who cares, bottom line, we WILL be with God in Paradise.

When is 'today'?

Who cares?

God's promise is REAL, John 3:16 is not a parable, LOL. Everlasting life.

So Jesus was just dumb and ignorant on the cross--and He had to be if your comma is placed AFTER the word 'today,' .

I mean, what else could it be?

Jesus did not lie and Jesus did not deceive (the thief).

Jesus was an ignorant .

Or, was Jesus just being a nice guy, not telling guy 'today' meant I will raise you up in 2000 or so years, LOL.

---
Again, as I said before, not even talking about the fact that Jesus spoke of s real person's name,and, I am not talking, Lazarus, I am talking Abraham, LOL . God really did dream up that elaborate of a 'hell' story to make a point at the unbelievers who were 'deriding' Him ?.

Don't
make
me
laugh.

That was NO little insignificant story, that was Truth for those Sadduccees to SEE where scoffers and hurters of Christ unbelievers go.

Straight to hell ! For life !

And, let me tell you, it is for a loooooooong life

_____
Will a Loving God send others to Hell ?

I don't know (and, you don't know either, and, I could care less about your near-death experiences), all I know is that I will die someday unless God just whisks me away, and, I would sure HATE to be....

wrong.

shroom2 · Mar 13, 2012

GreenNnice said:

Amen!

As to the rest of your commentary, I disagree.

IMINJC · Mar 14, 2012

LAODICEA

YOU SAID: 1)"I asked you a question first which you did not answer. I asked you to show me from the Bible that it is not a parable. You claimed to answer it but, there was no Bible in that post only your opinion.

The statements that are highlighted are all lies and I will prove it.

"which you did not answer".... All I have done is answer your question..and here it is again..

LUKE 16:25-26

25 "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Fact: The Bible does not refer to this as a parable

Fact: Jesus quotes Abraham when soul sleep says his soul should have been sleep!

FACT: (JESUS GIVES NO EXPLANATION OF DENOUNCING SOUL CONSCIOUSNESS AFTER DEATH) Jesus made no attempt to "Clean this up" (I know you wish He had)... He left it just as He said it.

*NOW YOU TELL ME HOW ANY OF THE ABOVE IS MY OPINION? ALL STATED ABOVE ARE FACTS.

"I asked you to show me from the Bible that it is not a parable."

"there was no Bible in that post only your opinion."

LUKE 16:25-26

25 "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

How many times do I have to do it?...this is from the Bible. It is a quote from Jesus of a known dead person with no explanation of support for soul sleep.

Ever wonder why Jesus didn't correct the disciples when they thought He was a ghost walking on the water? (So that proves that the desciples didn't believe in soul sleep..Why didn't Jesus set them straight?)

Why didn't Jesus take the opportunity to support soul sleep after the transfiguration? Two other dead people were there also...well one dead person for sure. Moses should have been sleep (according to you) and he was there "talking" to Jesus.... Jesus didn't "Clean that one up either"...why not?

Now I have given you three examples (there are many more)FROM THE BIBLE where Jesus personally supported soul consciousness after death...I challenge you to give me (1)....ONE...where Jesus PERSONALLY support the theory of Soul Sleep.

IMINJC · Mar 14, 2012

SHROOM

YOU SAID: "How about providing a link to an explanation you believe is valid?"

If I felt like doing that i would have done it..thats why I posted the following.

"LoL..Myself and many other posters have answered this question over and over and over on this thread...you go back and read some of those, I'm not going to answer it again here."

So in other words....do it yourself.

peacefulbeliever · Mar 14, 2012

IMINJC said:

No, the Bible does not come out and say that "this is a parable". We are to study to show ourselves approved unto God -

FACT: This is what God says about death: Psalm 146:2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. In contrast to: v4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc. 9:5a For the living know that they shall die: In contrast to: 5b) but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks.
Psalm 30:9 What profit is there in my blood when I go down to the pit (grave)? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
Psalm 88:11a Shall thy loving kindness be declared in the grave?
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Isaiah 38:18, 19 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit (grave) can not hope in thy truth. In contrast to: 19a) The living, the living; he shall praise thee as I do this day:. . . .
Those that have died are silent - they can know longer praise the LORD - they can no longer declare God's truth - they have no knowledge, nor remembrance, nor emotions. That is what God says - anything else is contrary to what God has said.

FACT: God uses the word "sleep" for death because sleep illustrates the condition of death. For there is coming a resurrection of the dead wherein all the dead will rise - awake.
Psalm 17: 15 As for me, I will behold thy faith in righteousness: I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness.
Deut. 31:14,16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold thy days approach that thou must die. . . .And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;. 2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee,. . . . .
1 Kings 1:21 Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers. . . .
Job 7:21. . .for now shall I sleep in the dust. . . .
Job 14:10,12 But man dieth and wasteth away: yea man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?. . . So man lieth down, and riseth not : till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. (Man will not awake until the heavens be no more) (See also Acts 3:21; 2 Peter 3:7)
Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD, my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death.
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers and saw corruption. . . .
1 Co. 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1 Co. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. . . . .
1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him

The disciples had never seen anyone walk on water therefore they thought he was a ghost/spirit.
Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

I hope you will not ignore the contents of this post - but if you do hopefully someone else will get something from it.

Laodicea · Mar 14, 2012

IMINJC said:

Are you saying that your whole doctrine is formed on 3 words? That is not how a doctrine is to be formed for we are to take all the verses on a subject put them together to form a doctrine.

If what you are saying is true and we go to heaven or hell when we die that means we are rewarded at death, that means Jesus contradicted Himself, we are following a liar for Jesus said we are rewarded when He returns
Matthew 16:27
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Also Jesus referred to death as a sleep
John 11:11-14
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

How does what Jesus said here fit into what you are saying or did Jesus contradict Himself. For according to what you are saying then He must of contradicted Himself.

When Jesus returns He will wake people up
Daniel 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

IMINJC said:

[FONT=&quot]The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable Look at the way Jesus starts His parables
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 10:30[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(30) And Jesus answering said, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A certain man [/FONT][FONT=&quot]went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 12:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(16) And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a certain rich man[/FONT][FONT=&quot] brought forth plentifully:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 13:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(6) He spake also this parable;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] A certain man [/FONT][FONT=&quot]had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 14:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(16) Then said he unto him, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A certain man[/FONT][FONT=&quot] made a great supper, and bade many:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 15:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(11) And he said, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A certain man[/FONT][FONT=&quot] had two sons:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 16:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(1) And he said also unto his disciples, There was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a certain rich man,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 19:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(12) He said therefore, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A certain nobleman[/FONT][FONT=&quot] went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Luke 20:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(9) Then began he to speak to the people this parable; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A certain man[/FONT][FONT=&quot] planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

Notice how all these parables start now look at how the parable of the rich man and Lazarus starts.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 16:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(19) There was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a certain rich man,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:[/FONT]

Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

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