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I
SHROOM2
YOU SAID: "How does that prove that the dead aren't really dead?"
Well it shows that the discipiles certainly didn't believe that the dead wasn't dead as you do, they most certainly believed that the "Spirit" continues to live after death...And Jesus who according to the Soul Sleep crowed is the Master of the Soul Sleep Theology..interesting enough does not take the opportunity to correct them on their belief. Instead He encourages them in it.
YOU SAID: "How does that prove that the dead aren't really dead?"
Well it shows that the discipiles certainly didn't believe that the dead wasn't dead as you do, they most certainly believed that the "Spirit" continues to live after death...And Jesus who according to the Soul Sleep crowed is the Master of the Soul Sleep Theology..interesting enough does not take the opportunity to correct them on their belief. Instead He encourages them in it.
How does it show that? It says they thought they saw a spirit. It does not say they thought they saw Jesus' soul.
How can you say that? It does not "most certainly" show they believe the soul lives on. It says they thought they saw a spirit.
How is saying "for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" encouraging them to believe the soul lives on after death? I honestly do not understand your reasoning in this. He is plainly saying he is NOT a spirit.
Don't forget, God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. He was dead. After God raised him, he was alive.
How can you say that? It does not "most certainly" show they believe the soul lives on. It says they thought they saw a spirit.
How is saying "for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" encouraging them to believe the soul lives on after death? I honestly do not understand your reasoning in this. He is plainly saying he is NOT a spirit.
Don't forget, God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. He was dead. After God raised him, he was alive.
I
SHROOM2
When God looks at a man he sees a Soul....when he looks at a mans Spirit seperate from the Body He still sees a Soul. It is the Soul that must get saved..a Mans mind, will, and emotions. The Man's Soul came directly from God, this is the part of us that He knew before the foundations of the world. The Soul was not formed from the dust of the ground...so at the point of death it leaves the Body with the Spirit.... For example.. Franks is Frank when he exists as flesh and blood, and he is still Frank when he exists only as a Spirit because the Soul is present in both states.
I dont understand why some see the Spirit of man as just breath when we know that God Himself is Spirit, is He just breath? The Angel's are Spirit Beings and are they just breath? We were not only made in His image but we were also made in His LIKENESS....That's why we are not just flesh and blood but also Spirit.
NUMBERS 16:22
22And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Spirits have form and shape and can speak.
2 Chronicles 18
20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
JOB 4:15-16
15Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: 16 It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,
Luk 24:39-40
"Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet."
Jesus implies here that the only difference between a living person and a Spirit is that a Spirit is not flesh and bone. Notice Jesus did not say that.. "A Spirit can't walk as you see me doing"... "A Spirit can't talk as you hear me doing"... or even "There are no such thing as living Souls after death." He only said that "A Spirit is not flesh and bone."
Here is an example of Souls in Spirit form:
REVELATION 6:8
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
When God looks at a man he sees a Soul....when he looks at a mans Spirit seperate from the Body He still sees a Soul. It is the Soul that must get saved..a Mans mind, will, and emotions. The Man's Soul came directly from God, this is the part of us that He knew before the foundations of the world. The Soul was not formed from the dust of the ground...so at the point of death it leaves the Body with the Spirit.... For example.. Franks is Frank when he exists as flesh and blood, and he is still Frank when he exists only as a Spirit because the Soul is present in both states.
I dont understand why some see the Spirit of man as just breath when we know that God Himself is Spirit, is He just breath? The Angel's are Spirit Beings and are they just breath? We were not only made in His image but we were also made in His LIKENESS....That's why we are not just flesh and blood but also Spirit.
NUMBERS 16:22
22And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Spirits have form and shape and can speak.
2 Chronicles 18
20Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
JOB 4:15-16
15Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: 16 It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,
Luk 24:39-40
"Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet."
Jesus implies here that the only difference between a living person and a Spirit is that a Spirit is not flesh and bone. Notice Jesus did not say that.. "A Spirit can't walk as you see me doing"... "A Spirit can't talk as you hear me doing"... or even "There are no such thing as living Souls after death." He only said that "A Spirit is not flesh and bone."
Here is an example of Souls in Spirit form:
REVELATION 6:8
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
There are you getting this from?
In other words, the man himself. A human being consisting of a body energized by soul.
You keep saying that, and I know you believe it, but you have not shown that is what happens, except from the parable of Luke 16.
God does not create soul individually for each person. He did create soul in Adam. Adam and Eve had children, and Adam's soul life passed down to Cain, Abel, and Seth (and others). We are all descended from Adam (Acts 17:26).
When Frank dies, he is dead. His spirit, if he had it, returns to God who gave it.
Not all people have spirit (1 cor 2:14). Spirit refers to the gift from God people receive when they are saved. When a person acts on Rom 10:9, he receives the gift of holy spirit. Until this happens, he has no spirit (in a literal sense). Occasionally you will see references to "the spirit of man", but it's simply talking about his life, his heart and mind.
Yes, I agree that spirit beings can come into concretion. Beings in this category are angels and demons, and God Himself.
How is Jesus implying that?
Right. How are you getting from that to your belief that dead people live on?
That was a vision given to John. It means people will die in the upcoming tribulation.
IMINJC, dead people need to be resurrected. Raised from the dead. I believe Job said he knew he would "live again". He will, at the resurrection of the just.
Sorry, but you are not persuading me that dead people live on after they die. I believe the bible is quite clear that this life is all we have, until one of the upcoming resurrections.
God bless.
In other words, the man himself. A human being consisting of a body energized by soul.
You keep saying that, and I know you believe it, but you have not shown that is what happens, except from the parable of Luke 16.
God does not create soul individually for each person. He did create soul in Adam. Adam and Eve had children, and Adam's soul life passed down to Cain, Abel, and Seth (and others). We are all descended from Adam (Acts 17:26).
When Frank dies, he is dead. His spirit, if he had it, returns to God who gave it.
Not all people have spirit (1 cor 2:14). Spirit refers to the gift from God people receive when they are saved. When a person acts on Rom 10:9, he receives the gift of holy spirit. Until this happens, he has no spirit (in a literal sense). Occasionally you will see references to "the spirit of man", but it's simply talking about his life, his heart and mind.
Yes, I agree that spirit beings can come into concretion. Beings in this category are angels and demons, and God Himself.
How is Jesus implying that?
Right. How are you getting from that to your belief that dead people live on?
That was a vision given to John. It means people will die in the upcoming tribulation.
IMINJC, dead people need to be resurrected. Raised from the dead. I believe Job said he knew he would "live again". He will, at the resurrection of the just.
Sorry, but you are not persuading me that dead people live on after they die. I believe the bible is quite clear that this life is all we have, until one of the upcoming resurrections.
God bless.
I
SHROOM2
"When God looks at a man he sees a Soul....when he looks at a mans Spirit seperate from the Body He still sees a Soul."
YOU ASKED: Where are you getting this from?
Example in scripture of when Man is in flesh and blood form and seen as Souls:
ACTS 2:41
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Example of when Man is in Spirit form and seen as souls:
REVELATION 6:9-11
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
I know you dismiss this FACT by saying "It's just a vision." I don't have the time to debate that with you so I will just point out that John saw "Souls" under God's Alter obviously seperate from their slain bodies on the earth..."Talking" and "Remembering" and "Wearing" white robes. Now according to you, shouldn't these Souls be sleep?
I know what you believe, but to describe a Soul as some kind of lifeless electricity that gives life to man like a Frankenstein is just not scriptural. Now it is a FACT that the Bibles says that INTELLIGENT SOULS were under God's Alter
and you can't show me 1 verse of scripture that say's that a Soul is sleep at death or that a Soul is just some kind of Juice for life.
YOU SAID: "In other words, the man himself. A human being consisting of a body energized by soul."
No..the body is energized by pumping blood through a healthy beating heart, and is futher sustained and energized by eating a substance from that which it was made from...earth. The flesh has noting to do with the Spirit.
The Soul and Spirt is sustained by which it came from...God.
"When God looks at a man he sees a Soul....when he looks at a mans Spirit seperate from the Body He still sees a Soul."
YOU ASKED: Where are you getting this from?
Example in scripture of when Man is in flesh and blood form and seen as Souls:
ACTS 2:41
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Example of when Man is in Spirit form and seen as souls:
REVELATION 6:9-11
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
I know you dismiss this FACT by saying "It's just a vision." I don't have the time to debate that with you so I will just point out that John saw "Souls" under God's Alter obviously seperate from their slain bodies on the earth..."Talking" and "Remembering" and "Wearing" white robes. Now according to you, shouldn't these Souls be sleep?
I know what you believe, but to describe a Soul as some kind of lifeless electricity that gives life to man like a Frankenstein is just not scriptural. Now it is a FACT that the Bibles says that INTELLIGENT SOULS were under God's Alter
and you can't show me 1 verse of scripture that say's that a Soul is sleep at death or that a Soul is just some kind of Juice for life.
YOU SAID: "In other words, the man himself. A human being consisting of a body energized by soul."
No..the body is energized by pumping blood through a healthy beating heart, and is futher sustained and energized by eating a substance from that which it was made from...earth. The flesh has noting to do with the Spirit.
The Soul and Spirt is sustained by which it came from...God.
I
Shroom2
YOU SAID: "God does not create soul individually for each person. He did create soul in Adam. Adam and Eve had children, and Adam's soul life passed down to Cain, Abel, and Seth (and others). We are all descended from Adam" (Acts 17:26).
This is certainly true if you see the Soul as some kind of juice to give life to the body, but the Bible just doesn't support that theory.
It is a FACT that we all descended from Adam...but we do have our own seperate Souls from Adams. We all had our own seperate existences inside of Adam, but originally first inside of God. We had our identities before we put on a fleshly body. How do I know this to be true?
JERIMIAH 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
EPHESIANS 1:3
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
These scriptures are speaking of US as individuals before we put on this corruptible body. And again it says....
HEBREWS 7:9
9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
So we do exist as seperate Souls from Adam.
YOU SAID: "God does not create soul individually for each person. He did create soul in Adam. Adam and Eve had children, and Adam's soul life passed down to Cain, Abel, and Seth (and others). We are all descended from Adam" (Acts 17:26).
This is certainly true if you see the Soul as some kind of juice to give life to the body, but the Bible just doesn't support that theory.
It is a FACT that we all descended from Adam...but we do have our own seperate Souls from Adams. We all had our own seperate existences inside of Adam, but originally first inside of God. We had our identities before we put on a fleshly body. How do I know this to be true?
JERIMIAH 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
EPHESIANS 1:3
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
These scriptures are speaking of US as individuals before we put on this corruptible body. And again it says....
HEBREWS 7:9
9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
So we do exist as seperate Souls from Adam.
I
SHROOM2
YOU SAID: "Not all people have spirit (1 cor 2:14). Spirit refers to the gift from God people receive when they are saved. When a person acts on Rom 10:9, he receives the gift of holy spirit. Until this happens, he has no spirit (in a literal sense). Occasionally you will see references to "the spirit of man", but it's simply talking about his life, his heart and mind."
1 CORINTHIANS 2:14
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.</SPAN>
This verse of scripture says nothing about certain Men not posessing a Spirit. This verse just simply says that people that have not received Christ as their Savior are still carnal minded and fleshly driven and therefore they are refered here as Natural beings.... certainly not Spiritual beings. This verse means that the unredeemed unrepented Soul on the street does not understand the things of God, but it does not mean that they don't have a Spirit.
This verse..among many others says "All Men" have a Spirit:
1 CORINTHIANS 2:11
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Where is the Spirit of Man?..."In Him"... (FACT)
YOU SAID: "Occasionally you will see references to "the spirit of man", but it's simply talking about his life, his heart and mind."
Once again this is your opinion...show me the verse that proves this is a "FACT" as I have done.
YOU SAID: "When a person acts on Rom 10:9, he receives the gift of holy spirit. Until this happens, he has no spirit (in a literal sense).
God creates us all individually and He creates us very simular to how He created Eve. Adam was creatd directly from the dust of the ground, Eve's body was formed from Adams Rib...Now when God finished forming Adam's body He breathed the breath of life into it and it became a living Soul. So it is only safe to conclude that He did that same thing when He finished forming Eve's body as well as Jerimiah"s....
JERIMIAH 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
If a Man is created in the likeness of God he must have a Spirit, because God is Spirit. Everyone has a Spirit, but not everyones Spirit has been made alive or "quickend" as the Word puts it. It does not indicate in scripture that a Spirit is "CREATED" inside of a Man at that point of Salvation, but it does indicate that the Spirit already in Man is "Awakened" or "Quickened" or "Brought to Life." You can't "Awaken" or "Arouse" something that's not already there. It's there already, it's just not interested in the things of God, it's only interested in the things of this world.
YOU SAID: "Not all people have spirit (1 cor 2:14). Spirit refers to the gift from God people receive when they are saved. When a person acts on Rom 10:9, he receives the gift of holy spirit. Until this happens, he has no spirit (in a literal sense). Occasionally you will see references to "the spirit of man", but it's simply talking about his life, his heart and mind."
1 CORINTHIANS 2:14
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.</SPAN>
This verse of scripture says nothing about certain Men not posessing a Spirit. This verse just simply says that people that have not received Christ as their Savior are still carnal minded and fleshly driven and therefore they are refered here as Natural beings.... certainly not Spiritual beings. This verse means that the unredeemed unrepented Soul on the street does not understand the things of God, but it does not mean that they don't have a Spirit.
This verse..among many others says "All Men" have a Spirit:
1 CORINTHIANS 2:11
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Where is the Spirit of Man?..."In Him"... (FACT)
YOU SAID: "Occasionally you will see references to "the spirit of man", but it's simply talking about his life, his heart and mind."
Once again this is your opinion...show me the verse that proves this is a "FACT" as I have done.
YOU SAID: "When a person acts on Rom 10:9, he receives the gift of holy spirit. Until this happens, he has no spirit (in a literal sense).
God creates us all individually and He creates us very simular to how He created Eve. Adam was creatd directly from the dust of the ground, Eve's body was formed from Adams Rib...Now when God finished forming Adam's body He breathed the breath of life into it and it became a living Soul. So it is only safe to conclude that He did that same thing when He finished forming Eve's body as well as Jerimiah"s....
JERIMIAH 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
If a Man is created in the likeness of God he must have a Spirit, because God is Spirit. Everyone has a Spirit, but not everyones Spirit has been made alive or "quickend" as the Word puts it. It does not indicate in scripture that a Spirit is "CREATED" inside of a Man at that point of Salvation, but it does indicate that the Spirit already in Man is "Awakened" or "Quickened" or "Brought to Life." You can't "Awaken" or "Arouse" something that's not already there. It's there already, it's just not interested in the things of God, it's only interested in the things of this world.