The Heresy of Perfectionism

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#1
The Heresy of Perfectionism

from R.C. Sproul Mar 14, 2011 Category: R.C. Sproul

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul Was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”
To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance.

The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#2
I agree. Even God is not a perfectionist. i.e. He does not demand that we be perfect. Perfectionsim makes us into idols.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3
we will not be perfect until we receive our perfected "glorified" bodies at the resurrection. Paul stated he was (present tense) a wretched man. If paul could not be perfect, i have no hope..lol
 
May 2, 2011
1,134
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#4
The Heresy of Perfectionism

from R.C. Sproul Mar 14, 2011 Category: R.C. Sproul

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the
heresy of perfectionism.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through
which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of
sinlessness.

The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and
inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of
victory, a life of sinless perfection. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism.
... I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance.

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism.


One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of
God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t
make errors in understanding Scripture.

The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog
I don't normally like R.C. Sproul. This is a well written article however about a serious
issue.

*
The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human
mind.


Pride, arrogance, haughtiness, comparisons (I am perfected, you are not -- THEREFORE)
I have seen it in Mormonism and even in The Mennonite-Amish System. I have seen it in
teachers (secular and religious, such as Paul). I have seen it in Vegans (I have never
eaten meat, you have, THEREFORE...). The very mindset becomes a dementia, we lose
PERSPECTIVE (the big picture, the RIGHT VIEW). It means attachment and clinging to
perfection. A mature, sound believer does not even 'attach' to the scripture, in the sense
that with a non or new believer it can lead to frustration or even anger when the other
person rejects, or does not understand the scriptural meaning -- Jesus simply taught --
let those who have ears to hear, then hear .. We can lose Understanding and EMPATHY
that drives a wedge between the word of God we want to represent.
R. C. Sproul said - I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual
arrogance.


* The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance
itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full
circle to the same error.


Not becoming attached to perfectionism is no excuse for laziness or sloppiness.

Antinomianism -- also a heresy

Antinomianism (a term coined by Martin Luther, from the Greek ἀντί, "against" + νόμος,
"law") is a belief or tendency in most religions that some therein consider existing laws as
no longer applicable to themselves. An antinomian theology does not necessarily imply
the embrace of ethical permissiveness; rather it usually implies emphasis on the inner
working of the Holy Spirit as the primary source of ethical guidance.

While there is wide agreement within Christianity that "antinomianism" is heresy, what
constitutes antinomianism is often in disagreement. The term "antinomian" emerged
soon after the Protestant Reformation (c.1517) and has historically been used mainly as
a pejorative against Christian thinkers or sects who carried their belief in justification by
faith further than was customary.

Reference (link): Antinomianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

* Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of
perfectionism.

A common reference for Mormons in distress is this:
Philippians 3
3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus,
and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath
whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of
the Hebrews;
as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law,
blameless.


7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of
Christ Jesus my Lord:
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them
but dung,
that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that
which is through the faith of Christ
, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be
otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.



* In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of
qualified perfectionism.


Mormons (mormon perfectionism web search - About 1,540,000 results (0.08 seconds) )
From: PERFECTION: A SOCIAL CRITICISM AND A THEOLOGICAL ALTERNATIVE

Sell:culture is the chief arm of Mormon perfectionism. I use this blanket term to cover a
wide variety of practices centering on the self-cultivating, monitoring, controlling,
introspecting, or disciplining, for instance. Such practices are incredibly diverse in
Mormondom, including goal-setting, journal-keeping, and introspection.

A survey of the Mormon landscape reveals a flourishing perfection industry, with all
manner of self improvement guides to spiritual and monetary enrichment. When an
ambitious Mormon invents a new way to improve the soul, he rushes out to consult with
California business execs or makes "motivational" tapes to be sold at appropriately
pumped up prices.

Reference (link): https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/059-20-24.pdf

* One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and
mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths.


Enough said!
 
F

FireOnTheAltar

Guest
#5
I'm clearly the target of Zone's latest rant seeing as I believe that we can overcome various forms of intentional and / or habitual sin in this life by letting go of our own selfish ambitions and wordly lusts and allowing God to both heal and sanctify our hearts. However, never once have I advocated Perfectionism nor have I ever claimed to be perfect.

I've seen a lot of false assumptions and wild accusations lately. Even a lot of name calling. It's clear to me that many either do not understand the dangers of allowing indwelling sin to fester or simply do not wish to give up their sin at all. It's sad because it shows that, despite possessing a vast wealth of knowledge concerning various matters, they use that knowledge in an attempt to Lord over others instead of applying that knowledge to their own lives.
 
Feb 17, 2010
3,620
27
0
#6
Boy do people belittle God and His Gospel! Who uttered these words in Matthew 5:48?Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Oh yes it is Jesus, and He is God, and that does not look like a suggestion or a request, it looks like a DEMAND! And who said this to Abraham?...Genesis 17:1... I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Oh that was God Himself. And who said this bout SAINTS. Now first let us see what a saint is in the BIBLE... it is a person that is moraly blameless and spiritually pure! Sinless, Most Holy! WOW A Saint is already without sin, but Ephesians 4:11 to 13 says this..And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Does the Bible teach perfection ? Well consider this.... If God says a person is walking RIGHTEOUSS, does it mean that that man is PERFECT! Yes, if you say no to this, then rather you stop reading right here. If God declares a person righteouss before GOD, that person is righteouss before ANYBODY! Now is there ever a man even before Jesus that was righteouss befor God? Yes read Luke 1:6. Both the man and his wife were righteous before God.
Does the Bible teach perfection for today? Well if we can be saved by the grace of God YES! EVEN HERE ON EARTH WE ARE BEING MADE PERFECT! Look what the Bible says here... 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and 24... And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Look who is the Faithful One that will sanctify us WHOLLY... OUR SPIRIT, OUR SOUL AND THIS FLESHLY BODY WILL BE SANCTIFIED BY GOD!!!!! Now if you still argue against God making PERFECT, then I will leave you ignorant! 1 Cor 14:37.
Jesus is a fair God, He will NEVER command us to be something we cannot be, and He said BE PERFECT AS GOD IS PERFECT! He may command that, becasue He knows what His Salvation will be able to achieve!
If God has to PRESERVE MY WHOLE BEING BLAMELESS, HE HAS TO MAKE IT BLAMELESS>>> HERE!!!!!
May the Will of Our Father in heaven be done in my life despite of what any man may say!
Lord Jesus, thank you that you asked Father to sanctify us in this Truth! Amen!
 
F

FireOnTheAltar

Guest
#7
By the way, Ramon started a nice thread on Jezebel, her characteristics and what it is she tried to accomplish in her time. Much of which can be seen going on here on these forums as we speak.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#8
Boy do people belittle God and His Gospel! Who uttered these words in Matthew 5:48?Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Oh yes it is Jesus, and He is God, and that does not look like a suggestion or a request, it looks like a DEMAND! And who said this to Abraham?...Genesis 17:1...I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Oh that was God Himself. And who said this bout SAINTS. Now first let us see what a saint is in the BIBLE... it is a person that is moraly blameless and spiritually pure! Sinless, Most Holy! WOW A Saint is already without sin, but Ephesians 4:11 to 13 says this..And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Does the Bible teach perfection ? Well consider this.... If God says a person is walking RIGHTEOUSS, does it mean that that man is PERFECT! Yes, if you say no to this, then rather you stop reading right here. If God declares a person righteouss before GOD, that person is righteouss before ANYBODY! Now is there ever a man even before Jesus that was righteouss befor God? Yes read Luke 1:6. Both the man and his wife were righteous before God.
Does the Bible teach perfection for today? Well if we can be saved by the grace of God YES! EVEN HERE ON EARTH WE ARE BEING MADE PERFECT! Look what the Bible says here... 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and 24... And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Look who is the Faithful One that will sanctify us WHOLLY... OUR SPIRIT, OUR SOUL AND THIS FLESHLY BODY WILL BE SANCTIFIED BY GOD!!!!! Now if you still argue against God making PERFECT, then I will leave you ignorant! 1 Cor 14:37.
Jesus is a fair God, He will NEVER command us to be something we cannot be, and He said BE PERFECT AS GOD IS PERFECT! He may command that, becasue He knows what His Salvation will be able to achieve!
If God has to PRESERVE MY WHOLE BEING BLAMELESS, HE HAS TO MAKE IT BLAMELESS>>> HERE!!!!!
May the Will of Our Father in heaven be done in my life despite of what any man may say!
Lord Jesus, thank you that you asked Father to sanctify us in this Truth! Amen!
The word "perfect" in matt 28 means to be mature, or a grown man. It does not mean sinless. This is the problem with the english text. people see a word and assume it means what the english word means when many times it does not.

perfect would be sinless. John tells us in his epistle than if we or anyone else says we are without sin (sinless) we decieve ourselves and truth is not in us.

so if you think you are or can be sinless you need to speak with John. for he tells you you have been deceived.
 
May 2, 2011
1,134
8
0
#9
I'm clearly the target of Zone's latest rant seeing as I believe that we can overcome various forms of intentional and / or habitual sin in this life by letting go of our own selfish ambitions and wordly lusts and allowing God to both heal and sanctify our hearts. However, never once have I advocated Perfectionism nor have I ever claimed to be perfect.

I've seen a lot of false assumptions and wild accusations lately. Even a lot of name calling. It's clear to me that many either do not understand the dangers of allowing indwelling sin to fester or simply do not wish to give up their sin at all. It's sad because it shows that, despite possessing a vast wealth of knowledge concerning various matters, they use that knowledge in an attempt to Lord over others instead of applying that knowledge to their own lives.

Not sure that anyone is a target. REPENTANCE speaks to all of us, and to anyone with
enough sensitivity to the Spirit, to be quickened by a call to repentance. I prefer to see
this issue as one of extremes AND more importantly, any Pride, Haughtiness or even
Arrogance that often comes with it. Comparisons between persons rather than a loving
call to repentance. Warnings against LEGALISM and other such extremes are how I take
the article's essence.


As mentioned earlier, I often see R. C. Sproul with a hidden agenda, but accept this article
on it's face for a warning against such things as I listed above. You do well in coming to
enlightenment for a need to repent. Press on!
 
T

Tobby17

Guest
#10
God bless you Fire On The Altar and Cobus :)..

Now eternally grateful, so Perfect was misunderstood right?. Maybe you just don't want to understand the word Perfect as it was meant to mean in the bible because you're too Lazy to achieve it, or you are Blinded by the lie that we can not live a Perfect, Sinless Life.

And zone if you bring up this thread a million times, I will be against you a million times :p..( Doesn't mean we are not still buddies and i still have a lot of respect for you)..

Now to the point, Jesus Christ is supposed to be our perfect example right?. The bible says Jesus was tempted in all ways just like we are but yet he was without sin.

What does the word Christian mean?. Christian= Christ Like.. So if we as Christians are supposed to be Christ Like, and Christ (Jesus) was tempted like us and never sinned, then we can do the same.. You might argue that Jesus was God, but the point is he was a man on earth just like everyone else and was even tempted by the Devil!

Moreover 1Peter1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#11
one preacher said repentence is not just saying done did that,cuz u done did that,,ur still growing in repentence..
now all our sins are forgiven wen we repent but as a beleiver does our heart get convicted when we see things that we are doing is not lining up with God.Our main goal is to gloryfy God and none other..truth was a person b4 we ripped it and made into our prideful doctorine and if anyone doesnt agree wid it we harrass them and see them as a false prophet.Guys we need to grow up and not argue like 4 years old kids claiming urself to right..
is our knees bent b4 God more than we write blogs.. is our heart weeping for souls more than we see wrong in other ppl,i dont care what ur denomination is if u say u love God and he has done a supernatural work in ur heart,lets not just write abt it,tak abt it and be the real thing..
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#12
I'm clearly the target of Zone's latest rant .
huh?
there are at least a dozen or more on here falling into the same trap. somebody's teaching them that.
why on earth do you feel 'targeted'?

you're not unique.

you believe and teach error that hurts yourself and others: so do we love any of them or others if we don't say anything?

if we give a big AMEN to that?

but when anyone tries to say anything, "oh no! YOU'RE PROMOTING SIN!" you don't look at what we are saying. you "put us on ignore" - so then what do we do?

some might give you an amen, some may say nothing, others may be gentle with you over 50 years.
i like to-the-point, okay? your spiritual condition is not the only consideration here (particularly if you won't listen).

zone

~

i saw this some years back about the Holiness movement and the Sceond baptism: it made me look into what it was.

You're so vain
You probably think this Psalm is about you
You're so vain (you're so vain)
I'll bet you think this Psalm is about you
Don't you, don't you, aw
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
God bless you Fire On The Altar and Cobus :)..

Now eternally grateful, so Perfect was misunderstood right?. Maybe you just don't want to understand the word Perfect as it was meant to mean in the bible because you're too Lazy to achieve it, or you are Blinded by the lie that we can not live a Perfect, Sinless Life.
lol.. Me afraid of what? I am not afraid. I just refuse to let pride take a ahold of me and think I could ever be sinless. I Also read scripture as it was written. not as it was translated by men in the english language. The greek word Teleios can mean "full grown, an adult man, mature, and full of age. There was just one perfect man on this earth. and that man was Christ. Paul did not even consider himself perfect He called himself a wretched man . Peter was shown to have sinned a few times after he was made an apostle. john said if we claim to be sinnless we have decieved ourselves. and there is no truth in us. . If you think you can be more holy than these men because you want to mistranslate a passage of scripture. feel free. As for me, I will never think I have made it. And keep striving to get better.



Moreover 1Peter1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy[/quote]
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#14
God bless you Fire On The Altar and Cobus :)..
follow them into error then Tobby. many never come back from it. they end up in CULTS.

Now eternally grateful, so Perfect was misunderstood right?. Maybe you just don't want to understand the word Perfect as it was meant to mean in the bible because you're too Lazy to achieve it, or you are Blinded by the lie that we can not live a Perfect, Sinless Life.
EG is student of the Greek texts Tobby. are you?

And zone if you bring up this thread a million times, I will be against you a million times :p..( Doesn't mean we are not still buddies and i still have a lot of respect for you)..
ok....buddies sounds great.
you can be against me a trillion times if you want to.

this is error (i'll be nice and let Sproul and any other sound theologican you care to look at call it HERESY if you don't believe the Holy Spirit testifying in you).

yesterday you tried to justify your own sin by giving me a cute series of analogies about sports and comedy - does that make you any less a sinner? NO.

Now to the point, Jesus Christ is supposed to be our perfect example right?. The bible says Jesus was tempted in all ways just like we are but yet he was without sin.

What does the word Christian mean?. Christian= Christ Like.. So if we as Christians are supposed to be Christ Like, and Christ (Jesus) was tempted like us and never sinned, then we can do the same..
oh my...........*face palm*

You might argue that Jesus was God, but the point is he was a man on earth just like everyone else and was even tempted by the Devil!
see where this he**** leads?

downgrading Christ, downgrading the Law and exhalting man.

love you Tobby.
zone
 
Jul 3, 2011
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#15
Boy do people belittle God and His Gospel! Who uttered these words in Matthew 5:48?Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Oh yes it is Jesus, and He is God, and that does not look like a suggestion or a request, it looks like a DEMAND!
So true Cobus, it is so sad that people reject God's word because they love their sin too much to truly follow Jesus
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#16
so if you think you are or can be sinless you need to speak with John. for he tells you you have been deceived.
deceived, and lying, and with NO TRUTH in them!

isn't that what john said?
is this not a GRAVE spiritual condition? to THINK one is saved and there's NO TRUTH in them?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#17
Boy do people belittle God and His Gospel!
yes...do they ever.

The Heresy of Perfectionism

from R.C. Sproul Mar 14, 2011 Category: R.C. Sproul

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions.

To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.
The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#18
i might be rong and i will let u guys fight over it haha..
when i see a perfection i see a Perfect God having grace and mercy on a worthless man made of flesh and thru that grace and mercy he calls us lil turds ur forgiven thru faith in him.
We all sin being honest i dont think i have yet learned to love God wid all ma heart mind and soul yet with lil love i have for him i guess he honours it and i pray he will let ma love grow as i grow in him cuz i know one day we will see him, ma filthy rags of unrightousness would fall and he would give me a robe that is unspotted,i really long for that day,and as for now am trying to be faithful in lil what i have and its hard really hard
 
T

Tobby17

Guest
#20
lol.. Me afraid of what? I am not afraid. I just refuse to let pride take a ahold of me and think I could ever be sinless. I Also read scripture as it was written. not as it was translated by men in the english language. The greek word Teleios can mean "full grown, an adult man, mature, and full of age. There was just one perfect man on this earth. and that man was Christ. Paul did not even consider himself perfect He called himself a wretched man . Peter was shown to have sinned a few times after he was made an apostle. john said if we claim to be sinnless we have decieved ourselves. and there is no truth in us. . If you think you can be more holy than these men because you want to mistranslate a passage of scripture. feel free. As for me, I will never think I have made it. And keep striving to get better.



Moreover 1Peter1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy
[/QUOTE]

Ok. Paul called himself *wretched* because he was trying to be humble. Living a sinless life doesn't make you automatically Proud!. Except ofcourse you are trying to show it off. And even after you claim to live a sinless life, you have to keep struggling for higher places, because the battle against the flesh is one you keep fighting till the day you die. The fact that somebody now lives sinless doesn't make him Perfect!.

Jesus Christ was sinless, he was a man like me and you on earth!, he was tempted like me and you (and yet without sin). he is the example we are supposed to follow as believers!. So We Can Be Sinless Like Him.....
IT IS DIFFICULT NOT IMPOSSIBLE.. (By the way Jesus Christ been sinless didn't make him Proud)

Pleas about Johns' word, i think you need to read the remaining part of that scripture to understand what he meant. And stop making that part of the scripture sound like what it isn't :)