The Heresy of Perfectionism

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Jan 26, 2009
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#41
AMEN!
of course we do not want to sin...who better to explain the conflict to us than PAUL?
this is one reason we know the Bible is true - it does not gloss over what we are.
but in Christ we are so grateful and changing, we are NEW!
and yes....even when no one is looking. same as when people ARE looking....what lost sinner will ever believe they can be perfect?
where is the Great Exchange? where is the Wisdom of God in His imputation of Christ's Righteousness?
just who are we exhalting?
thank you sam.
love zone.

u know wat in Nepal hindus sacrifice goats and buffalos for their sins lyk all the time aroudn oct/nov its a bloody month its yucky whole of nepal bleeds cuz of so much of animal sacrifice to please their gods "idols".I serve a better God who who not only forgives but changes heart and works with us in knowing him its amaizing
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#42
Yes, this is what separates us from the holiness group. They think they can be perfect. and are blinded to the sins they have (like the pharisees who even Jesus stated were righteous according to the law) The rest of us, realise we can not be perfect. Praise God and have a gratitude for what he has done for us. And are on th elook out for areas in which we are week and fail. Striving always to grow in Christ.

Well i dont know wat group i belong tocuz i belong to Jesus, b4 coming to australia i dint even know denomination existed
but i kinda now like old school preachers than new liek tozer reidhead ravenhill
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#44
u know wat in Nepal hindus sacrifice goats and buffalos for their sins lyk all the time aroudn oct/nov its a bloody month its yucky whole of nepal bleeds cuz of so much of animal sacrifice to please their gods "idols".I serve a better God who who not only forgives but changes heart and works with us in knowing him its amaizing
wow! i didn't know that about nepal sam.

i was studying the Aztecs recently....just chilling what they did.
i suppose the only reason the whole planet isn't like that is because of Jesus.
God Bless you for your faithfulness and service sam.
zone
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#45
wow! i didn't know that about nepal sam.

i was studying the Aztecs recently....just chilling what they did.
i suppose the only reason the whole planet isn't like that is because of Jesus.
God Bless you for your faithfulness and service sam.
zone

well as a kid id go to watch animals being slaughtered it was fun..but its not just teh sacrifice they drink blood,sprinkle blood on home their cars or bikes for protection and eat everything even intestines and stuff of course cooked! poor ppl offer chickens or ducks 99.3% is hindus and buddist is weird in nepal compared to other countries cuz its really mixed up wid hinduism in nepal..haha i would be so upset cuz at 3 am ppl go to their temples for prayers and their worship hah they havea terrible voice and sing on speakers and it aint a good rythm plus bells go off lyk crazy..
ma parents go to villages and its funny how many havent even heard of the name Jesus its just crazy,and missionaries claim they have reached all tirebes no they havent they are liers..
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#47
Jesus Christ was sinless, he was a man like me and you on earth!, he was tempted like me and you (and yet without sin).
A lot of people think that if a temptation goes into your head you have sin, but that's not true. Jesus was tempted yet He was sinless. Therefore being tempted is not a sin but agree and meditating on those thoughts instead of rejecting them leads people to sinful words and actions.

:) your words remind me of these scriptures :)

Hebrews 4:14-16
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
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#48
The Heresy of Perfectionism

from R.C. Sproul Mar 14, 2011 Category: R.C. Sproul

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul Was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”
To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance.

The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog
This post hits alot of areas and reveals alot of truth about our relationship in Christ and not being perfected in the flesh but being perfected in the love of God.

If I sin and I respond to grace and confess my sin by faith and let God restore me, that's being perfected in love. I couldn't do that with confidence when I was first saved but now I can. When I sinned, I was afraid that God might condemn me, but when I trusted Him and His love for me, the fear was cast out and I was perfected in love. Perfect love (or being perfected in love) cast out all fear.

Think of this...

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

'Keepeth', means to acknowledge and guard. When we acknowledge and guard our hearts with the word, in us the love of God is perfected and from that we know and perceive that we are in Him. To be a doer of the word we must first have a knowledge of it and guard our hearts with it, and when we do that, the word will produce faith to walk in and live by without striving in the flesh. We become a doer of the word when God's plan puts us in a situation or circumstance that our flesh has no answer or solution for. So we humble ourselves under the hand of God to get the wisdom of His grace for the situation (1Pt 5:5,6, Jm 4:6). Whatever that wisdom is must come from above (Jm 3:17) and must be applied by faith without rationalizing it through the mind of the flesh Rom (8:5, Eph 2:3).

This is how we become perfected and matured in the love of God and grow more and more in knowledge and judgment of that love (1Cor 1:10, Phil 1:9). Sin is not the issue, but keeping the word and being perfected in the love of God is the issue. Being perfected is growing in grace and knowledge of a person, Christ, who is perfect. We have been placed and hid with Christ in God (Eph 3:9, Col 3:3) and you can't get any more perfection then that. All we have to do is grow in that hidden perfect place with Christ in God to be perfected in love in our experience as we grow up in Him (Eph 4:5,16).

Col 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


Just a thought to consider: Perhaps the church at Ephesus in the Revelation to John had left their first love when they stopped being perfected in the love of God and they needed to stop going in that direction and repent and go back to that first love of being perfected or God would have no choice but to remove their candlestick (lampstand). The candlestick had a container that held pure oil of beaten olives, with a pair of tongs and a hot coal from off the altar to light it. The priest would take a hot burning coal from off the altar in the snuff dish and hold it with the tongs over the oil and blow on it until it was glowing with a slow burning fire.

Perhaps to remove the candlestick or lampstand, God would take away the fire of His love that was to continually burn in their hearts and motivate them to do the work of being perfected in that love. I don't know what those ramifications would be if that had happened, but in all likelihood, the testimony of Christ would be extinguished because their light would go out.
 
Jan 26, 2009
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#49
A lot of people think that if a temptation goes into your head you have sin, but that's not true. Jesus was tempted yet He was sinless. Therefore being tempted is not a sin but agree and meditating on those thoughts instead of rejecting them leads people to sinful words and actions.

:) your words remind me of these scriptures :)



Hebrews 4:14-16
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

amen ananda its wen we yeild to it is a sin
 
N

Nalu

Guest
#50
The Heresy of Perfectionism

from R.C. Sproul Mar 14, 2011 Category: R.C. Sproul

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul Was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”
To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance.

The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog
I agree, well said.

We will always have the modern day pharisee, self righteous and wise in their own opinion dwelling among us.
During Jesus time the pharisee was common and part of the scenery, they are alive and well today.

When people delve to deeply into this false teaching, their conscience becomes seared and they are given over to a reprobate mind.
They become lovers of themselves and have no need for God because they worship themselves.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#51
John 8
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
 
F

FireOnTheAltar

Guest
#52
amen ananda its wen we yeild to it is a sin
Exactly. Temptation in and of itself is not a sin, it's the lure of the Devil enticing us to sin. However, we have no one to blame but ourselves when we give in to the temptation because it is our own flesh which desires to sin.

However, 1 Cor 10:13 clearly states that, when we are tempted, God is faithful to create an escape. Now keep in mind, this escape can not mean forgiveness for sin seeing as temptation is not a sin. So with that said, just what is this verse talking about?
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#53
EG wrote this...
The word "perfect" in matt 28 means to be mature, or a grown man. It does not mean sinless. This is the problem with the english text. people see a word and assume it means what the english word means when many times it does not.

perfect would be sinless. John tells us in his epistle than if we or anyone else says we are without sin (sinless) we decieve ourselves and truth is not in us.

so if you think you are or can be sinless you need to speak with John. for he tells you you have been deceived.

So now we are in 1 John 1. Ok let us look at the verse and the two following then please see the process to perfection and sinlessness in that SAME verses you quoted by John....
This is how people twist the Truth, bu not considering ALL the Bible! And is God commanded us to be perfect in Matthew 5:48, then He will NEVER accept excuses for us not being perfect. HE DID ALL HE COULD TO GET YOU PERFECT! If you do not want it fine, fortunately nobody has to answer for your way of reasoning but yourself!
1 john 1: 8.9 and 10. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Ok look at the Gospel of God in this three vesres! verse 8. I am a sinner and I have sin...... Jesus came to SAVE sinners and I believe this. So now Father calls me to be saint. I am not saint I am sinner.... Verse 8 finished!!!

Now verse 9. Becasue God called me, he gave me to Jesus so that i can REPENT! And the first step of repentance is already done. God called me and i know I have sin! BUT... That is why i am now given to Jesus! Jesus is WORKING ON ME! And I CONFESS ALL MY SIN, Jesus is faithful and just, and He frogive me my sin! He also cleanse me FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS!!!! This is FROM all unrighteousness, from ALL SIN AND EVIL, EVEN THE THOUGHTS. Jesus cleans me and SEPERATES me FROM ALL EVIL! That is HIS JOB! And He does it PERFECTLY! Now I am so far removed from sin that I CANNOT SIN (1 John 3:9) Becasue JESUS made me a MATURE MAN IN HIM!Verse 9 finished!

Now verse 10. The people that Jesus has seperated from evil, As far as the east is from the west He says, they are sinless, and peoplemight ask... HAVE YOU EVER SINNED BECASUE I NEVER SEE YOU SIN?... Then look.... IF THEY SAY THEY HAVE NOT SINNED>>>> Past tence! Nope they will say ...Oh I have sinned but Jesus is just and faithful, HE CLEANSED ME FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!

Sinless perfection is not my idea, it is God's will. Jesus and Paul and any preacher in the history, that EVER preached Truth, even the false preachers preach that "Christians" do not want to sin, well then STOP SINNING! It is a choice, not a force or power! Did Jesus not teach us to pray.... "Father lead me not into temptation but deliver me from evil?" Now! Believe that Father will do this for you, and SEE how perfect He does this.... God says that if you are mature in Him, then your life is hid IN HIM WITH CHRIST! AND IN HIM IS NO SIN. When you are in Christ Jesus you cannot sin becasue IN HIM IS NO SIN!

Look at this picture.... You are in Christ Jesus and He is in you! Where is sin in this picture? There is none, becasue BEFORE HE PLACED YOU IN HIM HE CLEANSED YOU FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!
Lord Jesus, no matter how many times these people speaks evil of YOUR WORK, please forgive them they know not what they do, and let no curse they speak out in their lack of knowledge be effective on your SAINTS.AMEN!
I am busy to put an essay together to share with you what Paul preached and what was the lie he talks about... Romans 3:7....For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Paul says if his lie makes God's Truth more abounded, why do we still judge him as a sinner? What was Paul's lie? This we will do in the essay! If you think you know what was his lie post it, if you do not then I will tell you what i think the lie is and you reproof me from God's Word.
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#54
I am busy to put an essay together to share with you what Paul preached and what was the lie he talks about... Romans 3:7....For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Paul says if his lie makes God's Truth more abounded, why do we still judge him as a sinner? What was Paul's lie? This we will do in the essay! If you think you know what was his lie post it, if you do not then I will tell you what i think the lie is and you reproof me from God's Word.

Paul Never lied.

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Galatians 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

the JEWS(and maybe also the romans/greeks) thought HIM to be a liar... But he never lied. CHRIST and The Holy spirit are witness to it.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#55
Exactly. Temptation in and of itself is not a sin, it's the lure of the Devil enticing us to sin. However, we have no one to blame but ourselves when we give in to the temptation because it is our own flesh which desires to sin.

However, 1 Cor 10:13 clearly states that, when we are tempted, God is faithful to create an escape. Now keep in mind, this escape can not mean forgiveness for sin seeing as temptation is not a sin. So with that said, just what is this verse talking about?
its says that God will keep us from sinning or give us a way to resist temptation. but I found it interesting that God tells us not to complain too:

1 Cor 10

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”[a] 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#56
Now I want to clarify first, to avoid debate, :) that we are to avoid sin.
But if there is anything learned from Jesus, the only perfect is Jesus.
Jesus calls us to set flesh, self , aside, from what Ive learned this means both good and bad.
We are not to live under condemnation, or self glory of perfection.
We are to live in Jesus.
Letting His spirit bring all that is Gods will in each of us.
Why else grace? :) If we be perfect, there would be no need for grace.
I liked this post zone, too often we forget, that anything good in us, is given and brought in Jesus.

God bless.
pickles
 
Jan 14, 2010
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#57
i dont trust anything Sproul says... Sproul is nothing more than a Calvinist.

holiness is definitely something that is taught within Christianity... even the early church pushed for holiness
and the only ones i see that are resorting to name calling and insulting are those who think man has no responsibility in salvation
 
Last edited:
Feb 17, 2010
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#58
Deadflesh WELL DONE!!! Paul never lied!Then why would he mention a lie of his? Or was it a lie? Let us see! Paul is preaching to people that are CALLED TO BE SAINTS! People like me! I am not even a saint yet, but hopefully God will also have grace on me and give me saintship and obedience to the faith! Faith is good and it can ONLY come from God. Now Paul says the things that he wants to do he does not and the things he does not want to do those he do! Is this true, or is Paul associating and having compassion with people that has not learned to endure yet? People like me? Paul was able like Jesus to talk to every person on his own level. And that is said in the milk and steak scripture! So when Paul preach to people on milk he had to come down in depth of the Word a bit. We all start by WANTING to do good but then sin, but that is not the end of the sermon Paul gave, altough MANY people get stuck there becasue of lost preachers! False teachers... Look how the sermon continues in Romans 7 and onwards... Paul says... Romans 7:24... OH wretched man that I am... WHO SHALL DELIVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH!!!!! Now who CAN AND WILL DELIVER YOU FROM ALL EVIL? If the flesh is evil, then Jesus was evil becasue He was also in the flesh! Nope the flesh and sin is NOT stronger than the Spirit of God! Now look how Romans 8 starts..... This is where saints end up! Called to be saints, is not saints yet they need to trust God for salvation from the "walk after the flesh"!
Romans 8 the whole chapter. It is all about HOW we get INTO the Spirit and how this once sinful flesh is QUICKENED!
People do not make this quickened flesh anything less than the same obedience Jesus showed! Then you make God less than what He is. Jesus is the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE in ALL quickened flesh! And it is the Spirit of GOD that quicken all flesh HE WANTS TOO!
How does God select the flesh HE WANTS TOO QUICKEN... The ones that ask Him for IT and believe they will get IT!
If you live after the flesh ye shall die! But if you lay down your fleshly wants, ye shall LIVE IN HIM! Plain and simple. As ong as i live in this flesh Jesus is not here YET! Some person think we get our glorification when Jesus will come for us... He is right.... But Jesus can come for me RIGHT NOW! Jesus can take my spirit to God right NOW! And then He can fill me with HIS SPIRIT! Then who lives in me? Who is in control of my flesh? Me or Jesus? If I am FILLED with Holy Spirit, who am I then? If I am filled with Holy Spirit, FILLED where am I? I cannot be filled with Holy Spirit if I am ALSO in me. If a vessel is filled with oil there is NO WATER in the vessel. If a vessel is filled with Water there is NO oil in the vessel. Simple! If I am filled with Holy Spirit I am FILLED with Holy Spirit, and there is no Cobus spirit there! Where is the Cobus spirit.... Like the Bible says... I am dead.... Colossians 3:3... For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
The only life I have now is NOT IN ME ANYMORE! GET THIS WISE ONES!!!! YOU ARE DEAD!!!!! YOU DIED FOR CHRIST!!! AND NOW YOUR LIFE IS HID WITH JESUS IN GOD!!!! Do you see that if God does not fill this body with a spirit then this soul and body will not breathe! If I am a quickened person, then it is the Spirit of God that is in me!!! And then it is God that type this! I have died, and dead people do not type letters or messages, but Jesus does, that is how we got a Bible! The Holy Spirit is BOTH JESUS AND FATHER! And Jesus said.... John 14:23... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Now!!! Jesus and Father in me and I in them, Perfectly ONE! That is what Jesus prayed for in John 17. That Father will make us ONE with Him. And again to say a person is ONE with God and still sin, is just crazy! God CANNOT sin and neither can ANY ONE IN HIM!
Paul could not sin becasue only Jesus lived in him. And Paul did not lie, he had compassion with the Romans! The CALLED TO BE SAINTS. The other Saints in the church of Hebrews, it is mentioned... HOLY BRETHREN, partakers of the heavenly calling.... HEAVENLY CALLING... From GOD! We are not called to be partakers of sin and this world.. we are called to be partakers of HEAVEN and PERFECTION!
God calls us all to be IN CHRIST JESUS! In Jesus is no sin! Not in sin!
This is ok, i just hope you will enjoy the FREEDOM Jesus offers... It even makes us free from our flesh! Jesus said if He makes free we are free indeed! I believe Him!
 
N

Necto

Guest
#59
Of course we do not see in himself and those around us Christians perfection. However, there are processes of growth. In the Epistle to the Hebrews refers to the righteous who have achieved perfection. Some of us will reach and who do not. It's obvious now! Paul said of himself that he wants to achieve. So you can achieve. It is clear that there will be winners and losers!
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#60
It is true that God wants us to be perfect

Matthew 5:48
(48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But it is Christ who gives us His perfect character

Isaiah 61:10
(10) I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.


We are not only saved by Christ death we are also saved by His life, He lived a perfect life for us which is transferred to us when we give our life to Him.

Romans 5:10
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Corinthians 5:21
(21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Jesus took our sin and punishment and in exchange gave us His perfect righteousness.

1 John 1:9
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


When we confess and surrender to Him He cleanses us even though we may not feel it , but we need to have faith in His word.

Luke 7:50
(50) And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

After we have surrendered to Him which is a daily matter we become servants of righteousness

Romans 6:16-18
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
(18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


The only way to be perfect is to be given His righteousness. The only way to overcome is by surrender to Him.