3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[Melach]

We need to be saved from our sins. Nothing is forgiven until we believe.

So the Atonement is Only for Believers. Only Believers are saved from their sin.


That wasn't so hard.

yes thats what im saying. do u agree with that? why are we arguing if thats case? i love you brother

 

[Whispered]

Ok. I'll slow this WAY down for you.

People need to be saved from their sins. That's what they need to be saved from.


If the Atonement is for the whole world then ALL the worlds sins have been atoned for and they no longer need Salvation.

Their sins are gone. They are atoned. Because the Sacrifice of the Atonement has already occurred.

Do you see?


But if the Atonement is only for people who believe in Christ, then only believers are Saved. Which is ACTUALLY what the bible says.

 

[Whispered]

Snide innuendo? Are you serious? What did I say that was snide or innuendo?


Its kind of funny. You say "Here is a brick building".

Its obvious its a brick building. Its a statement of fact.

But then someone else says "that's not a brick building". "It has windows in it".

And you say "well brick buildings have windows in them, silly".

And then "Well you don't have to get mean with your sarcasm and snide innuendos"

What??? Really??? I haven't even started the sarcasm yet.

 

[posthuman]

You could have placed another Scripture from Hebrews to maintain the correct balance (Heb 2:9): But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Just ignore the Arminians. What we see here are two different contexts. In chapter 9 Paul is speaking about Christians "those who eagerly wait for Him". These are the "many". But in chapter 2, which is dealing with all mankind, Christ tasted death "for every man". Which means every person, not just males. This takes us right back to verse 6 in the same chapter: But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man [mankind], that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

When we take these two verses and harmonize them, we see that while Christ died for the sins of the whole world, not all are saved, but many are saved, and those are the ones who eagerly wait for Him.

so putting those two passages from Hebrews together, He tasted death for every man but did not bear the sins of all?
is that incompatible with His atonement being sufficient for all but not applied to all?
is there something about this that makes the idea that His atonement is functionally limited to those it actually effectually saves impossible to reconcile with His crucifixion?

 

[posthuman]

Where there is no law there is not sin.

that's not true.

We were told in scripture without the law there is no sin.

um, no we're not:

The Book of Romans chapter 5 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person's account when there is no law.

you have said it.
sin was in the world before the law

that statement is incompatible with "there was no sin without the law."
it literally says exactly the opposite of how you interpreted it.
you went on:

Sin was in the world before the Law came. But no record of sin was kept, because there was no Law.

there it is in again:
sin was in the world before the law came

that is exactly contradictory to "there was no sin before the law came"

you said it third time, yourself:

Sin was in the world before the Law came. But no record of sin was kept, because there was no Law. There was sin in the world before the Law was given; but where there is no law, no account is kept of sins.

there was sin in the world before the law was given.
totally not 'there was no sin before the law'

 

[posthuman]

Hebrews 9 verse 28 comports with the prophecy in the Book of Isaiah chapter 53 and verse 12 , "Therefore I will assign him a share with the great,he will divide the spoil with the mighty,for having exposed himself to death and being counted among the sinners, while actually bearing the sin of many and interceding for the offenders.”

Jesus death on the cross was the last sacrifice for the sins of the world. There upon that sin altar He bore the sins of the world upon himself.

did He bear the sins of many or bear the sins of the whole world?
am i reading this right, scripture says "many" and you say "the whole world" ?

From Hebrews 2:9 + 19:28 ((thanks for pointing out the other one @Nehemiah6)) it looks like scripture is saying He died for the whole world but only bore the sins of 'many' - who are these many? all people? those whom He saves only or also those whom He does not? does He bear the sins of some who He does not also sanctify?

 

[Whispered]

that's not true.

Romans 4:15 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


Romans 5:12-14 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned- 13To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

 

[posthuman]

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account

to be sure sin existed before the law. even existing in the world.
in the world, just looked over: not attributed.

The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.
(Romans 5:20)

Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions
(Galatians 3:19)
​

added because of transgression.
cause and effect:

cause: sin
effect: law

cause: law
effect: sin be made all the more sinful


the cause precedes the effect.
sin was in the world before the law.

for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(Romans 3:20)
​

by the law is the knowledge of sin.
not, 'by the law is sin'

 

[Whispered]

did He bear the sins of many or bear the sins of the whole world?
am i reading this right, scripture says "many" and you say "the whole world" ?

From Hebrews 2:9 + 19:28 ((thanks for pointing out the other one @Nehemiah6)) it looks like scripture is saying He died for the whole world but only bore the sins of 'many' - who are these many? all people? those whom He saves only or also those whom He does not? does He bear the sins of some who He does not also sanctify?

Jesus bore the sins of the whole world on the cross that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish in their sins but shall have immortal life.
The scripture says many and whole world.

The Book of John chapter 1 verse 29

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!​

 

[Whispered]

that's not true.



um, no we're not:



you have said it.
sin was in the world before the law

that statement is incompatible with "there was no sin without the law."
it literally says exactly the opposite of how you interpreted it.
you went on:



there it is in again:
sin was in the world before the law came

that is exactly contradictory to "there was no sin before the law came"

you said it third time, yourself:



there was sin in the world before the law was given.
totally not 'there was no sin before the law'

Let us be clear so that readers do not believe you are correct when you charge me with saying what you claim.
The Saint Apostle Paul said it.

 

[posthuman]

Let us be clear so that readers do not believe you are correct when you charge me with saying what you claim.
The Saint Apostle Paul said it.

yes.
he said: to be sure sin was in the world before the law

it is incorrect to say "there was no sin before the law"
it is incorrect to say "without the law there is no sin"

i'm not sure you comprehend what i'm saying?

the law was added
the world existed before the law.
sin existed before the law.
sin existed in the world before the law.

 

[Whispered]

yes.
he said: to be sure sin was in the world before the law

it is incorrect to say "there was no sin before the law"
it is incorrect to say "without the law there is no sin"

i'm not sure you comprehend what i'm saying?

the law was added
the world existed before the law.
sin existed before the law.
sin existed in the world before the law.

"sin is not counted where there is no law.” (Romans 5:13)

You are incorrect. Sin did not exist before the law. As we're informed in Genesis. God's law was created there when He told Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Thou shalt not.... That was God's first law in the paradise garden where there was no sin.

Eve did eat of the forbidden tree. And then she induced Adam to eat of that same apple from whence she had eaten. And we are told, due to that, that by one man sin entered the world , see the Book of Romans chapter 5, that God had created prior and after all was created He looked upon it and called it good.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I do not know why anything in the Book of Matthew 7 would lead you to ask such a question as it is not implied by me in the least that eternal salvation is by works.

A lot of the time when you assume what someone is thinking, you are assuming wrongly, which may be the case my case in this instance. I was assuming that you were thinking that "the kingdom of heaven" in verse 21 was referring to eternal heaven. In my thinking it means the church that Jesus set up when he was on earth, which is his kingdom, that he is king of, also the husband of. If you interpret it as eternal heaven it will not harmonize with other scriptures. According to the scriptures that teach church discipline some that will be in eternal heaven will not be allowed within the church. Doing the will of God is not the cause of our eternal salvation, but a product of already being an heir of eternal life.

 

[posthuman]

*sigh*

Sin did not exist before the law.

For sin was in the world before the law was given ​

(Romans 5:13) ​

​

how does this not click for you yet?

sin existed long before the law.

the Bible does not say "with the law came the existence of sin"
it says with the law came the knowledge of sin

the Bible does not say "without the law sin does not exist"
it says without the law sin is not accounted

 

[posthuman]

As we're informed in Genesis. God's law was created there when He told Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Thou shalt not.... That was God's first law in the paradise garden where there was no sin.

hmm you have a completely different definition of "the law" than what the NT has.
maybe that's the issue: you don't comprehend "sin was in the world before the law" because you don't think there has ever been a world before the law?

the law was added​

(Galatians 3:19)​

the law was not given until 430 years after Abraham. Galatians 3:17.


but when did Satan first sin?
how?
what sin?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Psalm 53
Overview
The book of Psalms is a collection of 150 ancient Hebrew songs and prayers. As the NIV Quest Study Bible says, psalms give voice to personal feelings; they are poetry, not doctrinal essays. The psalmists frequently were interested in how something felt more than what it meant. Think of the psalms as entries in a diary; they reflect people’s most intimate encounters with God. Watch for figures of speech, exaggerations, and repetitions. Poetic language requires that you read with your heart as well as your mind. The NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible says the various psalms help us see that God responds to us in our emotional highs and lows.


Grouping
Writings (Hebrew); Poetic (Protestant); Wisdom (Catholic); Poetic and Didactic (Orthodox)

Author
David, Asaph, the Sons of Korah, Solomon, Heman, Ethan, Moses, and unknown authors.

Timeline
Between the time of Moses (probably about 1440 BC) and the time following the Babylonian exile (after 538 BC).

Genre
Poetry

Original Language
Hebrew

Audience
God’s people.

Have you ever heard of the simplicity of Christ? Psalms 53:2 is a very short statement and plainly says what it means. I think you may be trying too hard to read, by your own intelligence, with your heart as well as your mind. Jesus tells us if we want to be his disciple we have to deny ourselves and follow him.

 

[garee]

Calvinism informs that our "Dead Resistance" is eternal and called, Total Depravity, unless God intercedes as part of his predetermined plan to excise His Elect from that condition.

Amen. . . For who has resisted the will of the father ? He who works in us to both will and do His good pleasure is of one mind, he always does whatsoever His soul pleases .

My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me: Job 2311--16

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Oh, how I do dearly love my Father in Heaven!

Near tears I sit now typing this because of the great revelation of His words that again pricked my heart. It also calmed my fear that I felt after I read someone here state that , rather than using the term, Irresistible Grace, they used Quickened, so as to say unless God quickens our heart we , who are dead in our sins will not be able to understand the scriptures that save. Could that be believed? Did I miss something?
I thought to myself, as they likely intended to communicate in total of their perspective concerning dead in trespasses and sins, that there shall be those who think rather than the I in TULIP, it is instead true of the Q in Quickened, reading that persons statement. Could it be?

No. That fear in me is what I believe led my Father to deliver unto me His words of comfort and so that I may satisfy any fear , any doubt, anyone else may have had reading that they have to somehow be allowed by God, be it Irresistible Grace or Quickening, before they are able to read and understand His word. Or, come to Salvation.

That they would not , if they are a seeker of Christ here among us, or one who holds faith but is unsure they are saved, be able to come to Christ if God did not quicken them first. And then the natural concern after that consideration would be, how would one know God had done this?
And low and behold, my precious Father sent me that Book of Acts chapter 16, and all that I have shared here of God's word prior to that pasting.
The world's people were dead in their sins prior to Jesus taking the sins, those sins of the world, upon Himself on the cross.

He bore them all that we would not perish under them. And all we have to do to receive the free gift of God's irrevocable grace, is to believe in that. To believe God so loved us all that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish in their sin , but shall have eternal life!

Believe that Jesus paid your price for your sins that made you dead to the spiritual things. Jesus tasted spiritual death, he took our place on the cross and paid the price , our price, for our sins. The sins of the whole world.

Those who were once dead are made alive in that. ALL people! And in that way, those who are still in their sins, are able to be redeemed through the simple act of faith!
As the Saint Apostle Paul tells us and as he told the church in Ephesus in his epistle, letter, to the Ephesians there.

The Book of Ephesians chapter 2

And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the [b]powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the [c]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together [d]with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; 12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; 16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 and he came and [e]preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: 18 for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. 19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom [f]each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy [g]temple in the Lord; 22 in whom ye also are builded together [h]for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

Footnotes

1. Ephesians 2:2 Greek age.
2. Ephesians 2:2 Greek power.
3. Ephesians 2:3 Greek thoughts.
4. Ephesians 2:5 Some ancient authorities read in Christ.
5. Ephesians 2:17 Greek brought good tidings of peace. Compare Mt. 11:5.
6. Ephesians 2:21 Greek every building.
7. Ephesians 2:21 Or, sanctuary
8. Ephesians 2:22 Greek into.

Christ and His sacrifice saved the world. And what do you have to do to enter into that eternal irrevocable covenant? Just believe!
Believe you are worth more than the worldly trappings tell you you are and define who you are. Because God does!

There is no greater peace and comfort given than is given in the understanding of the doctrine that Jesus taught, but if the way that you interpret the scriptures gives you peace and comfort enough, then stick with what you think they mean. As I have told you before, I can tell. by the evidence you have shown, that you are one of God's elect, and heaven will be your eternal destination.

 

[Hevosmies]

Just to add some positivity to the mix:

I work shoulder to shoulder with ARMINIANS to deliver the Gospel to the LOST. Arminian or Calvinist, Gospel is the Gospel!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I guess you weren't listening? Maybe you didn't reflect...?

If all sins are atoned for what do people need to be saved from?

Do you just not understand the question?

Grandpa, Have you experienced, as I have, that an "eternal salvation by good works" believer will go to ridiculous extremes to hold on to his ability by his works?