Are Christians going to be around during the start of the tribulation??

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I

ib4gzus

Guest
#61
Jesus was referring to 70AD. two questions are asked by the disciples.

a rebuilt temple in and of itself would (will) be an abomination.

you're mixing two eschatological systems that don't work: looks like some unfulfilled daniel mixed in.

where you get this idea i have no clue:

"The Diciples will not be alive at the Tribulation"

christians will be alive during the final showdown, and some right at the Second Advent.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord
When i said Diciple, i was referring to the 12 diciples Jesus was talking to. (Literally)
It is hard to understand what some people believe by what they type sometimes.

I also believe that "christians will be alive during the final showdown" or right up to the rapture takes them out.:)
 

jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
1,154
10
38
39
#62
I heard the rapture is a new idea (like 1800s) and the church fathers didn't teach it. But I've had some who believe the rapture tell me that it's an old idea. I don't know.
 
P

peterT

Guest
#63
mmmmm..............how can this be SO HARD???
nm.
carry on with your Scofieldism.
attribute the Finished Work of Christ laid out in Daniel 9 to the devil if you want to.
whatever.
The 7 year agreement by the Antichrist, Its basic bible doctrine in 1000s of churches throw-out the world. If you don’t like it it’s not my fault.
 
I

ib4gzus

Guest
#64
I'm personally of the opinion that we will not go through the tribulation. I believe there is a verse that mentions the Holy Spirit will be removed during this time. If so, then we as Christians would lose the Holy Spirit. However, this is only if the verse is in there. If not, then it's not.

The thing is, would we really even know if we are in the time of the tribulation, if it had started, and we are not raptured until mid or post tribulation.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. Paul continues to explain who this son of perdition is, continuing and saying: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now letteth will let, until He be taken out of the way. There it is, He who let's is the Holy Ghost, read it like this: For the mysterious work of satan, the work of iniquity is already going on: only He who now let's it happen, will continue to allow it to happen, until He be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: (2 Thessolonians 2:1-8)


The Holy Spirit is now on earth, within the very body of those who are God's Saved. God restrains satan from doing the evil he would like to do, it is kind of like God holding back a mad vicious dog on a leash and that leash is us. But, once the Lord has had enough, once the people of earth have reached the point where the Lord washes His holy and incorruptible hands of humanity, He gathers His up, we call it the rapture. In gathering us up, He also recalls God the Holy Ghost, who dwells within us, leaving absolutely no restraint on satan.
 
P

peterT

Guest
#65
I heard the rapture is a new idea (like 1800s) and the church fathers didn't teach it. But I've had some who believe the rapture tell me that it's an old idea. I don't know.

The word rapture is not in the Bible but rapture is a word used by Christians to explain the gathering together in the air in the clouds of the saints.
It’s just a word and it works.

1 Thessalonians Chapter 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
Nowhere in the Bible does a rapture take place
before the great tribulation.
It is a delusion, it’s just smoke and mirrors, designed by the devil to keep God’s children unprepared.

The pre-tribulation prophets have gathered a hand full of Bible verses together and bound them together with words of the flesh, and fear to make it sound like there’s going to be a rapture before the tribulation.
BUT nowhere in the Bible does a rapture take place before the great tribulation.
We are going to be tried and tested just like everybody else in the Bible.
Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation at the last trumpet in the clouds
 
K

kayem77

Guest
#66
I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture....but the more I read verses like these the more I believe we will go through the great tribulation.

Let's get ready for a big..OH DUH moment..


Speaking to the disciples, he says..when YOU SEE the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.....and he says to his disciples...if anyone says to YOU behold there is Christ, don't believe him....

Now if Christians are to be raptured out of the tribulation, why would Jesus say to HIS disciples, when YOU see and when YOU hear?

If Christians are raptured out, they would have nothing to see or hear!

Some may say, well Jesus means if you see this while i heaven..Well how could someone in heaven be deceived about a false Christ? Jesus is warning them not to be deceived, how can they be deceived while in heaven?

He's not speaking to a large crowd of believers and non believers. This is just Jesus and the disciples here. And he saying YOU YOU YOU.

Matthew 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 [h]Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the [l]Christ,’ or ‘[m]There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will [n]show great [o]signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the [p]elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the [q]vultures will gather.


From those verses StillWaters, its also interesting to notice this one: 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short.

If those are the elect, wouldn't they be raptured before all this happens? But no....Jesus just said that the days will be cut short because the elect are going to go through all the tribulation. So that makes me wonder...
And also the verses before and after those verses you posted:

"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. Matthew 24:9

Matthew 24:29-31
But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So the Lord is coming with the sound of a great trompet after the great tribulation;and then it will start the WRATH of God(different from the tribulation for believers as I understand it)
and also this verse, as I was reading it yesterday I noticed something:

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

It says those who are STILL alive, and LEFT, will be caught up (or raptured). It doesnt say BEFORE, it says after that.

Putting all that together, along with another verses in Revelations, makes me think that the pre-trib is unsustainable, and that there are more verses supporting a post tribulation but pre-wrath of God.
 
I

ib4gzus

Guest
#68
Since so many of you dont believe in the rapture i thought i would post this::)

Question:
What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

Answer:
The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church
(all believers in Christ) from the earth.
The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.
Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air.
This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.

The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom.
The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.




The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

-At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air
(1 Thessalonians 4:17).

~At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth
(Revelation 19:14).

-The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation
(Revelation chapters 6–19).

~The rapture occurs before the tribulation
(1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

-The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9).

~The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment
(Matthew 24:40-41).

-The rapture will be secret and instant
(1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

~The second coming will be visible to all
(Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).


-The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place
(2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18).

~The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment
(Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).







Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event,
believers will have to go through the tribulation -
(1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events.

Both involve Jesus returning.
Both are end-times events.
However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences.

In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.
 
P

peterT

Guest
#69
But it is not in the Word
YES it is...

7 years

Genesis 29:27Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.


Daniel 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And HE (prince of this world) shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE week: and in the midst of the WEEK he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

John12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Matt24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


The prince of this world shall confirm the holy covenant with many for seven years and in the middle of the seven years will go against the holy agreement and place there or set up there the abomination of desolation and then shall great tribulation begin.
 
Oct 2, 2011
416
3
0
#70
YES it is...

7 years

Genesis 29:27Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.


Daniel 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And HE (prince of this world) shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE week: and in the midst of the WEEK he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

John12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Matt24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


The prince of this world shall confirm the holy covenant with many for seven years and in the middle of the seven years will go against the holy agreement and place there or set up there the abomination of desolation and then shall great tribulation begin.
The problem here is you ADDED prince of this world to the prophecy in Daniel 9. Daniel 9 is a prophecy of Messiah, not anti christ

Also the fact that you would stretch as far as to claim Genesis 29:27 has anything at all to do with the Tribulation shows you really have nothing to go on
 
P

peterT

Guest
#71
The problem here is you ADDED prince of this world to the prophecy in Daniel 9. Daniel 9 is a prophecy of Messiah, not anti christ

Also the fact that you would stretch as far as to claim Genesis 29:27 has anything at all to do with the Tribulation shows you really have nothing to go on

It’s better than putting Jesus as HE in that verse
I have this verse
.

Daniel 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And this verse.
John14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

And this verse shows a week is seven years.

Genesis 29:27Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.

What have you got to put Jesus as (HE) in that verse???????
NOTHING
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#72
It’s better than putting Jesus as HE in that verse
I have this verse
.

Daniel 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And this verse.
John14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

And this verse shows a week is seven years.

Genesis 29:27Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.

What have you got to put Jesus as (HE) in that verse???????
NOTHING
Daniel 9:25-27
(25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince (Israel) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he (Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he
(Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What is the covenant in verse 27?
Daniel 9:4
(4) And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Jeremiah 38:17-18, 23
(17) Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then thy soul shall live, and this city shall not be burned with fire; and thou shalt live, and thine house:
(18) But if thou wilt not go forth to the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand.
(23) So they shall bring out all thy wives and thy children to the Chaldeans: and thou shalt not escape out of their hand, but shalt be taken by the hand of the king of Babylon: and thou shalt cause this city to be burned with fire.

[FONT=&quot]Because of the sins of Israel God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed by Babylon and because of the sins of Israel in rejecting Christ God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed in 70 AD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]





 
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peterT

Guest
#73
Daniel 9:25-27
(25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince (Israel) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he (Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he
(Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What is the covenant in verse 27?
Daniel 9:4
(4) And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Jeremiah 38:17-18, 23
(17) Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then thy soul shall live, and this city shall not be burned with fire; and thou shalt live, and thine house:
(18) But if thou wilt not go forth to the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand.
(23) So they shall bring out all thy wives and thy children to the Chaldeans: and thou shalt not escape out of their hand, but shalt be taken by the hand of the king of Babylon: and thou shalt cause this city to be burned with fire.

[FONT=&quot]Because of the sins of Israel God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed by Babylon and because of the sins of Israel in rejecting Christ God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed in 70 AD[/FONT]





So what verse or verses do you have to put (Messiah) in that verse??
And what verses or verse do you have to put (Israel )in that verse??
 
P

peterT

Guest
#74
Daniel 9:25-27
(25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince (Israel) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he (Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he
(Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What is the covenant in verse 27?
Daniel 9:4
(4) And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Jeremiah 38:17-18, 23
(17) Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then thy soul shall live, and this city shall not be burned with fire; and thou shalt live, and thine house:
(18) But if thou wilt not go forth to the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand.
(23) So they shall bring out all thy wives and thy children to the Chaldeans: and thou shalt not escape out of their hand, but shalt be taken by the hand of the king of Babylon: and thou shalt cause this city to be burned with fire.

[FONT=&quot]Because of the sins of Israel God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed by Babylon and because of the sins of Israel in rejecting Christ God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed in 70 AD[/FONT]






Daniel 11:22And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 11:28Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart [shall be] against the holy covenant; and he shall do [exploits], and return to his own land.

Daniel 11:30For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Daniel 11:32And such as do wickedly against the COVENANT shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].
Jesus never made a seven year agreement with anyone.
It’s talking about AC not Jesus
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#75
Daniel 11:22And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 11:28Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart [shall be] against the holy covenant; and he shall do [exploits], and return to his own land.

Daniel 11:30For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Daniel 11:32And such as do wickedly against the COVENANT shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].
Jesus never made a seven year agreement with anyone.
It’s talking about AC not Jesus
There is no covenant made in verse 27 it says "He shall confirm the covenant". He confirmed the covenant that God made already.
 

TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
2,150
26
0
#76
It’s better than putting Jesus as HE in that verse
I have this verse
.

Daniel 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And this verse.
John14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

And this verse shows a week is seven years.

Genesis 29:27Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.

What have you got to put Jesus as (HE) in that verse???????
NOTHING
I remember studying Daniel 9 not long ago and I came to the same conclusion that there were two rulers here. One of them was an evil ruler who stops the sacrifices and sets up an abomination and the other was Jesus the Messiah. What's more I believe the periods of seven are grouped together because they are not all meant to occur in succession. So you can read any number of years in between the first groupings and the last 7 years. And the "weeks" here are literally "sevens". Hebrew used the term "seven" for "week", but "seven" itself can mean simply that - 7. It doesn't have to mean week. And it is clear that these 7's are counted in weeks of years - not weeks of days.
 
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peterT

Guest
#77
There is no covenant made in verse 27 it says "He shall confirm the covenant". He confirmed the covenant that God made already.
Is that wright.
so where is this seven year covenant that God made already, and Jesus is conforming that covenant?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#78
Is that wright.
so where is this seven year covenant that God made already, and Jesus is conforming that covenant?

DISPENSATIONAL VIEW OF DANIEL 9 (ERROR)

REASONS FOR THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE

NUMBER 1 The 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy.

This is for Israel not the Church!

All the other false views on the timing of the rapture have one thing in common. They don't understand that God has a plan for the Church and God has a plan for Israel. The Church is a mystery, a called out people between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon THY PEOPLE and UPON THY HOLY CITY, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

**Note: notice that the 70 weeks are 'determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city'. This is the Jewish people of Israel and Jerusalem. We could stop right here as Daniel specifically says that the 70 weeks are for Israel and not the Church. The Church is a called out people between the 69th and 70th week. To put the Church on earth during the 70th week is to contradict Daniel above.

Notice that 70 Weeks of years (490 years) are determined upon the people of Israel to:

- finish the transgression
- to make an end of sins
- to make reconciliation for iniquity
- to bring in everlasting righteousness
- to seal up the vision and prophecy
- to anoint the most Holy (The Lord Jesus in the Millennial Kingdom)

All this has NOT yet been fulfilled. It will yet be fulfilled upon the nation of Israel just like Daniel was told. Lets continue on in the prophecy:

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

These verses are talking about the 7 weeks and 62 weeks of years which add up to 69 weeks. At the end of the 69th week the Messiah will be cut off. This happened at the cross of Calvary. So all that is left is that final week of 7 years. For a more detailed explanation get a good prophecy book that studies Daniel's 70 weeks. (Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffery, M.R. Dehaan, Dwight Pentacost, J. Walvwood, Dave Hunt, Paul LaLonde etc...)

For a review: Daniel said there was appointed 70 weeks of years for Israel to bring in all righteousness and setup Messaiah. When Jesus entered Jerusalem in His triumphal entry it marked the end of the 69 weeks. So we are waiting for the 70th week to be fulfilled.

This 70th week begins when the anti-Christ confirms a covenant with Israel for 7 years. In the middle of the week he will break his covenant and commit the abomination of desolation.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now between the 69th and the 70th week there is a time gap... commonly referred to as the Church age.

Points to consider:

- The prophetic 70 weeks stopped at the rejection and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, The Messiah.

- That occurred after 69 weeks or 483 years.

- God has been using the Church (invisible body of Christ) during that time period.

............................................................................................


BIBLICAL UNDERSTANDING OF DANIEL 9 (TRUTH)

DANIEL 9:24
"Seventy weeks [shavu'im shiv'im] are determined for your people and
for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make
reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up
[chetom] vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy." (NKJV)


The phrase "seventy weeks" in this verse comes from the Hebrew shavu'im shiv'im, which literally means "seventy sevens." Just as we in western culture tend to view years in groups of ten ("decades"), anciently the Jews thought of years as being in groups of seven (based on the seven-year sabbatical cycle, Lev. 25:1-7).​

The "seventy sevens" spoken of here refers to 70 x 7 years, or a total of 490 years.

According to this Scripture, seven things would occur within the 490-year period decreed for the Jews and Jerusalem. All seven of these things relate to the Messiah and his people:​

"restrain the transgression"

ISAIAH 53:8
He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His
generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the
transgressions of My people He was stricken. (NKJV)​

HEBREWS 9:15
And for this reason he is the mediator of the new covenant, by
means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first
covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal
inheritance. (NKJV)​

"make an end to sins"

JOHN 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The
Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (NKJV)​

HEBREWS 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the
world; but now, once at the end of the ages, he has appeared to put away sin by
the sacrifice of himself. (NKJV)​

"make atonement for iniquity"

ISAIAH 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to
his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (NKJV)​

ROMANS 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his
blood. He did this to demonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance He
had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished – (NIV)​

HEBREWS 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way,
in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to
God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. (NIV)

"bring in age-lasting righteousness"

ISAIAH 53:11

He shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted
righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities. (RSV)​

ROMANS 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that
one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace
and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus
Christ. (NIV)​

"seal up vision"

The word translated "seal up" here is from the Hebrew root word chatam. This
word literally means "to lock up" or "to shut up."​

ISAIAH 29:10
For the LORD has poured out on you the spirit of deep sleep, and
has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; and He has covered your heads,
namely, the seers. 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a
book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read
this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed." 12 Then the book is
delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says,
"I am not literate." 13 Therefore the LORD said: "Inasmuch as these people
draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their
hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of
men, 14 therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work among this people, a
marvelous work and a wonder; for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and
the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden." (NKJV)​

"seal up prophecy"

ROMANS 11:7
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect
have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: "God
has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that
they should not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "Let their table
become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let
their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back
always." (NKJV)

"anoint the most holy"

LUKE 4:18

"The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because He has anointed me to
preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to
proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at
liberty those who are oppressed;" (NKJV)​

ACTS 10:38
"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with
power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the
devil, for God was with him." (NKJV)​

~​

Daniel 9 is about Jesus (and His instrument of desolation Titus in 70AD).
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#79
The 7 year agreement by the Antichrist, Its basic bible doctrine in 1000s of churches throw-out the world. If you don’t like it it’s not my fault.
Dear petert:
It's your fault if you believe in a "pre-tribulation rapture" of the church. The Church Christ founded does not believe it, says it is heresy, and that's good enough for me. Scott in Erie
 

TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
2,150
26
0
#80
Dear petert:
It's your fault if you believe in a "pre-tribulation rapture" of the church. The Church Christ founded does not believe it, says it is heresy, and that's good enough for me. Scott in Erie
On the contrary, what you fail to realize is that it's all a conspiracy invented by Harold Camping.