Are Christians going to be around during the start of the tribulation??

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Jun 24, 2010
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No you and all the judeo christians have an obsession with the alleged chosen ones
which are not but those who have faith in Jesus Christ alone.
You deliberately misinterpreting the bible for the sake of the jews.

And yes i can't stand the crying shame that the alleged victims are in fact the historical revolutionary
perpetrators and mass murderers and that they seem to get away with it always gutting the gentiles
mocking and spitting on Jesus and Christians.
And still most of the pseudo christians fell down for them in admiration instead to Jesus.
But..

Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me,
I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

1. Thessalonians 2:15-16
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
I have been critical of certain of the Jews in the past but they are my neighbor as much as anyone else, so I will treat them accordingly. They have a different frame of reference then I do and it serves no purpose to even debate with them concerning the Messiah. Those that reject Christ remain in unbelief and will not inherit eternal life but those who believe upon the Messiah that has come will be cleansed from all sin and will not perish but have everlasting life. I pray that their eyes would be opened and they be granted mercy through Jesus Christ. When Christ comes for His church and those of Israel remain in unbelief, God has promised to raised up 12,000 children of Israel from each of the twelve tribes and they will proclaim the Lamb and a remnant will believe and all of Israel that believes will be saved.

Rom 11:13-30

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

How can anyone after reading this passage not understand what Paul is saying and just get it so wrong.
 

duewell

Senior Member
Mar 5, 2011
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has this become a food fight with fruit from the tree of knowledge? are we so busy eating and throwing fruit at each other we forget what matters? cant i just have faith in Gods word without having understanding of it? did anybody even read genesis? if you cannot understand the first book in the bible and what it teaches, you will never understand the last book of the bible.

if you think knowledge is the answer to salvation, and specifically that your knowledge is the answer to salvation, all i can say is, if your not right, maybe there is a tree that can help you get that knowledge. do you really want to know the mind of God? were we meant to? i find faith far more palatable than knowledge. knowledge seems to create a lot of indigestion. i don't think anyone is going anywhere for awhile yet. they have not finished their dinner.

Duewell
unconditional love deserves uncompromising care.
 
S

systemdown101

Guest
He's got an obsession with Jews.
To put it mildly.

No you and all the judeo christians have an obsession with the alleged chosen ones


"Alleged" - ?

And yes i can't stand the crying shame that the alleged victims are in fact the historical revolutionary
perpetrators and mass murderers and that they seem to get away with it always gutting the gentiles
mocking and spitting on Jesus and Christians.
So in one fell swoop, we have Jews who are now "alleged" victims, mass murderers, and are running about spitting on Jesus and Christians. This sounds first like a denial of the Holocaust, then a -

You know what? This is so over the top, I don't even know where to begin with it, and the answer I had originally typed out wouldn't do a thing to put a dent in this kind of opinion. I'm afraid that if I quote Zechariah 2:8, we might hear an explosion. I think I'll just shake my head and quietly laugh at it all.

Jesus was a Palistenian Jew.
Shh!

I have been critical of certain of the Jews in the past but they are my neighbor as much as anyone else, so I will treat them accordingly. They have a different frame of reference then I do and it serves no purpose to even debate with them concerning the Messiah. Those that reject Christ remain in unbelief and will not inherit eternal life but those who believe upon the Messiah that has come will be cleansed from all sin and will not perish but have everlasting life. I pray that their eyes would be opened and they be granted mercy through Jesus Christ. When Christ comes for His church and those of Israel remain in unbelief, God has promised to raised up 12,000 children of Israel from each of the twelve tribes and they will proclaim the Lamb and a remnant will believe and all of Israel that believes will be saved.
The frame of reference for unsaved Jews is the cultural history of multiple attempts of attempted genocide against them, several by Christians, certainly some by people who called themselves such. And people calling them mass murderers, stuff like that. In fact, proof of Gods existence for a non-believer can be found in the very survival of the Jew for so long before 1948 and the re-founding of Israel. Jewish survival would be impossible without Divine assistance.

I maintain that the best way to convert any Jew willing to listen would be by gently going over all the prophecies found in the OT regarding Yeshua, especially Isaiah. And pray, yes, do a lot of prayer. But I think something else that might help would be actually knowing what Jewish life and culture really is. Many people seem to know more about what Jews do than the Jews themselves and yet have never set foot in a synagogue, or even walked into a kosher deli! I think I can safely say many of those people post on this website.

Although, it might be interesting to see what would happen if someone walked into a Jewish community saying "I can't stand the crying shame that the alleged victims are in fact the historical revolutionary perpetrators and mass murderers and that they seem to get away with it always gutting the gentiles mocking and spitting on Jesus and Christians." Could anyone guess the number of souls saved by that speech if it were delivered in a Temple? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

How can anyone after reading this passage not understand what Paul is saying and just get it so wrong.
People see what they want to see.
 

TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
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I maintain that the best way to convert any Jew willing to listen would be by gently going over all the prophecies found in the OT regarding Yeshua, especially Isaiah. And pray, yes, do a lot of prayer. But I think something else that might help would be actually knowing what Jewish life and culture really is. Many people seem to know more about what Jews do than the Jews themselves and yet have never set foot in a synagogue, or even walked into a kosher deli! I think I can safely say many of those people post on this website.
Interestingly enough the Jews seem to place more emphasis on the Midrash than on the Torah. So rather than reading the Torah for themselves and making up their own minds they'll just read the Midrash which is an interpretation of Torah by earlier rabbis and will just accept their word as truth. So the Jews have their Midrash and the Christians have their Epistles, but no one pays much attention to what the Torah actually says which is what God authored, himself. Of course Jesus' words also were Torah, since the Torah is the same as God's Word (e.g. Psalm 119:43 & Psalm 119 - whole chapter). Jesus was also the Word (i.e. Torah) as seen in John 1:14.

Psalm 119:43 Never take your word of truth from my mouth, for I have put my hope in your laws.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Just something I thought was interesting. Always thought the Jews placed a great deal of emphasis on the Torah, but they only really give it lip-service.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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Goodness this is so so simple. IN matthew 24, when he's speaking privately to his disciples he says..

when YOU see the abomination of desolation.......when YOU hear of false Messiahs....


If Christians are raptured during that tribulation...how could THEY have seen or heard what he was clearly warning THEM of?

This really isn't as difficult to figure out as some are making it.
Even with the church being taken up before the great tribulation, you must consider the fact that the same Bible and scriptures we have today will be the same during that time of trouble. It won't be obsolete and there is no prophecy to indicate that concerning the written word. Just for the sake of thinking this through as you have presented it, take the scriptures you are referring to and put yourself as a child of one of the twelve tribes of Israel in the great tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble. Now acknowledge these scriptures in the context and setting that you are in. They would apply to you and have greater meaning because of their present application and for this to happen the church does not have to be present. I don't believe that it is mandatory that those scriptures were speaking to the church but rather to the people of Israel during that time of Jacob's trouble.

I do believe that the church must be removed and taken out of the way for the son of perdition to be revealed and the Antichrist to come, so that God can deal with the children of Israel and the children of disobedience left upon the earth. When we put the church in this mix we run into all kinds of problems and this is where the difficulty comes in, but when the church is absent, then it is much easier and more consistent to understand God's program during that time. No one has any evidence in the scriptures as to what happens to the church during that time of tribulation and if you call or indicate that the church is spiritual Israel then you have to mingle them together, and God never mingled the children of Israel with the church.

That middle wall of partition that was broken down made both one when they believed upon Christ and His blood and they constitute the church of called out ones as the body and bride of Christ. Israel never became the church nor did the church became spiritual Israel. Israel rejected Christ, except for a remnant, the first time He came but the second time they will see Him as a nation and people and ungodliness shall be turned away from Jacob (Rom 11:26). Those that are Christ's and the myriads of holy ones (saints and angels) shall come with Him at His second coming to appear not for sin but for salvation (Heb 9:28) and shall execute judgment (Jude 15).