666 Mark of Beast A non-left behind/dispensational/Hal Lindsey perspective

[1still_waters]

Then it must be no time in the spirit then because in your own words not all Revelation is fulfilled.

The difference between you and me on the mark of the beast is, I teach and preach it as it is written and you don’t. I have not added or taken away from the word but you are trying too.

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark.

If it’s already happened or happening then have you been buying or selling lately?

Sorry but given the context of the Bible, it's not implausible that this is a figurative mark, especially since it's in a part of Revelation that is using symbols and imagery. Also given the fact that the Jewish culture it's written in to, would have a point of reference in the OT to 'marks' which happened to also be non-literal.

Exodus 13
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the Lord killed the firstborn of both people and animals in Egypt. This is why I sacrifice to the Lord the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.’ 16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the Lord brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand.”

Deut 6
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.


So those people familiar with the OT symbolism, and to those OT points of reference, could reasonably believe that the mark of the beast wasn't literal, just as it wasn't literal in some of the scriptures they were so familiar with.

 

[1still_waters]

Anyways I'm hopping off the Merry-go-around for now. This is wayyy more discussion in a forum than I'm used to.

 

[iamsoandso]

"???????????",,,,,,,,,,,what a point you have made,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[peterT]

Lol so you'll take the mark as literal, but NOT the repeated references to these things being near/soon/at hand/coming quickly as literal? *face palm*

So near can also mean far away? What words would Jesus have used if he had meant to tell them near? Oh he would have said near!

If statements like near/quickly/soon in Revlation don't mean what we know them to mean then I guess there could be a 2000+ year gap between the second woe and third woe because it says..

Revelation 11:
14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.


Of course then you'll flip back to wanting to take time statements like quickly/soon as literal.

I just find it sadly funny that quckly/soon/near/at hand is taken literally in every place in the NT, except in these four or five verses Revelation! If we let scripture interpret scripture, then it has to mean the same thing in these few verses that it meant in the MANY verses. Especially when it's in a non-symbolic part of the text, and especially when you DEMAND we take so much LITERALLY, even if it's in a more symbolic part of the text.

Keep in mind, in prophetic text, God communicates time to us on our level. When he means to communicate near to us on our level he says near. When he means to communicate far away to us on our level he says far away. Look at what he did in Daniel. To communicate far away to them on their level, he didn't say near/soon. He used words to indicate a longer passage of time...

Daniel 8:26
“And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For it refers to many days in the future.”

Daniel 10:14
Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”

So how do I know the mark of the beast has already happened?

Because Jesus told them those things were going to happen soon, and because God has a solid record of communicating such things to us on our level so we can understand when something is near, soon or far away.

You can’t have it both ways 1still_waters you can’t say near/soon/at hand, fulfilled 2000 years ago, and then say some of revelation is to come.

You do know what Jesus said about a double minded man.

James1:7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[1still_waters]

You can’t have it both ways 1still_waters you can’t say near/soon/at hand, fulfilled 2000 years ago, and then say some of revelation is to come.

You do know what Jesus said about a double minded man.

James1:7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

The 1000 millenium marker in Revelation 20 was the indicator to them/us that everything up til THEN would be fulfilled. Obviously 1000 years isn't soon. So they/us would see that marker and realize that obviously stuff at that point wouldn't be soon.

Ok then you're going to say, "But still waters, it's been more than 1000 years."

To which I'd say, "Uh huh!"

Then I'd say, "It's not a literal 1000 years."

To which you'd say, "How is that so?"

I'd say, "Well in the greek it says 'a thousand' not 1000. There is a grammatical difference between the number 1000 and the term 'a thousand'. In Revelation 20:2,3,5,6, the greek word chilioi is used. That word is a plural of an uncertain affinity. Meaning it's not a definite number. It's a symbolic indefinite.

We see this often in the Bible where 'a 1000' is figurative for a lot of stuff or a big undefined number. Here are some examples.

Psalms 50:10, “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.”

Psalms 84:10, “For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand.”

Psalms 105:8, “He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.”

There are more, but I think you get the point. It's not saying the cattle on only 1000 hills belong to God. A thousand is used to portray a long indefinite number or all. No one would say the 1001th day in the courts of God is unpleasant since it says only a thousand are pleasant."

So yes, I can have it both ways, because Revelation reveals it to be so.

 

[Abiding]

very cool..just stopped by starbucks for a big bag....dont quit now!

 

[cronjecj]

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that
had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the
number of his name. Rev 13:17

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire,
that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment,
that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame
of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine
eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. Rev 3:18

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a
purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he
that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy
one. Luke 22:36

it's called symbolism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that
had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the
number of his name. Rev 13:17

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire,
that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment,
that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame
of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine
eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. Rev 3:18

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a
purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he
that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy
one. Luke 22:36

it's called symbolism.

That does not make sense. And I think is a stretch.

In rev, we are supposed to be looking at the things happening. One of the things is the mark, which is of the beast. This mark has value in that no one can purchase or sell any goods of any type unless they receive this mark. It is a way in which the beast will control things.

 

[cronjecj]

most of rev is already fulfilled if not all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

most of rev is already fulfilled if not all.

it has been? since when?

 

[cronjecj]

Behold, I come quickly (2000 years ago):
blessed is he that keepeth the sayings
of the prophecy of this book.

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings
of the prophecy of this book: for the time
is at hand (2000 years ago).


Blessed are they that do his commandments
that they may have right to the tree of
life (Christ), and may enter in through the
gates into the city (body of Christ).

it's all Spiritual.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water (natural birth)
and of the Spirit (new birth), he cannot enter
into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

..if you haven't entered into the kingdom of
God yet little will you see that most if not all
of rev is fulfilled already because of it's
Spiritual nature.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Behold, I come quickly (2000 years ago):
blessed is he that keepeth the sayings
of the prophecy of this book.

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings
of the prophecy of this book: for the time
is at hand (2000 years ago).


Blessed are they that do his commandments
that they may have right to the tree of
life (Christ), and may enter in through the
gates into the city (body of Christ).

it's all Spiritual.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water (natural birth)
and of the Spirit (new birth), he cannot enter
into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

..if you haven't entered into the kingdom of
God yet little will you see that most if not all
of rev is fulfilled already because of it's
Spiritual nature.

spiritual in nature? so all Gods judgments are spiritual? where do you get this? when was the harlot destroyed and the kings mourned her? when was the woman in the mountains while God protected her, and the man of sin went ofter her offspring?

yes God used spiritual or allegoric things, but these things show literal events. just like the four beasts of daniel.

revelation has not begun to be fulfilled yet. as far as the judgments go. these are the days of Gods wrath, which he is patient in his dealing wiht man, willing that non should parish, which is why he is waiting.

 

[cronjecj]

God is not waiting for anyone, we
are waiting for Him.

the woman fled into the wilderness
is Israel and her offspring is us..

it's now until the 2nd advent.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God is not waiting for anyone, we
are waiting for Him.

the woman fled into the wilderness
is Israel and her offspring is us..

it's now until the 2nd advent.

The woman is Isreal. We are her offspring. we did not give birth to Christ Isreal did. We are the offspring of Isreal through Christ.

She fled and God protected her.

 

[peterT]

The 1000 millenium marker in Revelation 20 was the indicator to them/us that everything up til THEN would be fulfilled. Obviously 1000 years isn't soon. So they/us would see that marker and realize that obviously stuff at that point wouldn't be soon.

Ok then you're going to say, "But still waters, it's been more than 1000 years."

To which I'd say, "Uh huh!"

Then I'd say, "It's not a literal 1000 years."

To which you'd say, "How is that so?"

I'd say, "Well in the greek it says 'a thousand' not 1000. There is a grammatical difference between the number 1000 and the term 'a thousand'. In Revelation 20:2,3,5,6, the greek word chilioi is used. That word is a plural of an uncertain affinity. Meaning it's not a definite number. It's a symbolic indefinite.

We see this often in the Bible where 'a 1000' is figurative for a lot of stuff or a big undefined number. Here are some examples.

Psalms 50:10, “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.”

Psalms 84:10, “For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand.”

Psalms 105:8, “He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.”

There are more, but I think you get the point. It's not saying the cattle on only 1000 hills belong to God. A thousand is used to portray a long indefinite number or all. No one would say the 1001th day in the courts of God is unpleasant since it says only a thousand are pleasant."

So yes, I can have it both ways, because Revelation reveals it to be so.

No you can’t have it both ways am afraid.

For you quote this verse which is in Rv22

Rv22:10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

If you say it’s fulfilled already then you should stick to what you say, or that would make you doctrine hypocritical.

When I quote something that has not happened from revelation, you say the time is at hand so its fulfilled already but when you quote something that has not happened from revelation then it’s not fulfilled already. That makes your doctrine hypocritical dose it not?

Your doctrine is nonsense and not in the spirit of God.

And as for the mark it being symbolic.

God seal on his people is symbolic not man’s mark

But the mark of the beast it’s the number of a man. It’s not Gods seal or number


And man in his history as put a mark on man lots of times, the Jews, the slaves’ cattle, and street gangs etc. etc. and so on.

The mark of the beast in the number of a man not the seal of God.

What’s wrong with good old fashion scripture and sticking to the script?

 

[1still_waters]

No you can’t have it both ways am afraid.

For you quote this verse which is in Rv22

Rv22:10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

If you say it’s fulfilled already then you should stick to what you say, or that would make you doctrine hypocritical.

When I quote something that has not happened from revelation, you say the time is at hand so its fulfilled already but when you quote something that has not happened from revelation then it’s not fulfilled already. That makes your doctrine hypocritical dose it not?

Your doctrine is nonsense and not in the spirit of God.

And as for the mark it being symbolic.

God seal on his people is symbolic not man’s mark

But the mark of the beast it’s the number of a man. It’s not Gods seal or number


And man in his history as put a mark on man lots of times, the Jews, the slaves’ cattle, and street gangs etc. etc. and so on.

The mark of the beast in the number of a man not the seal of God.

What’s wrong with good old fashion scripture and sticking to the script?

You say..
Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

I say..
Yup the time for his coming in judgement in that generation on Jerusalem that happened in ad 70. In matt 24 he said it would happen to that generation.

------

You say..
When I quote something that has not happened from revelation, you say the time is at hand so its fulfilled already but when you quote something that has not happened from revelation then it’s not fulfilled already. That makes your doctrine hypocritical dose it not?

Your doctrine is nonsense and not in the spirit of God.

I say...
The only thing I say that hasn't happened in revelation is Jesus coming back to restore creation. There are no contradictions or inconsistencies.

--------------
You say...
And as for the mark it being symbolic.

God seal on his people is symbolic not man’s mark

But the mark of the beast it’s the number of a man. It’s not Gods seal or number


And man in his history as put a mark on man lots of times, the Jews, the slaves’ cattle, and street gangs etc. etc. and so on.

The mark of the beast in the number of a man not the seal of God.

What’s wrong with good old fashion scripture and sticking to the script?

I say...
I can concede this point. It may have in fact been a literal mark. Either way it's already happened because..

1. Because Jesus said it would happen soon.
2. Because it's before the 1000 year marker that signifies the stuff after it won't happen soon, to them.

 

[loveme1]

You say..
Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

I say..
Yup the time for his coming in judgement in that generation on Jerusalem that happened in ad 70. In matt 24 he said it would happen to that generation.

------

You say..
When I quote something that has not happened from revelation, you say the time is at hand so its fulfilled already but when you quote something that has not happened from revelation then it’s not fulfilled already. That makes your doctrine hypocritical dose it not?

Your doctrine is nonsense and not in the spirit of God.

I say...
The only thing I say that hasn't happened in revelation is Jesus coming back to restore creation. There are no contradictions or inconsistencies.

--------------
You say...
And as for the mark it being symbolic.

God seal on his people is symbolic not man’s mark

But the mark of the beast it’s the number of a man. It’s not Gods seal or number


And man in his history as put a mark on man lots of times, the Jews, the slaves’ cattle, and street gangs etc. etc. and so on.

The mark of the beast in the number of a man not the seal of God.

What’s wrong with good old fashion scripture and sticking to the script?

I say...
I can concede this point. It may have in fact been a literal mark. Either way it's already happened because..

1. Because Jesus said it would happen soon.
2. Because it's before the 1000 year marker that signifies the stuff after it won't happen soon, to them.

May i ask, how you come to believe what you believe?

 

[1still_waters]

May i ask, how you come to believe what you believe?

I was raised in the dispensational, left behind type theology. I read my Bible. Things didn't line up, so I studied some more. I'm still studying. Still connecting dots. I have a ton of dots left to connect.

 

[loveme1]

I was raised in the dispensational, left behind type theology. I read my Bible. Things didn't line up, so I studied some more. I'm still studying. Still connecting dots. I have a ton of dots left to connect.

What is a left behind theology?

What things didn't line up, and by what did you attempt to level them with?


I hope you don't mind me asking you questions, i'm interested to see how you have come to believe what you believe.

 

[1still_waters]

What is a left behind theology?

What things didn't line up, and by what did you attempt to level them with?


I hope you don't mind me asking you questions, i'm interested to see how you have come to believe what you believe.

I really don't know how to reply if you don't have that as a point of reference.