50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

The day of the Lord [earthly-time-period] ARRIVES to unfold upon the earth prior to the point in time that Jesus Himself returns to the earth; so it involves (all told) "a period-of-time [not merely 24-hrs] of JUDGMENTs, as well as a period-of-time [also not merely 24-hrs] of BLESSINGs"...

--its ARRIVAL is LIKE... the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3 ; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]']"... the initial "birth pang" that COMES UPON a woman... which Jesus referred to in His Olivet Discourse also;

--and LIKE a thief "IN THE NIGHT"... that is, the TIME-PERIOD arrives "as a thief IN THE NIGHT"...

...but wherever the text uses this ^ phrase re: JESUS HIMSELF, it states, "Behold, *I* come LIKE A THIEF.[period.]" (NO "IN THE NIGHT" words accompany this phrase when speaking of JESUS HIMSELF / JESUS' OWN PERSONAL return / coming to the earth at Rev19. Ex. Rev16:15-16 - Armageddon timing).


I've listed about 3 verses/passages in the past showing how this phrase "IN THE NIGHT" (which is a fairly rare phrase, in OT passages) connects with what I've said about the 7-yr trib above (and its connections--eg. the man of sin, etc...) and in previous posts; as well as the "NIGHT WATCHES" [/'LAMPS LIT'] issue, which I've made posts on in the past too... (related)... Those things are showing the time period LEADING UP TO His "return" to the earth at Rev19 (aka the 7-yr Trib that precedes His RETURN to the earth).

As I've mentioned before, I do see a "CHANGE" in scenery (so to speak) takes place, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [2Th2:7b-8a [and 2Th1:7-8] paralleling the wording of Lam2:3-4]... and that Rev1:1 [/4:1 / 1:19c] is saying that those "future aspects" of the Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" aka those 7-Trib years leading UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19--IOW, He at that point (in Rev5:6) is commencing the [earthly-located] time-period (the DOTL) from His location up IN HEAVEN by means of His action of opening the FIRST SEAL [parallel BoBPs] (I pointed out how in 4:3 the description of the "he that sat" in that verse, is identical to the "first" and "last" gemstones on the "breastpiece of judgment" in Ex28), and it is only at the end of those judgments (7-yrs-worth) that He comes down in a final full-sweeping concluding judgment (and "separation" like in Matt25:31-34), and then the "blessings" aspect will thereafter commence (also not being merely "a singular 24-hr day"), aka the MK age / "the age [singular] to come"]

I think it was ewq a few pages back that posted " he has come".

2 thes theme

Some thought he had come.

Delusion

 

[Absolutely]

The Bible says what it says. I know what it says. I am neither a dispensationalism nor a covenantalist nor a Calvinist nor an Armenian. The categories that you espouse to exist are meaningless and irrelevant to me.

However there are definitely heresies out there. In general most of them kick Israel to the curb. You take Israel out of the eschatological equation and guaranteed you will be promoting a heresy.

Oh no
I learned from the wise ones you got all your info from darby.

The ones that are right and correct about everything.

They, the postribs, told us.

You have his picture on every room of your house.

Without darby, you would have no doctrine.


Oh wait a minute, they said the same about me....and i never even heard if him.

Never mind

 

[Absolutely]

Mat 25: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The order that Jesus tells us is that the reward is given when He comes in Glory.

Not 10 years before or 1000 years after.

In the 2nd coming , i think it is not with all the angels.

What say you?

Iow heaven is emptied of angels when?

 

[Absolutely]

Mat 25: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The order that Jesus tells us is that the reward is given when He comes in Glory.

Not 10 years before or 1000 years after.

Ok i knew something was off here.

You are looking at the gwt judgement .
Re read it. You left out the context

Vs 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[cv5]

Oh no
I learned from the wise ones you got all your info from darby.

The ones that are right and correct about everything.

They, the postribs, told us.

You have his picture on every room of your house.

Without darby, you would have no doctrine.


Oh wait a minute, they said the same about me....and i never even heard if him.

Never mind

The truth is I have never read one single solitary written word scripted by Darby. Nor this mythical cabal known as Jesuits.

"Darby and the Jesuits" are the post-tribbers boogermen/strawmen. When their errant doctrine inevitably breaks down under scrutiny and fails them they inevitably hide behind these names and characters.

The fact is post-trib is the result of amateur level bush league Bible scholarship. That's a fact jack.

 

[Absolutely]

Dispensationalists are in a world of their own. Big thing is that they read the Bible entirely different which, in my opinion, makes them difficult to reach. That's how they're able to forego the plain text reading of scripture to make it mean something else entirely than what is plainly said.

The issue is they end up thinking the Bible says something it doesn't actually say, but after extensive processing and digestion of scripture they produce doctrines unrecognizable as sound, coherent, theology. It isn't just the pre-trib rapture, there are many many many other incorrect precedents and thought processes they utilize to distort plain truths in scripture.

(I think I've met one dispensationalist who is a post-tribber, but as far as I can tell it's rare)

When you do your wide sweeping declarations, maybe include one example with merit?

So we are just wrong by showing up, or is there a specific item off the top of your head?

If we are so wrong you must have several items to correct us in

 

[cv5]

Mat 25: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The order that Jesus tells us is that the reward is given when He comes in Glory.

Not 10 years before or 1000 years after.

Please explain to us the audience that Jesus is addressing and judging, and it's location. Furthermore how this correlates to the 70th week of Daniel. And God's covenants as they relate to David and Abraham.

Last question: are any Christians in the audience at this point?

 

[soberxp]

I think it was ewq a few pages back that posted " he has come".

2 thes theme

Some thought he had come.

Delusion

yes, the Bible says everyone will see him.
but, if return of Jesus everyone see him ,then why Matthew 24:44 Luke 12:40

John
Chapter 20
29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


What we need to do now is to prepare for Lord，
Not to argue about the meaningless doctrine of men.

only hold the Bible


https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-second-coming-of-jesus.193968/

 

[Runningman]

When you do your wide sweeping declarations, maybe include one example with merit?

So we are just wrong by showing up, or is there a specific item off the top of your head?

If we are so wrong you must have several items to correct us in

This whole thread has been dedicated to untwisting pre-trib scriptures so start at page one and pay attention to what we've been saying.

Start with why "50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord" is 100% incorrect in a million ways.

 

[cv5]

This whole thread has been dedicated to untwisting pre-trib scriptures so start at page one and pay attention to what we've been saying.

Start with why "50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord" is 100% incorrect in a million ways.

I have yet to hear a single argument sufficiently compelling to detract from one reason or even solitary word set forth by Walvoord. But what HAS been demonstrated is the abjectly appalling biblical scholarship of the detractors. Its on display and it is an embarrassment to say the least.

TDW has mopped the floor with the opposition. It wasn't even a fair fight.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay - so 'the Birth Pang' and 'the birth pangs' are two completely different things.
The birth pangs are the series of events enumerated by Jesus which led to the destruction of Judea.

No, the point of Lk21:12 is to say that the 70ad events [following in the TEXT] PRECEDE the beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 just told of...


[and note... I do not say immediately precede them... rather, sequentially precede them]



You've got it backwards, due to taking this mis-step...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1f1) before and behind, toward, in front of, forward, formerly,
from beforetime, before

H6440 is used twice in the following verse... note the sense of the 2nd occurrence in this verse:

Genesis 27:7 -

Berean Study Bible
‘Bring me some game and prepare me a tasty dish to eat, so that I may bless you in the presence of [H6440] the LORD before [H6440] I die.’

King James Bible
Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before [H6440] the LORD before [H6440] my death.



Now, in your post you'd said Joel 2:31 can read "...WHEN the great and terrible day of the Lord come," but I disagree, and take rather the meaning quoted above ^ (in your listing ^ ), in the same sense that the 2nd occurrence of this word means in Gen37:7 (beforehand / before Isaac dies)... Gen35:27-29 later tells of Isaac's death (and his "blessing" had occurred "beforehand" rather than "WHEN" he died).


[same sense as in Gen29:26, and 30:30]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... and this is made doubly clear by the preceding text in Gen37 (several verses prior to 37:7's 2x using this word), where in verse 2, Isaac says,

1 And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his eldest son, and said unto him, My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I.

2 And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death:



[...it's almost as if the Holy Spirit knew this question would arise... = ) ]

 

[FreeGrace2]

I mean here regarding an imperishable body. i understand redemption to mean Jesus buying us back our original plot - our eternal bodies

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

OK, thanks. The redemption of our body would be the resurrection or rapture of our bodies. When we receive our imperishable body.

Is that what you are asking?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I never discussed anything whatsoever about blood.

This doesn't make sense. If it wasn't you, then who did claim that there is no blood in heaven, or that Jesus' body has no blood??

I asked what metabolic processes did Jesus use to pass through walls.

Are you suggesting that He somehow digested the wall He passed through. Frankly, I have no idea. But neither does anyone else. So your question is moot. Why would anyone ASSUME Jesus relied on metabolic processes to pass through walls? That doesn't even make sense.

Now I'm asking what bathroom did Jesus use the one in heaven or the one on earth?

I'm afraid you've gone off the rails now. You questions just keep getting weirder and weirder.

My questions are of course absurd because your position is absurd and apallingly ignorant.

Oh, I see. If you can't beat 'em you will join 'em.

OK, explain, if you can, how my position is "absurd and apallingly ignorant". Remember, it's YOU who have been asking the weirder and weirder questions, not me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

OldSage said:
Lol...so hard to take you seriously

That's your problem not mine. You should earnestly desire to know what I know.

No, the problem is yours. He asked a direct question and you blew it off completely. So how can he know what you know? You won't tell him, even when he asked.

This is what you said:
"Misapprehension of Luke 21 is the cause of massive eschatological error. It actually gives birth to brazen heresies in my opinion."

So he asked:
"Such as?"

And your flippant answer:
"Such as those being supported on this thread." Such a vague and useless answer does no one any good.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Dispensationalists are in a world of their own. Big thing is that they read the Bible entirely different which, in my opinion, makes them difficult to reach. That's how they're able to forego the plain text reading of scripture to make it mean something else entirely than what is plainly said.

Full disclosure here. I am a dispensationalist.

(I think I've met one dispensationalist who is a post-tribber, but as far as I can tell it's rare)

Go ahead and test me on any other doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The fact is post-trib is the result of amateur level bush league Bible scholarship. That's a fact jack.

Talk is cheap, as shown here.

Where is your silver bullet? You know, the verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven after all the changing?

Your gun is empty. Your gun belt is empty. You have no ammo. What you do "fire" is akin to blanks. Lots of noise, but no effect.

Since the Bible is TOTALLY SILENT on the idea of Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven, why in the world would you believe such a thing?

Maybe you could just give your best evidence for it.

But remember, before Walvoord could get into the first "reason the pretrib rapture is true" article, he shot himself in the foot (or maybe it was his head) by defining the 'rapture' as:

"While the words rapture and translation are not quite identical, they refer to the same event. By the term rapture, reference is made to the fact that the church is “caught up” from the earth and taken to heaven."

He acknowledges that "caught up" means "rapture" when the ONLY 2 verses that mention being "gathered together to Him" are post trib events. And he says they are taken to heaven. All without any evidence.

I would have expected by now that those who read the whole article would have quoted the verses that support his claim about raptured believers being taken to heaven.

But, lo and behold, no one has come forth and shared any such verse.

And that would be the ONLY WAY to prove that raptured believers are taken to heaven. A verse that says so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Runningman said:
Dispensationalists are in a world of their own. Big thing is that they read the Bible entirely different which, in my opinion, makes them difficult to reach. That's how they're able to forego the plain text reading of scripture to make it mean something else entirely than what is plainly said.

When you do your wide sweeping declarations, maybe include one example with merit?

So we are just wrong by showing up, or is there a specific item off the top of your head?

If we are so wrong you must have several items to correct us in

You could actually read all of Walvoord's article in the OP and then quote any verse he said proved that raptured believers are "taken to heaven", since he said ""While the words rapture and translation are not quite identical, they refer to the same event. By the term rapture, reference is made to the fact that the church is “caught up” from the earth and taken to heaven.".

That would be a start AND finish of this discussion. It just takes ONE verse that says that the raptured are taken to heaven.

If Walvoord said it, it must be true. Right? So, read his article and quote the verse that he quoted that proves his claim.

That's all there is to it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have yet to hear a single argument sufficiently compelling to detract from one reason or even solitary word set forth by Walvoord.

It only takes eyes to see and ears to hear. But you don't possess them. 2 Thess 2:1-3 refutes a pretrib rapture completely.

But what HAS been demonstrated is the abjectly appalling biblical scholarship of the detractors. Its on display and it is an embarrassment to say the least.

What really is appalling biblical scholarship is making claims that the Bible is TOTALLY SILENT about.

TDW has mopped the floor with the opposition. It wasn't even a fair fight.

Cleverness with words mean nothing. A single verse that tells us that raptured believers are taken to heaven is GOLD.

So, where did you hide your gold?