50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Oct 23, 2020
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Nope. The dead in Christ receive new bodies that are in heaven rather than have their old bodies changed.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.
The Resurrection of the Dead is a central pillar of Christianity.
If you have not studied it properly I suggest you take time out, lest you fall
further into heresy.

So to recap:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 ..............and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Corinthians 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


Paul is telling us that all are resurrected, good and bad.

John 5 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This stands to reason - whatever form an eternal punishment takes, it can only be eternal if we are eternal.

Our resurrected bodies are our present bodies, except eternal. Pure and simple.
We are raised from the dead because we are raised up from the earth, from a place of decay,
to a place without decay. To argue otherwise is gross heresy, and belies Christ's victory over death.


Regarding 2 Corinthians 5, which you have tripped up on.

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


What Paul is saying is that our physical bodies are fashioned after an eternal body, [we are made in God's eternal image],
so that even if our physical body could be destroyed, the eternal body remains in heaven.
But this is why he uses the passive aorist subjunctive here, it is to show that this is actually a hypothetical idea, as our physical bodies simply cannot be dissolved/demolished, as our physical body cannot be detached from our eternal body.

Regarding the mechanics of God raising up dust, dead bones, etc back to its living state, that is simply what God can do.
And the overall point Paul is making here is that our physical bodies were designed originally to be eternal.
That is to say, the ultimate goal of God is for us to be in eternal physical bodies.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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yea, I guess we all pick and choose when we want to apply a principle! ;)
My point to the other poster was about spiritualizing Scripture, which is basically just making stuff up to prove what you believe.

For example, Matt 25 has a parable about 10 virgins and a wedding. The poster spiritualizes the parable into "proving" a pretrib rapture.

iow, spiritualizers equate what Scripture mentions to mean something totally unrelated to the text itself.

I've always been interested in WHY people believe what they believe. So I'm always looking for Scripture that actually says what they claim/believe to see if they have actual support for their belief.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
you've proven nothing. v.16 sinks your boat.
lol, no it sinks yours. It shows the resurrection happening right after Christ leaves heaven.
I've already explained how your claim isn't true, and repeating your claim won't ever make it true.

They haven't left heaven yet when the resurrection happens and certainly aren't in the clouds yet.
And just where do you read that, other than in your posts!
 
Jun 28, 2021
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We live now in the day of judgment
we are paying off our debt
all will be perfect in God's plan
for His plan is perfect
the leaf of a tree does not move apart from Gods will
God's will is to save all
He is not willing to lose one
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Rev 20:5 states that the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousands years were complete and that these are those not included in the 'first resurrection.'
Correct. These "dead" are all unbelievers who have died up to the time of the first resurrection of believers only.

Previously, Rev 20:3 stated that the dragon who, according to Heb 2:14, had the power of death, is bound a thousand years, and after that, he must be released for a short time. And, sandwiched between Rev 20: 3 & 5, is Rev 20:4's statement that the souls of those beheaded and who had not received the mark coming to life and reigning with Christ for a thousand years.
Sandwiched? No, it's just part of the whole context. And explains WHEN the first resurrection occurs; when Christ returns.

So then, when the thousand years are complete, the rest of the dead come to life, and the dragon is released for a short time, although not necessarily in that order. I think these very well likely could be those gathered for battle, as I'm not convinced anyone will die while Satan is bound, i.e. unless he is, indeed by Christ who holds the keys to death and hades, accursed as per Isaiah 65's context, it seems to me, is expressed with hyperbolic literary device such as an infant dying a hundred years old, is of a new heaven and new earth wherein Rev 21:1 is footnoted.
Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
Rev 20:7 - When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

v.5 doesn't mean they join Satan in the battle of Gog and Magog when he is released. It simply means they will be brought to the GWT judgment per 20:11-15.

At the end of the 1,000 year reign, or near end, Satan is releasted and he goes out and deceives the nations once more.
20:8 - and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

For those who think mortal believers will enter the Millennium have a problem explaining v.8 and the fact that there will be a world wide rebellion against Christ.

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

These verses show how the rebellion ends. And what immediately follows is the GWT judgment (second resurrection from 20:5).

I welcome any constructive criticism of this view that it might help me to either strengthen or discard my position to rubble, but I'm just about sure it is solid structurally.
You have a more healthy attitude than many posters. I too am persuaded by clear Scripture. Unfortunately, many posters simply ignore the verses that very plainly refute them.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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We live now in the day of judgment
we are paying off our debt
No, Jesus Christ paid the sin debt. We don't pay anything.

all will be perfect in God's plan
for His plan is perfect
the leaf of a tree does not move apart from Gods will
God's will is to save all
He is not willing to lose one
Are you a universalist? Do you believe that all humanity will be with God for eternity?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I noticed that the root for the word "left" is also translated as "forgiven" so, no one may use Matthew 24 taken/left verses as proof text simply by adding the words "up," "down," "away," "behind," or "from" henceforth. :cool:
Interesting. I looked it up and you're not wrong about the the word left being able to be translated as forgiven. It actually seems to have various applications as evidenced by the numerous verses it is used in.

See Matt. 24:40, Romans 4:7, Hebrews 2:8, and Revelation 11:9 as some examples of various applications.

I think the Matthew 24 "one taken, another left" verses refer to the harvest of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. The angels are the reapers, the earth is the field, the wheat and tares are people.
 
Jun 28, 2021
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God never lies
God's will is to save ALL
God is not willing to lose one
i myself believe Him
because He lives in every heart
when all peoples ALL know and live in love of one another as He told us
The Spirit of God dwells in every man
when He is done all will be seated at the table not one missing
 
Jun 28, 2021
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No, Jesus Christ paid the sin debt. We don't pay anything.


Are you a universalist? Do you believe that all humanity will be with God for eternity?
God is in every one God can never lose
You should get to know him by listening to your own spirit
the rein of Christ is in your spirit
in all soon
He is your teacher for eternity
Ask in prayer in and with your spirit
not your lips
and God him self will answer
 
Jun 28, 2021
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God is in every one God can never lose
You should get to know him by listening to your own spirit
the rein of Christ is in your spirit
in all soon
He is your teacher for eternity
Ask in prayer in and with your spirit
not your lips
and God him self will answer
 
Mar 4, 2020
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God never lies
God's will is to save ALL
God is not willing to lose one
i myself believe Him
because He lives in every heart
when all peoples ALL know and live in love of one another as He told us
The Spirit of God dwells in every man
when He is done all will be seated at the table not one missing
More specifically, Jesus will lose none of those who have been given to Him. There are some dependent clauses here.

John 6:39-40
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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God never lies
God's will is to save ALL
Yes. 1 Tim 2:4 says that.

God is not willing to lose one
i myself believe Him
because He lives in every heart[/QUOTE]
Do you think that God lives in the heart of every human? What verse informs you of this?

when all peoples ALL know and live in love of one another as He told us
The Spirit of God dwells in every man
when He is done all will be seated at the table not one missing
Again, are you a universalist?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Are you a universalist? Can you answer this question?

God can never lose
Right. He will never lose those who He saves. But the Bible is clear that He doesn't save everyone.

Please read Rev 20:11-15.

You should get to know him by listening to your own spirit
This is antibiblical. Please tell me how a person receives the gift of eternal life. This will help me understand what you know about the Bible.

the rein of Christ is in your spirit
in all soon
He is your teacher for eternity
Ask in prayer in and with your spirit
not your lips
and God him self will answer
This reflects some serious errors in your thinking. There is no Scripture given that supports anything you say. That is because there isn't any that support your claims.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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[QUOTE="FreeGrace2, post: 4590590, member: [/QUOTE]
Again, are you a universalist?[/QUOTE]



Or better yet, is he under the false assumption the "one taken/left" is the made up notion that wicked are taken and righteous left behind?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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God never lies
God's will is to save ALL
God is not willing to lose one
i myself believe Him
because He lives in every heart
when all peoples ALL know and live in love of one another as He told us
The Spirit of God dwells in every man
when He is done all will be seated at the table not one missing
Eventually

There are several gatherings.

Apparently the Jews come last in rev 14.

Several gatherings eventually seat all invited.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
We live now in the day of judgment
we are paying off our debt
all will be perfect in God's plan
for His plan is perfect
the leaf of a tree does not move apart from Gods will
God's will is to save all
He is not willing to lose one
another roving false prophet type

said in another thread we need to follow Elijah

Jesus? maybe not so much

exercise your discernment folks. if it does not line up with the word, it is NOT THE WORD
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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another roving false prophet type

said in another thread we need to follow Elijah

Jesus? maybe not so much

exercise your discernment folks. if it does not line up with the word, it is NOT THE WORD
But a good readers digest article.

It could be titled " nice thoughts about God"