50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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BenjaminN

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Oct 7, 2020
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Jesus was expounding on the 70th week of Daniel. The audience is the same as Daniels audience. The nation Israel.....
By Jesus own command the words and actions He brought is for the whole world, Jew and Gentile alike:

Acts 1 (NKJV)

8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [c]witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
 

BenjaminN

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Oct 7, 2020
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Ezekiel 37 is not referring to a "physical / bodily resurrection from the dead," but rather Israel (still-living) coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered (see vv.11,12-14,20-23)... just as in other related passages: Hosea 5:14-6:3; Isa26:15-21; Rom11:15[25,27]; Dan12:1-4,10; Jn6:39 [distinct from v.40]; etc...

They will be coming to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") and will be the ones carrying forth the message of "INVITATION TO" the earthly MK age, seen in Matt24:14/26:13 (etc...); They'll be "gathered" into one place upon the earth (Jerusalem) at the time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth, per Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13[/Rom11:27 / Dan9:24b/ etc]... meaning, the believing remnant of Israel (not those who do not come to faith prior to that point--AFTER that point [His "RETURN" to the earth] is TOO LATE)
The Davidic Messiah (Jesus) is present on earth in Ezekiel 37, and 1 Thess 4:16-18 for instance, tells us that when Jesus the Messiah returns to this earth, it accompanies the resurrection of the dead.

You can not have a restored Israel without Jesus (the Davidic Messiah present on earth in Ezekiel 37).
 

BenjaminN

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Oct 7, 2020
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The abomination of desolation. Daniel chapter 9. Israel and the temple.
The temple in Israel will have world wide effect. Read 2 Thess 2: 1-4 how the antichrist enters the Israeli temple and demand worship from the whole wide world, before the rapture will happen.

2 Thessalonians 2 (NKJV)

1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
 

BenjaminN

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Oct 7, 2020
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The 70th week tribulation IS the wrath of God. That specific term describes this period 11 times in the book of Revelation. Your continual denials are deeply concerning....
Tribulations = tribulation
Wrath of God = wrath of God
Tribulation ≠ Wrath of God

Christian's do not face the wrath of God, but Christians do face tribulations, and will face the great tribulation:

Acts 14 (NKJV)

22strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Pretribbers are FORCED to say and believe this since the 'gathering' which is the rapture follows the Trib.
Nonsense. We understand perfectly well Daniels prophecy as it relates to Matthew 24.
You however do not....
OK then. What do "coming of our Lord" and "gathering to Him" mean in 2 Thess 2:1 if NOT the Second Coming and rapture??

Please explain.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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The Davidic Messiah (Jesus) is present on earth in Ezekiel 37, [...]

You can not have a restored Israel without Jesus (the Davidic Messiah present on earth in Ezekiel 37).
Ezekiel 37 presents something like what is described as taking place in "stages"...

...and this chapter has God saying "I WILL" in something like 11 verses: vv.5,6,12,13,14,19,21,22,23,26,27... (see "I / ego [G1473]" in the LXX, for example)... iow, it seems to be prophetic in nature, in that it is telling what His "I WILL" will do ;)
 
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Seems more like you just want ARGUE, than a discussion to me.

Also, I totally disagree with your opening statement. It has EVERYTHING to do with whether or not you are truly Born again.
But there is another Explanation. I read some of your Posts and find you disagreeing with TOO much of what I know is Mainline Christianity hear in the USA. It is almost like I am talking to a Mormon, where I am forced to ask you for a Definition of your terms. I hope you know there but they use the same terms as we do, but they almost have a different meaning to every term.

You did a pretty good job of explaining Born Again, WHICH SURPRISED ME. But I would have gone a step further.
I would have explained that genuine Mourning over your SINFUL life style is part of genuine Repentence.
I would have also explained that you need to surrender to HIM, out of Agape LOVE, as Lord of your Life,
I would have explained that Genuine FAITH, which is not in the human Brain, but IN THE HEART.
Well, same to you. It really isn't your place to be judging God's servants, but since you want to know I will gladly give you answers to your questions about me.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Do you have a real sense of in your Spirit in the heart, is a thinking part of yourself, that is Intune with the will of GOD ? ? ?

Oh is it all just a product of your human Brain ? ? ?

I Mentioned another Possibly explanation. That is you could be under the influence of a False Teacher.
1. Yes, I have real convictions in my spirit about sin and righteousness.

2. You may recall that the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but the power of God to those who believe.

In other words, head knowledge of the crucifixion of Christ, raising from the dead, and ascending to heaven is not something a natural person can accept. Why? Because no one has ever witnessed it. This is hard to accept unless God sends His Spirit to help. If you have faith in the message of the cross, real genuine faith, it's evidence of a born again spirit. It's a miracle.

3. Ditto. You could also be under the influence of a false teacher. In fact, I would say that's highly likely because you're not able to see a post-trib rapture in the Bible even when it is shown to you.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
Pretribbers are FORCED to say and believe this since the 'gathering' which is the rapture follows the Trib.

OK then. What do "coming of our Lord" and "gathering to Him" mean in 2 Thess 2:1 if NOT the Second Coming and rapture??

Please explain.
It explains the Rapture. Nothing more. Conflating it with the Second Advent is error.
The Church is ONE and DONE. Starts at Pentecost ends at the Rapture.
The Rapture is a necessary prerequisite for the unveiling of the man of sin which kicks off the 70th week.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I thought this video was great......

Listened for 10+ minutes, about the point where he cited the trumpet call of God as a proof for a pre-tribulation rapture.

Jesus confirms there will be a trumpet call of God when He returns, except it isn't in the pre-tribulation period. It's post-tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Immediately after the tribulation...they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven...with a great sound of a trumpet..."

He may have passion, but he's preaching a false message.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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All this time spent obsessing about the rapture could’ve been spent obsessing about the glory and greatness of Jesus Christ, our Savior. Don’t get distracted
When i see this i know the bride/ groom ingredient is absent.

I view all end times through that apex.
The bible ends in that apex
 
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Ruby123

Guest
Listened for 10+ minutes, about the point where he cited the trumpet call of God as a proof for a pre-tribulation rapture.

Jesus confirms there will be a trumpet call of God when He returns, except it isn't in the pre-tribulation period. It's post-tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Immediately after the tribulation...they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven...with a great sound of a trumpet..."

He may have passion, but he's preaching a false message.
It's a shame because the first part of the video was not so great but then when he got into the wedding part which may have been half way through and the last part of the video was great. Shame you didn't watch the whole thing.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Obviously the rapture/gathering of the saints happens AFTER the Great Tribulation has ended. How can a pretribber not see this?
It says after the 7 year trib saints are gathered from heaven.?

I fail to see the rapture in that.

Because it is not the rapture.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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It's a shame because the first part of the video was not so great but then when he got into the wedding part which may have been half way through and the last part of the video was great. Shame you didn't watch the whole thing.
He probably would not be swayed.
Postrib teachers never go to those bible dynamics.
They are trib and ac centered.
Looking for and waiting for them not Jesus.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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It's a shame because the first part of the video was not so great but then when he got into the wedding part which may have been half way through and the last part of the video was great. Shame you didn't watch the whole thing.
Second alleged proof, 14+ minutes into the sermon, "we shall be caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17) happens after the trump of God. Again, Jesus says He returns with the trump of God (Matthew 24:29-31) which makes this being "caught up" post-trib.

His entire sermon is built on a house of cards. The house of cards fell prior to a quarter of the way through the sermon, yet he just keeps talking. Just waiting for a pew warmer to stand up, interrupt his sermon, and rebuke his false doctrine. I won't hold my breath.
 
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Ruby123

Guest
Second alleged proof, 14+ minutes into the sermon, "we shall be caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17) happens after the trump of God. Again, Jesus says He returns with the trump of God (Matthew 24:29-31) which makes this being "caught up" post-trib.

His entire sermon is built on a house of cards. The house of cards fell prior to a quarter of the way through the sermon, yet he just keeps talking. Just waiting for a pew warmer to stand up, interrupt his sermon, and rebuke his false doctrine. I won't hold my breath.
ok then. I can see that everyone is very set in their ways and I don't see the point in arguing.
Anyway the video is there for anyone who wishes to view it :)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Second alleged proof, 14+ minutes into the sermon, "we shall be caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17) happens after the trump of God. Again, Jesus says He returns with the trump of God (Matthew 24:29-31) which makes this being "caught up" post-trib.

His entire sermon is built on a house of cards. The house of cards fell prior to a quarter of the way through the sermon, yet he just keeps talking. Just waiting for a pew warmer to stand up, interrupt his sermon, and rebuke his false doctrine. I won't hold my breath.
No you've got that all wrong. The post tribulation gathering trumpet is for Israelites only.

As TDW has stated endlessly time and time again, see Isaiah 27:12 "Ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel".

Post tribbers ALWAYS FAIL understand the distinction between the Church and Israel. What's hidden behind that is kicking Israel to the curb and stealth replacement theology. And that's why I think post-trib is ultimately heretical. It's a tacit denial of the place of Israel in Gods eternal kingdom.

Furthermore the church is raptured instantaneously all at once as one body. On the other hand in Matthew 24:31 has a multitude of angels gathering Israelites only INDIVIDUALLY......over a span of time. The Church is nowhere to be found in Matthew 24...
 
Mar 4, 2020
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No you've got that all wrong. The post tribulation gathering trumpet is for Israelites only.

As TDW has stated endlessly time and time again, see Isaiah 27:12 "Ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel".

Post tribbers ALWAYS FAIL understand the distinction between the Church and Israel. What's hidden behind that is kicking Israel to the curb and stealth replacement theology. And that's why I think post-trib is ultimately heretical. It's a tacit denial of the place of Israel in Gods eternal kingdom.

Furthermore the church is raptured instantaneously all at once as one body. On the other hand in Matthew 24:31 has a multitude of angels gathering Israelites only INDIVIDUALLY......over a span of time. The Church is nowhere to be found in Matthew 24...
That's heretical cv5.

In order to exclude the church from Matthew 24, you would need to demote the church to non-elect status. Do you want to do that?