50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Truth7t7

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He used the word apostasia in the verses you cited with "departure." It literally means a defection from a truth once held.

He's definitely talking about Christians becoming apostates via abandonment of the faith or turning aside to myths or fables. It has nothing to do with the rapture.

1 Timothy 4:1 recognizes and validates the prophecy of some departing from the faith in latter days;

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Furthermore, the scripture has to mesh because we're under the firmly-held belief it is the divinely-inspired and inerrant word of God.

Therefore there cannot be contradictions to scripture: believing the church departs in a rapture before the apostasy of the church and man of sin is revealed contradicts the verse in question and the whole body of scriptures.

Matthew 24:29-31 says that immediately after the tribulation of those days He will return with His angels to gather His elect. Case closed. The rapture has always been post-tribulation.
(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

2 Timothy 3:7-9KJV
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah;
feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The verses were talking about say they were troubled that the apostasy and man of sin had arrived because they clearly understood that would have meant the great tribulation is happening.
The TEXT in v.2 says "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (i.e. ALREADY IN PLAY)


THEN Paul goes on TO EXPLAIN *why* that is NOT SO, and he does this by his speaking of TWO ISSUES (that WILL BE the case when it indeed "IS PRESENT"):


--"THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*" (which would have been "in evidence"/"evidenced"... and it WASN'T); AND

--"and [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED" (and he WASN'T!)



Paul is telling them WHY that "false info from the false conveyors [saying 'the day of the Lord IS PRESENT']" IS in fact NOT SO!


But it is PAUL who is BRINGING certain corrective info TO [or even, again TO] THE MINDS OF the Thessalonians [i.e. TO their distraught minds, which had INSTEAD been ON the thing that v.2 states... i.e. that which the false conveyors [the deceptive thing they]were saying)...

IOW, he is supplying this CORRECTIVE INFO by means of the SEQUENCE matter he lays out (3x in this context).
 

Runningman

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Watermark has intentionally given disregard to the question below, posted 3 times, of course this poster also falsely believes and teaches a pre-trib rapture is seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means

Direct Question To DivineWatermark, Yes or No?

Do you believe (Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven?
I noticed you keep asking but they are not answering. I think it's a valid question.
 

Truth7t7

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He used the word apostasia in the verses you cited with "departure." It literally means a defection from a truth once held.

He's definitely talking about Christians becoming apostates via abandonment of the faith or turning aside to myths or fables. It has nothing to do with the rapture.

1 Timothy 4:1 recognizes and validates the prophecy of some departing from the faith in latter days;

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Furthermore, the scripture has to mesh because we're under the firmly-held belief it is the divinely-inspired and inerrant word of God.

Therefore there cannot be contradictions to scripture: believing the church departs in a rapture before the apostasy of the church and man of sin is revealed contradicts the verse in question and the whole body of scriptures.

Matthew 24:29-31 says that immediately after the tribulation of those days He will return with His angels to gather His elect. Case closed. The rapture has always been post-tribulation.
I Agree 100%

(Apostasia) was used 2 places in the scripture, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Falling Away) and Acts 21:21 (Forsake)

Yes both examples are turning away from a belief, as seen below, teaching the gentiles to (Forsake) turn away from the teachings of Moses

Dont let the evil one hide this truth, with false claims of another meaning, its straight forward.

Acts 21:21KJV
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I noticed you keep asking but they are not answering. I think it's a valid question.
I ALREADY answered that.

Please GO BACK and thoroughly READ about the GRAMMAR / VOCABULARY / TEXT issues covered in great detail in that post, and you will (again) have your answer to this question y'all keep posing, but which has been answered abundant times:


Can you read it? (<--I'm beginning to think NOT! :oops: ) - AT Post #310 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533045



Please don't breeze past it, but CAREFULLY CONSIDER what all is being explained in that posting. ;)

[wherever you have any issue/problem, in that post, please address it HERE, and I'm happy to DISCUSS!!!]
 

Truth7t7

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I noticed you keep asking but they are not answering. I think it's a valid question.
Yes the poster won't openly state his/her position, after several attempts, no response (Silence)

Direct Question To DivineWatermark, Yes or No?

Do you believe (Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven?
 

Truth7t7

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I ALREADY answered that.

Please GO BACK and thoroughly READ about the GRAMMAR / VOCABULARY / TEXT issues covered in detail in that post, and you will (again) have your answer to this question y'all keep posing, but which has been answered abundant times:


Can you read it? - AT Post #310 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533045



Please don't breeze past it, but CAREFULLY CONSIDER what all is being explained in that posting. ;)
Please direct the forum posters to your claim you already answer the question below, or directly answered it with a simple YES/NO

Direct Question To DivineWatermark, Yes or No?

Do you believe (Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means
Paul is saying this ^ because of the issue stated in v.2... "[those purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"


It WASN'T. And Paul explains WHY.

When it WILL be present (and if it were the case that it WAS, back in their day), TWO THINGS will be / would have been IN EVIDENCE:

--"THE Departure *FIRST*" (ONE THING *FIRST*--and it hadn't taken place!); AND

--"and [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED" (and he HADN'T been... but whenever HE WILL BE, THEN "the day of the Lord" WILL INDEED *BE PRESENT*!)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ ANSWERED THAT in my Post #310 (in plain, easy-to-read FORMATTING, even! No bells or whistles! As you like it!)... read it... if you can.


[not to mention, I already answered that in NUMEROUS OTHER POSTS... the ones YOU YOURSELF HAVE said you WILL NOT READ--As you wish! ;) ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I noticed you keep asking but they are not answering. I think it's a valid question.
I ALSO addressed that question by means of linking an old post of mine, in Post #571 of this thread, not long ago... PLEASE READ these things... My ANSWER is THERE (already supplied this answer NUMEROUS TIMES).

Why are you saying I (or we) are AVOIDING answering. That simply is NOT SO!

Post #571 - see the LINK to my other POST (addressing this point) which I supplied there - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534597
 

cv5

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Strong's G646 - apostasia - 'feminine of the same as G647 [apostasion]'

[so then...]

Strong's G647 - apostasion [masculine] - 'Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of aphistemi [*G868]; properly, something separative...'




[Strong's *G868 - 'From apo and histemi; to remove ]


Not brain surgery, people. ;)
YES...
Regarding 2 Thess 2....

Verse 1 says that we Christians shall certainly and inevitably be GATHERED unto the Lord,
and yet people cannot comprehend that v.3 DOES NOT CONTRADICT v.1....no.

Verse 3 is dealing with a completely different matter.......a SEPARATION. And then the verse goes on and makes perfectly clear that it is a separation from the TIME of the ADVENT of the man of sin. And going on to compare this with other Scriptures it is evident that it is the RISE of this man of sin that initiates the Daniel ch 9 final week (of years) of tribulation ON THE EARTH.

It's all there folks. May God open your eyes your hearts to comprehend the truth.
 

Truth7t7

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^ ANSWERED THAT in my Post #310 (in plain, easy-to-read FORMATTING, even! No bells or whistles! As you like it!)... read it... if you can.


[not to mention, I already answered that in NUMEROUS OTHER POSTS... the ones YOU YOURSELF HAVE said you WILL NOT READ--As you wish! ;) ]
Your claim is false, you posted an article of Kenneth S Wuest as seen below, you have not stated your position in post #310

Quote TheDivineWatermark:

[Kenneth S. Wuest is a member of the Faculty of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, and author of numerous books on New Testament Greek.]"

"The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest
 

Truth7t7

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I ALSO addressed that question by means of linking an old post of mine, in Post #571 of this thread, not long ago... PLEASE READ these things... My ANSWER is THERE (already supplied this answer NUMEROUS TIMES).

Why are you saying I (or we) are AVOIDING answering. That simply is NOT SO!

Post #571 - see the LINK to my other POST (addressing this point) which I supplied there - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534597
You didnt state your position in post #571 as you continue to run from the (Direct Question) playing games

Direct Question To DivineWatermark, Yes or No?

Do you believe (Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ I've addressed that very issue THROUGHOUT this very thread. You'll find my answers [/answer to THAT QUESTION] therein. My posts on it are ABUNDANT.
 

Truth7t7

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^ I've addressed that very issue THROUGHOUT this very thread. You'll find my answers [/answer to THAT QUESTION] therein. My posts on it are ABUNDANT.
Your claim is false until proven otherwise, I have been unable to find your direct position on the question below, as you play games running from a simple "direct answer" :giggle:

Direct Question To DivineWatermark, Yes or No?

Do you believe (Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ ... everything in those numbered posts I just supplied, is the SAME THING I HAVE SAID... numerous times throughout my postings! (which you've admitted you skip past and DON'T READ--Sorry about your unwillingness to do so, but I am not going to do what you can DO FOR YOURSELF by READING WHAT I've already put! ;) )
 

TheDivineWatermark

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YES...
Regarding 2 Thess 2....

Verse 1 says that we Christians shall certainly and inevitably be GATHERED unto the Lord,
and yet people cannot comprehend that v.3 DOES NOT CONTRADICT v.1....no.

Verse 3 is dealing with a completely different matter.......a SEPARATION. And then the verse goes on and makes perfectly clear that it is a separation from the TIME of the ADVENT of the man of sin. And going on to compare this with other Scriptures it is evident that it is the RISE of this man of sin that initiates the Daniel ch 9 final week (of years) of tribulation ON THE EARTH.

It's all there folks. May God open your eyes your hearts to comprehend the truth.
Right!

Verse 1's Subject is regarding "our episynagoges [noun-event] UNTO HIM" (i.e. "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]");

Verse 2's Subject is [NOT ^THAT^ ],...rather, Paul telling them not to believe anyone "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"

(which is an EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD... completely DISTINCT from what v.1's Subject is;
and Paul goes on, in v.3, to tell HOW the ONE THING "FITS" in relation TIME-WISE / SEQUENCE-WISE to the OTHER!
"ONE THING *FIRST*!!)
 

Truth7t7

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^ ... everything in those numbered posts I just supplied, is the SAME THING I HAVE SAID... numerous times throughout my postings! (which you've admitted you skip past and DON'T READ--Sorry about your unwillingness to do so, but I am not going to do what you can DO FOR YOURSELF by READING WHAT I've already put! ;) )
After "Several Attempts" you refuse to answer the simple direct question below with a Yes/No, it will be my opinion you believe and teach that the KJV (Falling Away) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, which is (False)

Direct Question Unanswered By DivineWatermark, With A Simple Yes or No?

Do you believe (Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven?

(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah;
feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;