50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Truth7t7]

If you would start in Vers 5 you would find that Jesus spoke to the jews and that what will come in Future for Israel and the world.
There was no Christian church in this time.
So how he should speak to the jews about the Christian Church?

You claim of exclusively Jews is a typical diversion of those promoting a pre-trib rapture that is (False)

The audience were followers of Jesus Christ, the (Church)

(Ye Shall Be Hated Of All Men For My Names Sake)

Christian persecution, the church, where there is neither Jew nor Greek

Luke 21:17-20KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

As is clearly seen, the followers of Jesus Christ aren't classified on ethnic race or gender as you falsely claim

Galatians 3:27-28KJV
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Aidan1]

You claim of exclusively Jews is a typical diversion of those promoting a pre-trib rapture that is (False)

The audience were followers of Jesus Christ, the (Church)

(Ye Shall Be Hated Of All Men For My Names Sake)

Christian persecution, the church, where there is neither Jew nor Greek

Luke 21:17-20KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

As is clearly seen, the followers of Jesus Christ aren't classified on ethnic race or gender as you falsely claim

Galatians 3:27-28KJV
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Well, till the time of Acts 10, the Gospel was told to jews and samaritians( acts 8)
So what Jesus said is of course for his followers. But a least till acts 10 there was only jews and samaritians the follower of Jesus and faced persecution, even from a man named Saulus.
It is not the first time that prophets talking about an content which is a timely near as well an timely far Event. Like Joel 2, it was only Party fulfilled in acts 2, but the fulfillment (including the context) has not happend till now.
Well we will not solve our differences in this regard, because we have a different hermeneutic.
So we have simply to wait and see what will come. Either you will with me expierience the rapture, ore I will enter with you the tribulation time. ( if we not going before to the Lord)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Since we are already in the GT period, 'pre-trib' (anything) is [literally] not possible - it is already past...

Just because you have no idea of the meaning of the Great Tribulation does not mean that it has arrived. So if the GT is already past, we should all be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Of course, that's total nonsense.

 

[Kolistus]

Pre-trib rapture was already debunked on the first page of this thre


Arguing for a pre-trib rapture undermines what the Bible actually says about the return of Christ.

There's no anti-Christ and false prophet in the temple after Jesus returns because the wicked get destroyed by the brightness of His coming exactly like scriptures states.

You're basically saying Christ comes to save the church then returns again later to execute wrath on the wicked.

Pre-trib rapture has to invent multiple comings of Christ to make the theology work and that's only the beginning of the numerous fatal flaws of your theology.

Did you notice the first coming has two phases to it? The Lord came, was born, died, resurrected, ascended, then came back down again and taught them for 40 days, then ascended again.

 

[GaryA]

Just because you have no idea of the meaning of the Great Tribulation does not mean that it has arrived. So if the GT is already past, we should all be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Of course, that's total nonsense.

I never said that it was past.

I have said that we are in it.

I have said that it started circa 70 A.D.

I have said that it will end at some point yet future.

I have said that the worst is yet to come.

Jesus never called it The Great Tribulation.

That is a name we give it to describe it in 'event' terms.

Jesus merely said that "there would be great tribulation"...

And, you have to look at it from the POV of God's scale and timing.

It is not referring to a short span of time (as a 7-year 'event') in the way that most people believe.

The Bible tells us when it begins - in relative terms.

The Bible tells us when it ends - in relative terms.

The Bible does not tell us the precise length of it.

If you will refer to the main chart on this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

- row 16 indicates when the GT begins.

- row 19 indicates when the GT ends.

Row 15 has already occurred - circa 70 A.D.

We are presently "in" Row 16 - the times of the gentiles.

Row 19 is yet future.

Please see also the small chart that is below the main chart for a Chronological Order listing of the 'events' in the Olivet Discourse.

(The 'events' in the Olivet Discourse are not in chronological order.)

 

[Absolutely]

50 Reasons... that's impressive.

88 reasons would have been more impressive, but hey, nobody's perfect.

I remember that dude and his book.
That was 1988

 

[Absolutely]

View attachment 226895

She says while omitting the pretrib rapture verses
Too funny

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus never called it The Great Tribulation.

That is a name we give it to describe it in 'event' terms.

Jesus merely said that "there would be great tribulation"...

Well, the definite article ('the') IS used in the Revelation 7:14 verse Revelation 7:14 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) "THE GREAT tribulation" (speaking ONLY of the SECOND HALF of it, i.e. roughly 3.5 yrs)... which we believe is speaking to the SAME time-period which Jesus spoke of in Matt24:15,21,

... where in that CONTEXT He also makes mention of "the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet (and that 'SINGULAR" is located in Daniel 12:11, where in THAT CONTEXT several verses DO speak of "how long" and the response is supplied in the text [as to its length (and parallel with other passages)], vv.6-7,1... and where v.13 says Daniel will be resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth] "at the END of the days" [at the END of the "days" referred to in that context]... and where v.12 provides yet another parallel wording corresponding to about 7-8 other passages speaking of that very Subject: about "still-living [/mortals]" saints who will ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age upon His "RETURN" to the earth, as [the] "BLESSED," ... and who will be the only ones who will have the capacity to reproduce/bear children [in / during the MK age])

 

[Absolutely]

You're saying there are two returns on Christ but no such language is implied. It just doesn't exist. That's what I meant that people circumvent or distort the truth to apply their private interpretation to scripture.

Nevertheless, here's what the Bible actually says regarding the verses you showed:

In Acts 1:11 they are standing on the Mount of Olives saying that Jesus will return the same way He left. Read verse 12 where it says they left the Mount of Olives.

Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives at a place called Bethany:

Luke 24:50-51
50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

You omitted " like manner"

But then again it is hazardous to your position.

Too bad you guys can not be forced to debate the rapture verses

Acts 1
Rev 14 held against 1 thes 4

.....and all the others.

You and postribbers WILL NOT go there.

Omitting our verses while claiming this and that is not an honest debate.

 

[Absolutely]

Do you have Jesus returning twice?

Scriptures please.

you have been shown the verses.

In fact every rapture verse is in a NON DESTROYED EARTH setting.

And rev 14 has JESUS sitting on a cloud HOLDING A SICKLE.

NEVER TOUCHES EARTH.

Now compare his 2nd coming.
ON HORSES BLACKENING THE SKY AS A WAR ARMY COMMANDER to destroy and kill.....and in fact HAS THE CHURCH WITH HIM.....ORIGINATING FROM HEAVEN.
She becomes the wife in heaven and is on horses IN HEAVEN.

But hey just ignore it.

It'l be ok
You guys will get your great hope of staying.

No problem

Skip the rapture

There is no rapture postrib

 

[Absolutely]

Postrib rapture....without omissions of the rapture references....does not exist.

Omit the rapture verses, and poooof!, a doctrine is born!!!!

 

[Absolutely]

I disagree with the (Historicist) interpretation you believe in and teach

There will be a future time of (Great Tribulation) that will begin, when a (Future) literal human man is revealed in Jerusalem, who will proclaim to be Messiah God, he will be given power for 42 months, and is identified in scripture as seen below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Daniel 7:8-11
Paul's (Man Of Sin) 2 Thess 2 3-5
John's (The Beast) Rev 13:1-5

I am with you on that .

Historicist jumps and leaps take a ton of faith.

 

[GaryA]

Just because you have no idea of the meaning of the Great Tribulation does not mean that it has arrived. So if the GT is already past, we should all be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Of course, that's total nonsense.

I'm sorry, my friend - but, it is you who do not correctly and properly understand the Great Tribulation [period]. You have fallen into the same 'trap' as most folks - having "constructed" your eschatology on things that are not biblical:

~ the 70th week of Daniel is a 'separated' 7-year span of time that is [referring to] the End Times Scenario, an antichrist individual, and a treaty between him and Israel.

(based on the severe misinterpretation of Daniel 9:24-27)

~ the Olivet Discourse is a chronological illustration of a series of 'events' contained within that 7-year span of time.

~ all Revelation prophecy is also contained within that same 7-year span of time.

I know it "hurts your pride" for someone to tell you that you are severely misinterpreting Daniel 9:24-27. Nonetheless, you are. With all of the Christian love I can muster, I implore you to reconsider your eschatology.

You are in error.

Swallow your pride and "suspend" everything you have been taught - and think you know - about eschatology. Then, prayerfully reconsider it - without allowing that which you have "suspended" (the whole idea) to interfere with your thinking or approach to interpretation of scripture.

You are going to have to "give up" the "great teachers" and their commentaries.

They are in error - and, the reason you are in error.

You must "let go" of all of that.

Just you and the Word and the Holy Spirit.

That's it. That's all. Nothing else.

 

[Absolutely]

By anyone's standard of measure that's a lot of reasons!

https://lifecoach4god.life/2013/06/...etribulational-rapture-by-dr-john-f-walvoord/

I disagree with 19 - 24.

The partial rapture is depicted in mat 25 as well as mat 24.
Then Jesus said only the worthy ones escape the trib.
Worthy believers.
He told the CHURCH to pray to be found worthy in the 7 letters of rev.
Most of the 7 letters are depicting worthy ( rewards) vs unworthyness.

 

[GaryA]

Historicist jumps and leaps take a ton of faith.

That is not true in the slightest.

The historicist view is the "smoothest most continuous" view there is - with prophecy "spread out" rather evenly across history. The other views have enormous "gaps" while all prophecy is thought to be contained in a very short period of time.

 

[Absolutely]

Technically [/biblically], the word "RETURN" is used ONLY of His Second Coming to the earth [point-in-time; Rev19]:

--Lk12:36-37 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347] (this entire/fuller CONTEXT being parallel with Matt24:43-51); and

--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" (when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with: "have thou authority over 10 CITIES" and "likewise... be thou over 5 CITIES"; this entire/fuller CONTEXT being parallel with Matt25:14-30)

These speak of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), at which He will be "VISIBLE [/MANIFEST]" (to "every eye" existing on the earth at that time)



This (His "VISIBLE" ascension, Acts 1 time-slot, some "40-days" LATER from His FIRST ascension ON "FIRSTFRUIT [/His Resurrection Day]"-Jn20:17 etc) indeed speaks regarding His "VISIBLE" RETURN to the earth (Rev19).



Pre-tribbers (such as myself) do not deny He will indeed "SO COME *in like manner* as ye [His disciples] have SEEN Him going [/traveling] into Heaven" (this speaks of His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19 [not to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point-in-time/of the chronology--when not "every eye" will SEE Him, ONLY "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will, TO WHOM "Rapture [/SNATCH UP / CAUGHT UP/-AWAY]" SOLELY pertains--i.e. ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"--And then/thereafter (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") those who will exist on the earth will be coming to TWO DISTINCT "beliefs," according to Scripture... in / during / within the future, specific, LIMITED time-period LEADING UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19 (i.e. 2Th2:10-12 is telling of ONE of those TWO DISTINCT "beliefs" ppl will be coming to, in that time-period FOLLOWING our Rapture)])

Have you actually read luke 12 ?

Please re read it.

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

That is the rapture

Jesus comes FROM THE WEDDING IN HEAVEN to fetch his bride ( the rapture) and return TO THE WEDDING IN HEAVEN.. He depicts that very thing at the last supper.

There is nothing there to form a wedding on earth doctrine.

It is in fact the opposite. Wedding and supper....IN HEAVEN.

Jesus said ;"i will not drink of the vine again untill i drink it with you in my fathers kingdom."

 

[Absolutely]

That would place the rapture mid or post tribulation since the anti-Christ has appeared before the return of Christ.

Jesus destroys the anti-Christ and his sidekick false prophet upon His second and only return.

I imagine this is where pre-tribbers try to force a third and sometimes even fourth coming of Christ in order to make the pre-trib rapture work.

The rapture is conclusively post-tribulation after taking all verses into account.

" The rapture is conclusively post-tribulation after taking all verses into account."

Ok do just that.
Take the rapture verses into account.

You have never done that.

Bizarre.

 

[Runningman]

Did you notice the first coming has two phases to it? The Lord came, was born, died, resurrected, ascended, then came back down again and taught them for 40 days, then ascended again.

There is only a singular visible/bodily ascension to heaven done by Jesus. He has not returned "in like manner" yet.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Have you actually read luke 12 ?

Please re read it.

[plz include reading v.35... as I have done... so you can follow along with what I've put below]

There is nothing there to form a wedding on earth doctrine.

I'm not saying "the wedding" takes place on the earth. I'm saying "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom (whose "wedding" ALREADY took place in Heaven), b/c this text (and its parallels) are "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" passages.

And several of those types of contexts speak of the "LAMPS LIT" thing, which in past posts I've explained this speaks to the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period (i.e. the TRIB yrs), aka "the NIGHT WATCHES"... IOW, the "LAMPS LIT" takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" earthly time-period...

And this "LAMPS LIT" issue hails back to references in Scripture such as the following (bearing in mind my posts re: how Matt24:14 / 26:13 speak of that which will be being preached in the future trib years, FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [after the Lord removes all of the "LIGHT BULBS," so to speak [i.e. "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"], and then the "IN THE NIGHT" [/trib yrs] begins to unfold upon the earth):

[quoting a small portion of those past posts]

[...]
6) Zechariah 4:14 -
"Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." [SEE Rev11:14 "Lord of the earth"]


7) Zechariah 6:5 -
"And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth." [again, SEE Rev11:14 "Lord of the earth"]

"olive-trees" (one word in Hebrew, in the passages below) -

The same word (singular word in Hebrew) that is used in Zech4:3 and 4:11 (translated there as "olive trees [H2132 - zayith/zê-ṯîm (one word)]") is also used in the following two passages (at bottom):

(which goes along with my posts re: the study of the "[olive] oil" and "the lamps LIT" and "in the night"/"the night watches" [and Matt24:14/26:13 (IN/DURING the trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), Matt25:1-13/Matt22:9-14, and Lk12:35,36,37,38,40,42-44,45-48"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal [G347]; etc...])


Exodus 27:20-21 -

The Oil for the Lamps
(Leviticus 24:1–4)

20 And you are to command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed [/beaten] olives [H2132] for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.
21 In the Tent of Meeting, outside the veil that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a permanent statute for the Israelites for the generations to come.


Leviticus 24:2-3 -

The Oil for the Lamps
(Exodus 27:20–21)

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 “Command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed [/beaten] olives [H2132] for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually.
3 Outside the veil of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, Aaron is to tend the lamps continually before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a permanent statute for the generations to come. 4 He shall tend the lamps on the pure gold lampstand before the LORD continually.

[end quoting brief excerpts from old post]

____________

I realize you do not agree with me that Jesus is NOT coming to "MARRY" those in these texts (and their parallels) which I've pointed out in that post, but instead will be "RETURNING" to the earth as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom ("WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] His BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" which pertains to "the MARRIAGE" itself, having ALREADY TAKEN PLACE *in Heaven" at this point in the chronology, which is His Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth point in time. He's ALREADY-WED by that point!

I'm NOT saying He's RETURNING to the EARTH "FOR the wedding/the MARRIAGE"... NO. NOT what I said or pointed out, at all). The ppl in these texts (both the "saved" persons and the "unsaved" persons) will be still-located on the earth UPON His "RETURN" there, and the "saved" ones (having come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will ENTER the *earthly* MK age "with [G3326 - accompanying] Him" [not "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" as we are said to be [and will ALREADY B, by that point in the chronology--i.e. Rev19, His "RETURN" to the earth... as ALREADY-WED, not "TO BE wed" at that point ])

 

[Runningman]

You omitted " like manner"

But then again it is hazardous to your position.

Too bad you guys can not be forced to debate the rapture verses

Acts 1
Rev 14 held against 1 thes 4

.....and all the others.

You and postribbers WILL NOT go there.

Omitting our verses while claiming this and that is not an honest debate.

I said "Jesus will return the same way He left."

Are you just looking for hairs to split?