50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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FreeGrace2 said:
In fact, NONE of the rapture verses mentions going to heaven. But that is the pre-trib view of the rapture.
FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Like "supplying a text that mentions the "Trinity". Really? Don't you have a better argument?
How funny! Are you aware that there are many verses that describe The Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God? That is what proves that there is a Trinity.
However, there is NOTHING that supports a pre-trib rapture with a trip up to heaven.
So, while you thought you had me, you weren't even close.
The Trinity is PROVABLE in Scripture.
A pre-trib rapture back up to heaven is NOT.
I thought my point was rather clear.
You keep claiming "it is in Scripture", but you seem to be having great difficulty in actually citing or quoting ANY verse that shows that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.
So, since you claim that the truth is that "it is in Scripture", why don't you just quote the verse, so that at least everyone else who reads this forum will see that I am wrong, all wet, over the hill, etc.
To claim it's there but I can't see it is nothing other than condescending.
The real truth is that you don't have such a verse. Or you would have simply quoted it and ended all argument.
All we've been doing is going round in circles, with me claiming there are NO verses that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven, and you claiming it is in Scripture but I just can't see it.
If you COULD HAVE proven your claim, you WOULD HAVE by now.
So, final time, WHERE is the verse that shows that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven?
Either end this silly argument, or admit that you can't.
In fact, NONE of the rapture verses mentions going to heaven. But that is the pre-trib view of the rapture.
FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Like "supplying a text that mentions the "Trinity". Really? Don't you have a better argument?
How funny! Are you aware that there are many verses that describe The Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God? That is what proves that there is a Trinity.
However, there is NOTHING that supports a pre-trib rapture with a trip up to heaven.
So, while you thought you had me, you weren't even close.
The Trinity is PROVABLE in Scripture.
A pre-trib rapture back up to heaven is NOT.
I thought my point was rather clear.
You keep claiming "it is in Scripture", but you seem to be having great difficulty in actually citing or quoting ANY verse that shows that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.
So, since you claim that the truth is that "it is in Scripture", why don't you just quote the verse, so that at least everyone else who reads this forum will see that I am wrong, all wet, over the hill, etc.
To claim it's there but I can't see it is nothing other than condescending.
The real truth is that you don't have such a verse. Or you would have simply quoted it and ended all argument.
All we've been doing is going round in circles, with me claiming there are NO verses that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven, and you claiming it is in Scripture but I just can't see it.
If you COULD HAVE proven your claim, you WOULD HAVE by now.
So, final time, WHERE is the verse that shows that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven?
Either end this silly argument, or admit that you can't.
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Unless youve misunderstood the scriptures.
Someone is right and someone is wrong here. I'm going with the scripture on this one where there is a single coming of Jesus on the clouds with His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation. Matthew 13 confirms it, Matthew 24 & 25 confirm it, 1 & 2 Thessalonians confirm it, Revelation confirms it. A study of the first resurrection confirms it.
I'm fully convinced by the scriptures the rapture and resurrection occur together at the second coming of Christ after the great tribulation.
Someone is right and someone is wrong here. I'm going with the scripture on this one where there is a single coming of Jesus on the clouds with His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation. Matthew 13 confirms it, Matthew 24 & 25 confirm it, 1 & 2 Thessalonians confirm it, Revelation confirms it. A study of the first resurrection confirms it.
I'm fully convinced by the scriptures the rapture and resurrection occur together at the second coming of Christ after the great tribulation.
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FreeGrace2 said:
If you did, you you would know that there are no verses or passages that make clear the idea that Jesus comes "in the clouds", then resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, then changes all living saints, and then takes them all up to heaven.
Those who HAVE checked everything out already know that.
To hopefully get through to those who expect to miss the Trib that they are wrong. They believe something that the Bible DOES NOT SAY, TEACH, OR EVEN HINT AT.
But I have a question. In your bolded statement above, are you quoting me? If so, what post #. I wouldn't have said "brings them right back to the earth". I am arguing against the pre-trib view that Jesus takes raptured believers back to heaven.
However, at the Second advent, Jesus comes in the clouds, resurrects the dead saints, who came with Him, raptures and changes all the living believers on the earth, and then DOES take them ALL to earth, where He ends Armageddon, and then sets up His kingdom, with all the saints serving in His kingdom.
But focus on the pre-trib claim: raptured belevers are taken to heaven before the Trib. Are there any? If so, QUOTE them, please.
If you did, you you would know that there are no verses or passages that make clear the idea that Jesus comes "in the clouds", then resurrects the bodies of all dead saints, then changes all living saints, and then takes them all up to heaven.
Those who HAVE checked everything out already know that.
To hopefully get through to those who expect to miss the Trib that they are wrong. They believe something that the Bible DOES NOT SAY, TEACH, OR EVEN HINT AT.
But I have a question. In your bolded statement above, are you quoting me? If so, what post #. I wouldn't have said "brings them right back to the earth". I am arguing against the pre-trib view that Jesus takes raptured believers back to heaven.
However, at the Second advent, Jesus comes in the clouds, resurrects the dead saints, who came with Him, raptures and changes all the living believers on the earth, and then DOES take them ALL to earth, where He ends Armageddon, and then sets up His kingdom, with all the saints serving in His kingdom.
But focus on the pre-trib claim: raptured belevers are taken to heaven before the Trib. Are there any? If so, QUOTE them, please.
Okay, but my question had been, show me a passage that states "SECOND advent" (just like you are requiring there to be a passage stating "a particular thing WORDED in a way that you are satisfied")
[hint: NO TEXT states "SECOND advent"
]
I did "connect [a ton of] dots"... you just don't want to view them in the way I've pointed out about them:
--"...if not shall have come THE Departure *FIRST*" = "...restraining AT PRESENT, ... UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be]" = "what is restraining IN ORDER THAT"
(ALL ^ speaking of v.1's "noun-event" i.e. "our" EXIT [TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR]), BEFORE the time-period known as "the DOTL" can BE PRESENT / BE HERE to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (i.e. in the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period), and JUDGMENTs unfolding over the course of SOME TIME (leading UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth, aka His "MANIFESTATION [v.8b]" / "OPENLY MANIFEST" Rev19 point-in-time, when "EVERY eye" shall see Him);
--Rev5:9 [similarly worded to 1:6] "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood OUT-OF EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and v.10 further stating, "and they shall reign on the earth"... where in this passage/context, they are sitting on "THRONES" and wearing "stephanon/crowns" (which Paul said he would be awarded "IN THAT DAY"--not the day he DIED--and adds, "not to [him] only")... in a context (5:4) using the word "WAS FOUND" indicating that a "searching judgment" has already been concluded (as was used re: Paul before their earthly/human "bema" in latter part of Acts)... and in a context when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" 5:6, Isa3:13, etc [by opening the FIRST SEAL]);
--Heb9:8-9a "By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest [G5319], the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" of v.4] yet having A STANDING [stasin / stasis], which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT time" (and we know that "PARABLES" were given BY Jesus, for a specific reason... and that not everyone in the world is going to "grasp" it... [think: 2Th2:10-12, during the trib yrs, i.e. FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure"])
--[gotta run! OUTTA TIME, for now! (but... see my numerous other posts, on this... ) ]
[hint: NO TEXT states "SECOND advent"
]I did "connect [a ton of] dots"... you just don't want to view them in the way I've pointed out about them:
--"...if not shall have come THE Departure *FIRST*" = "...restraining AT PRESENT, ... UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be]" = "what is restraining IN ORDER THAT"
(ALL ^ speaking of v.1's "noun-event" i.e. "our" EXIT [TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR]), BEFORE the time-period known as "the DOTL" can BE PRESENT / BE HERE to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (i.e. in the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period), and JUDGMENTs unfolding over the course of SOME TIME (leading UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth, aka His "MANIFESTATION [v.8b]" / "OPENLY MANIFEST" Rev19 point-in-time, when "EVERY eye" shall see Him);
--Rev5:9 [similarly worded to 1:6] "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood OUT-OF EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and v.10 further stating, "and they shall reign on the earth"... where in this passage/context, they are sitting on "THRONES" and wearing "stephanon/crowns" (which Paul said he would be awarded "IN THAT DAY"--not the day he DIED--and adds, "not to [him] only")... in a context (5:4) using the word "WAS FOUND" indicating that a "searching judgment" has already been concluded (as was used re: Paul before their earthly/human "bema" in latter part of Acts)... and in a context when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" 5:6, Isa3:13, etc [by opening the FIRST SEAL]);
--Heb9:8-9a "By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest [G5319], the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" of v.4] yet having A STANDING [stasin / stasis], which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT time" (and we know that "PARABLES" were given BY Jesus, for a specific reason... and that not everyone in the world is going to "grasp" it... [think: 2Th2:10-12, during the trib yrs, i.e. FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure"])
--[gotta run! OUTTA TIME, for now! (but... see my numerous other posts, on this...
) ]-
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Not in the slightest. If you study all the rapture verses and compare them with the Second Advent verses, the commonalities are more than any so-called differences.
You have ZERO verses that say that John "saw raptured church" in heaven. That's just your opinion. By that time, the VAST majority of the church WILL already be in heaven.
Why don't you include verses that support your claim here? What you are implying is that there are several resurrections of believers, but that is not supported by any Scripture.
Nope. The rapture, or better, the gathering, ends the Tribulation. We call it the Second Advent.[/QUOTE]
The sole issue is whether raptures the living believers and takes them back to heaven. I have found NO VERSE that says that.
The SOLE issue Then why did you write this: A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching. It seems you have other "issues."
Then why your laughter? And the question. Because 2 Thes. 2:1 is only Paul's THEME for the passage. And EVERYONE knows Jesus must come before the rapture can take place. You thought that verse answered some question.
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Here is the post:
Lamad said: "If the 1 Thes 4 coming is after the trib, prove it by scripture. Just someone believing something is no proof."
You said: "Easy. 2 Thess 2:1 The order is very clear. "
I understand, if someone believes there is only ONE MORE coming, then when they see the word "coming" it MUST refer to that one more coming. Got it. But I think the bible is clear there are TWO more comings: first a coming (1 Thes 4) FOR His bride, then another coming WITH His bride (Rev, 19) So your verse answers nothing. That is why I laughed.
Why the question?
Lamad wrote: "OF COURSE He comes first, then there is a shout and a trumpet...and then the dead in Christ are caught up. But WHEN? People look in all the wrong places for WHEN. Paul is the only one that gives us WHEN for this event: just before wrath."
Again I understand, this would all be confusing to someone who only sees one more coming. But what do the scriptures tell us? Have you mediated on 1 Thes. 5? Do you really understand Paul's intent there? I think Paul tells us TIMING for the rapture: JUST BEFORE the start of Wrath. If so, how could there possibly be only one more coming? The entire 70th week is wrath. How could anyone believe wrath comes ONLY when Jesus comes? I cannot understand that.
The DOTL begins at the Second Advent How about we see what the scriptures tell us about when"
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Do you agree with me that this verse tells us the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord has come? Did you take note that this is in chapter 6 and His coming to Armageddon is in chapter 19? All the events of chapters 8 through 16 happen BETWEEN. How then can ANYONE day that the DOTL begins when Jesus comes? Will you take a seal from the book and move it to chapter 16 to make your theory work?
Just so you will always know: the Day of the Lord starts before the 70th week so that the ENTIRE WEEK comes with God's wrath. And the rapture comes before any part of the wrath. Paul hints strongly that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of His wrath. Where is this in Revelation?
Rev. 5:6 gives us the timing of the first seals: Jesus ascension and His sending the Holy Spirit down: AD 32 or close. So the first seal is the church sent out with the gospel.
Seals 2-4 are the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age.
They are told that judgment (God's wrath?) cannot come until the final martyr is killed. That, my friend, is a HINT to the timing of the rapture. It will be the rapture that ENDS the church age and STARTS the Day of the Lord.
In Revelation then, the rapture will come just before the 6th seal is opened to begin Wrath.
In summary, the DOTL starts LONG before Jesus return in chapter 19 - over 7 years before. Will you admit this?
You are confused. When Jesus returns, you bet there will be "sudden destruction" Anyone can guess what happens at Armageddon. It won't be pretty! But sorry, you are miles off from scripture. How do you do that? Imagination?
The ONLY PLACE we find "sudden destruction" is in Paul's rapture passage. I understand, since you imagine only one more coming, EVERYTHING has to happen then! It is CRUNCH time! In reality, much of what you imagine happens then actually is divided into TWO comings. Don't take my word for it: Go and study! Paul's rapture is back to back with the Day of the Lord. It cannot be moved anywhere. Neither can the Day of the Lord be moved anywhere. John placed it before the 70th week. NO one has the right to move it - especially to fit some false theory. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong.
Not in the slightest. (the rapture timed to wrath)
Let's see what the scriptures say: Three (3) verses after Paul's classic rapture verse of the Lord catching up of those who are alive and in Christ:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Now why in the world would Paul mention the Day of the Lord just three verses after those alive and remaining being caught up - UNLESS the Day of the Lord comes right after the rapture? Then it would make sense.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Now why in the world would Paul mention "sudden destruction: just four verses after those alive and remaining being caught up - UNLESS the "sudden Destruction: was associated with and comes right after the rapture? Then it would make sense.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Now, why in the world would Paul mention us not being appointed to wrath in his classic rapture passage - that is UNLESS wrath follows rapture?
I understand, you want all this to come in the Rev. 19 coming. Sorry, it does not fit Revelation. It doesn't fit anything scriptural because God is pretrib and we are going to be out of here before wrath.
I am trying to understand you: if you WANT to see the Antichrist, and if you WANT to be overcome, fine: I think God gives us the desires of our heart. But my friend, God has an ESCAPE plan!
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Why not, rather than argue against this escape plan, why not plan on TAKING it? You and all of us have a choice: we can be EXPECTING and LOOKING FOR His coming today and tomorrow, so we will be found watching - or we can be left behind to be overcome. I would wrath be found expecting and looking for HIM!
Can you honestly tell me that if Jesus showed up tonight for His bride, that you would not be shocked?
You have ZERO verses that say that John "saw raptured church" in heaven. That's just your opinion. By that time, the VAST majority of the church WILL already be in heaven.
Why don't you include verses that support your claim here? What you are implying is that there are several resurrections of believers, but that is not supported by any Scripture.
Nope. The rapture, or better, the gathering, ends the Tribulation. We call it the Second Advent.[/QUOTE]
The sole issue is whether raptures the living believers and takes them back to heaven. I have found NO VERSE that says that.
The SOLE issue Then why did you write this: A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching. It seems you have other "issues."
Then why your laughter? And the question. Because 2 Thes. 2:1 is only Paul's THEME for the passage. And EVERYONE knows Jesus must come before the rapture can take place. You thought that verse answered some question.
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Here is the post:
Lamad said: "If the 1 Thes 4 coming is after the trib, prove it by scripture. Just someone believing something is no proof."
You said: "Easy. 2 Thess 2:1 The order is very clear. "
I understand, if someone believes there is only ONE MORE coming, then when they see the word "coming" it MUST refer to that one more coming. Got it. But I think the bible is clear there are TWO more comings: first a coming (1 Thes 4) FOR His bride, then another coming WITH His bride (Rev, 19) So your verse answers nothing. That is why I laughed.
Why the question?
Lamad wrote: "OF COURSE He comes first, then there is a shout and a trumpet...and then the dead in Christ are caught up. But WHEN? People look in all the wrong places for WHEN. Paul is the only one that gives us WHEN for this event: just before wrath."
Again I understand, this would all be confusing to someone who only sees one more coming. But what do the scriptures tell us? Have you mediated on 1 Thes. 5? Do you really understand Paul's intent there? I think Paul tells us TIMING for the rapture: JUST BEFORE the start of Wrath. If so, how could there possibly be only one more coming? The entire 70th week is wrath. How could anyone believe wrath comes ONLY when Jesus comes? I cannot understand that.
The DOTL begins at the Second Advent How about we see what the scriptures tell us about when"
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Do you agree with me that this verse tells us the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord has come? Did you take note that this is in chapter 6 and His coming to Armageddon is in chapter 19? All the events of chapters 8 through 16 happen BETWEEN. How then can ANYONE day that the DOTL begins when Jesus comes? Will you take a seal from the book and move it to chapter 16 to make your theory work?
Just so you will always know: the Day of the Lord starts before the 70th week so that the ENTIRE WEEK comes with God's wrath. And the rapture comes before any part of the wrath. Paul hints strongly that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of His wrath. Where is this in Revelation?
Rev. 5:6 gives us the timing of the first seals: Jesus ascension and His sending the Holy Spirit down: AD 32 or close. So the first seal is the church sent out with the gospel.
Seals 2-4 are the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age.
They are told that judgment (God's wrath?) cannot come until the final martyr is killed. That, my friend, is a HINT to the timing of the rapture. It will be the rapture that ENDS the church age and STARTS the Day of the Lord.
In Revelation then, the rapture will come just before the 6th seal is opened to begin Wrath.
In summary, the DOTL starts LONG before Jesus return in chapter 19 - over 7 years before. Will you admit this?
You are confused. When Jesus returns, you bet there will be "sudden destruction" Anyone can guess what happens at Armageddon. It won't be pretty! But sorry, you are miles off from scripture. How do you do that? Imagination?
The ONLY PLACE we find "sudden destruction" is in Paul's rapture passage. I understand, since you imagine only one more coming, EVERYTHING has to happen then! It is CRUNCH time! In reality, much of what you imagine happens then actually is divided into TWO comings. Don't take my word for it: Go and study! Paul's rapture is back to back with the Day of the Lord. It cannot be moved anywhere. Neither can the Day of the Lord be moved anywhere. John placed it before the 70th week. NO one has the right to move it - especially to fit some false theory. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong.
Not in the slightest. (the rapture timed to wrath)
Let's see what the scriptures say: Three (3) verses after Paul's classic rapture verse of the Lord catching up of those who are alive and in Christ:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Now why in the world would Paul mention the Day of the Lord just three verses after those alive and remaining being caught up - UNLESS the Day of the Lord comes right after the rapture? Then it would make sense.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Now why in the world would Paul mention "sudden destruction: just four verses after those alive and remaining being caught up - UNLESS the "sudden Destruction: was associated with and comes right after the rapture? Then it would make sense.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Now, why in the world would Paul mention us not being appointed to wrath in his classic rapture passage - that is UNLESS wrath follows rapture?
I understand, you want all this to come in the Rev. 19 coming. Sorry, it does not fit Revelation. It doesn't fit anything scriptural because God is pretrib and we are going to be out of here before wrath.
I am trying to understand you: if you WANT to see the Antichrist, and if you WANT to be overcome, fine: I think God gives us the desires of our heart. But my friend, God has an ESCAPE plan!
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Why not, rather than argue against this escape plan, why not plan on TAKING it? You and all of us have a choice: we can be EXPECTING and LOOKING FOR His coming today and tomorrow, so we will be found watching - or we can be left behind to be overcome. I would wrath be found expecting and looking for HIM!
Can you honestly tell me that if Jesus showed up tonight for His bride, that you would not be shocked?
It is a fact of scripture that He comes to the clouds. This is juxtaposed with His coming in Rev. 19 where "every eye will see Him: as lightning flashing across a dark sky. It is just as much of a fact that the dead in Christ will rise. When we establish from Paul WHEN - just before the Day of His wrath - it makes your theory impossible.
There is NO VERSE ANYWHERE that says Jesus takes the raptured church back down to earth. That is false doctrine.
(See? We can write nonsensical stuff too.)
There is NO VERSE ANYWHERE that says Jesus takes the raptured church back down to earth. That is false doctrine.
(See? We can write nonsensical stuff too.)
Runningman wrote: "Someone is right and someone is wrong here. I'm going with the scripture on this one where there is a single coming of Jesus on the clouds with His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation. "
Sorry, there is no verse anywhere that says Jesus comes on the clouds, Paul's rapture happens, immediately after the tribulation. That is false doctrine.
Sorry, there is no verse anywhere that says Jesus comes on the clouds, Paul's rapture happens, immediately after the tribulation. That is false doctrine.
There is no single verse ANYWHERE that proves either a pretrib, prewrath, or posttrib rapture. NONE.
But taken as a whole, all the end times scriptures prove ONE theory far above all others. I suggest you know all the pretrib scriptures, but just like to argue.
It is very simple, if you wish to IGNORE God's escape plan, be our guest! I'll check with you at the Marriage and see how it went for you!
Is that simple enough? I am going to take God up on His escape plan! I am going to be IN that group too large to number John saw in Rev. 7, before any part of the 70th week. You can be a part of those showing up in heaven in Rev. 15. Deal?
But taken as a whole, all the end times scriptures prove ONE theory far above all others. I suggest you know all the pretrib scriptures, but just like to argue.
It is very simple, if you wish to IGNORE God's escape plan, be our guest! I'll check with you at the Marriage and see how it went for you!
Is that simple enough? I am going to take God up on His escape plan! I am going to be IN that group too large to number John saw in Rev. 7, before any part of the 70th week. You can be a part of those showing up in heaven in Rev. 15. Deal?
Uh, no
Direct revelation is the normal christian walk.
You do not counsel with God????
You do not know/ hear his voice?
The word does speak to us.
It also CONFIRMS what Jesus is personally in CONVERSATION talking to us.
Many times i will hear the Holy Spirit saying " read it again".
And i may hear that several times.
So i get quiet and eventually the spirit shows me what i am not seeing.
For example...i once asked (about 30 years ago).." Why did it have to be God on the cross"?
That was my question
The Holy Spirit showed me one day.
He showed mr through a verse in Galations.
No believer or pastor could answer that question.
" why did it have to be God"
Why not a good man?
God found no fault in daniel.
Just let that good man be the sacrifice.
God could do anything. He is God.
Even Jesus asked if there be some other way.
Direct revelation is the normal christian walk.
You do not counsel with God????
You do not know/ hear his voice?
The word does speak to us.
It also CONFIRMS what Jesus is personally in CONVERSATION talking to us.
Many times i will hear the Holy Spirit saying " read it again".
And i may hear that several times.
So i get quiet and eventually the spirit shows me what i am not seeing.
For example...i once asked (about 30 years ago).." Why did it have to be God on the cross"?
That was my question
The Holy Spirit showed me one day.
He showed mr through a verse in Galations.
No believer or pastor could answer that question.
" why did it have to be God"
Why not a good man?
God found no fault in daniel.
Just let that good man be the sacrifice.
God could do anything. He is God.
Even Jesus asked if there be some other way.
"""Are you kidding? I wasn't speaking about those who WROTE the Scripture, obviously. I was speaking about those NOW who claim "direct revelation". They are quite deluded, and just full of themselves."""
We are guaranteed a personal relationship.
Hearing his voice is just part of the daily walk.
If you never hear Jesus talk then your God is abstract. Not personal.
The catholics solve the abstract by calling men " father"...a spiritual go between.
But for a protestant?
I find that amazing.
What has happened to the church?????
We are guaranteed a personal relationship.
Hearing his voice is just part of the daily walk.
If you never hear Jesus talk then your God is abstract. Not personal.
The catholics solve the abstract by calling men " father"...a spiritual go between.
But for a protestant?
I find that amazing.
What has happened to the church?????
This Thread was started by another RAPTURE BELIEVER, a friend of mine. I am here to Support him, and the EVANGELICAL Position on this Subject. You are the outsider. WE BELIEVE, Christ being a Jew, is going through the exact order of a Jewish Wedding Proposal, and the Wedding in HIS FATHER"S HOUSE, and ends with a traditional MARRIAGE SUPPER IN HIS HIS FATHER'S HOUSE, and we could care less how many of your persuasion want to object, as we will still BELIEVE IN THE RAPTURE or as I like to call it, the CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE OF CHRIST, a FULL 100%, PERIOD.